I’ve noticed in quite many posts that people seem to be confused about the difference between passing moral judgments on others, and simply having personal preferences or beliefs.

These are two entirely different things. Yet people can’t seem to separate them.

Recently a member claimed that he had me “Nailed to the wall as being judgmental of others”. His reasoning was simply because I have personal preferences and choices that others do not agree with. Therefore, he erroneously concludes that I’m somehow passing “moral judgments” on those who disagree with me.

This is incorrect thinking.

There is a HUGE difference between holding views that are differnet from others, and passing ‘moral judgments’ on others.

For example, I’m not gay. For me personally, the thought of being sexually intimate with another man is totally repugnant, even putrid. This is a personal preference. It’s not a moral judgment on others. It would only be a judgment on others if I were to claim that being gay is somehow ‘morally wrong’ for everyone.

When we speak in terms of passing ‘judgments’ with respect to religious or spiritual concepts, we are necessarily speaking about passing ‘moral judgments’ on others, we’re not simply talking about having different personal preferences or personal beliefs.

For example, if one person believes that a particular doctrine is the word of god, and other person believes that it isn’t, has any moral judgment been made? No, not at all. These are merely two different preferences or beliefs. There is no need to bring moral judgments into the matter.

However, if the person who believes in a doctrine uses that doctrine to pass MORAL judgments on others, then they most certainly are making moral judgments on other people. The fact that they are referencing doctrines to pass their judgments does not validate them. They are still passing moral judgments on others based on what they personally believe.

I pass no moral judgments on anyone. To suggest that I do is simply incorrect.

This doesn’t mean that I don’t have personal preferences or views. All it means is that my views are not ‘moral judgments’ of others. Having an opinion on something might be called a ‘judgment’, but it isn’t necessarily a ‘moral judgment’ of others. We need to be careful between this crucial difference. We all pass superficial ‘judgments’ about whether we like something or not, or whether we believe something or not. But those kinds of ‘judgments’ are not 'MORAL judgments' of others. We all need to make those everyday ‘judgments’ in order to function. There’s nothing wrong with those kinds of ‘judgments”. It’s only when judgments become ‘moral judgments’ of others that they are misplaced.

So people really need to understand the difference between merely having personal views, and using their personal views to pass ‘moral judgments’ on others.

There’s a HUGE difference.

You can believe that something is immoral for youself without having to shove that belief onto others by passing moral judgments on them based on your own beliefs. It simply isn’t required. In fact, most doctrines that teach morals also teach that they should not be used to pass judgments on others.

People really need to pay more attention to this latter lesson about not morally judging others!

Bravo James Bravo!!!

Well Abra...all of you accused us of being judgemental because you do not believe as we do. So please explain why it is so different? If we are placing judgement then so are you. Bottom line. You are judging us for what we believe if that is the case.

True Words

Yes, but it is part of our inate conditioning to conform and that all differenes are a threat out beliefs.

Abra,

You said that:
1) Christians are only Christians because that way they can make judgement against others and claim that God is on their side.
2) People who judge others are dispicable.

Both statements are examples of you judging others and are also hilariously ironic.

I don't care what your religion is or what your personal preferences are, but you judge with the best of them. And while you judge, you judge others for judging, which is very hypocritical. So while you don't say "That's a sin", you do call a person's behavior dispicable and you also make character attacks against all Christians (see point 1 above).

I think it's telling that you are trying to split hairs and say "I can judge people, because I don't say they are sinning". Well my friend, I can say someone is sinning, because I don't deny that I am a sinner. My sins are without counting and I can spot a sinner easily, because I know myself so well.

Steve wrote:
“You are judging us for what we believe if that is the case.”

Who are you referring to when you say “us”. People who pass moral judgments on others?

Spider wrote:
“My sins are without counting and I can spot a sinner easily, because I know myself so well.”

Then Invisible and others are right that people who feel that they are full of sin are the ones who feel a need to point out sin in others.

What does that accomplish? Are you trying to prove that everyone is just as big of a sinner as yourself thus making you feel better about yourself by comparison?

That’s not a healthy way to go through life Spider. It’s not healthy for you or anyone around you.

What you need to do is understand that you sins are forgiven Spider. They are behind you. You’ve owned up to them. You’ve recognized them and you have taken steps to move away from them. Don’t drag them around with you like as if they are a permanent fixture in your life. Put them behind you and move forward.

When I tell you that I am without sin I don’t mean that I have never committed a sin in my entire life. What I mean is that I am without sin today, now, in this very moment. I have nothing to ask for forgiveness for because all the asking has already been done(and answered).

Today is the first day of the rest of your life! You don’t need to drag the guilt of past sins around with you like a ball and chain for rest of your days. To do so only places you in the gawdawful position of pointing the finger of blame at others trying to bring them down to your level of misery and guilt.

You need to get past that rut Spider.

If your going to read the Bible at least move on to the NEW TESTAMENT!!!!

Please?

We are all wandering this path called life, growing, learning, looking....each giving of ourselves, and receiving.

All of us are the perfections and imperfections of this dream...

It is what makes it so beautiful...

The sum parts of the all.

Abracadabra,

Someone who believes themself to be sinless will never see the need for salvation. If someone doesn't believe themself to be a sinner, they will never seek a savior. That is my I point out that some behaviors are sins. But do I judge them? No. Homosexuality is a sin, but it's just one of the many sins I have commited. And although I have placed my sins at the foot of the cross. I know that my heart could backside and I could be what I once was again. That is why I remind myself that I'm a sinner.

Honestly, it doesn't matter how much of a sinner someone is, the Bible tells us that if you have broken one commandment, you have broken them all. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, we are all equally quilty.

I don't feel misery or guilt for my sins, I repent, lay them at the foot of the cross and move on. When I state that some action is a sin, I am (a) stating my opinion based on the Bible (b) offering awareness of sin to others. As I have said many times, if someone is unaware that they are a sinner, they will never feel the need for a savior. Without a savior, we are slaves to sin our entire lives and living in slavery to such a cruel master is no way to live at all.

===============================================================

But back to the subject at hand. I didn't lie or mischaracterize your statements when I said you were judgemental and hypocritical. It's the truth. If you don't want me to say that, then simply stop judging others OR stop attacking Christians for judging. You do it yourself and once again you have built up little rules in your religion that allows you to be sinless in your judging and call anyone else who judges, dispicable.

Everyone judges, if you didn't judge you would die. Everyone judges other people and their behaviors, you have done it in this thread and in just about every other thread. It's natural to judge, but you judge unfairly and hypocritically, which is just plain wrong.

Abra-

"What you need to do is understand that you sins are forgiven Spider. They are behind you. You’ve owned up to them. You’ve recognized them and you have taken steps to move away from them. Don’t drag them around with you like as if they are a permanent fixture in your life. Put them behind you and move forward. "

So true... don't we all need to just do the best we can and then move on?

"Heal the past,
Live the present,
Dream the future"

Unknown.

Stevewm
""Well Abra...all of you accused us of being judgemental because you do not believe as we do. So please explain why it is so different?""

Steve, I can’t speak for the others, but in my case – well let me say it this way.

I don't consider debate or discussion a forceful encounter, unless one is debating whether one’s religious doctrine belongs in our laws.

There is one area in which religious beliefs are constantly being forced upon society as a whole. The area I refer to is with regards to the law, and basic human rights, by which a society as a whole are subjects to be adhered to.

Religion and however one determines to utilize it within their personal lives, is a very subjective thing. It is personal, based on personal interpretation, personal adherence, and personal belief.

When a person is no longer able to determine the difference between; the 'personally' accepted religious doctrine that guide their individual course of actions, and the laws that uphold the freedoms and rights of a whole society to do so, then that person is forcing their personal religious doctrine on the whole of society.

It is because our basic human rights and individual freedoms are so far reaching that everyone is entitled to act in accordance with those morals derived through personal beliefs.

If your beliefs dictate that you can not have an abortion, you don't have to get one, likewise; if homosexuality through the eyes of your doctrine is wrong, don't practice it, if murder is wrong and your doctrine tells you to turn the other cheek, than why go to war and kill people? Clearly doing so is against your values, yet poeple will give them up, ignore them, because they want to save a country in which they are free to decide what doctrine they choose to subscribe too.

So its ok, to murder if it allows one to maintain the freedom to believe that murder is wrong, yet there is an unwillingness to extend the same opportunity of such choices under equal treatment and disbursement of those same laws to others.

The scenario that many Christians are attempting to create is the same scenario that the Jews fought to have under the Roman Empire. When the Hebrews discovered that they could not, by law, punish Jesus through violent means, they turned to the government, to Caesar, to force a judgment. When one could not be passed, as no crime was committed in the eyes of the law, the Hebrews, created crimes by which the Empire could "effectively deal" with Jesus, to the Hebrews' satisfaction.

In other words, those Christians who desire to adjust the laws of a country to be exactly the same as their doctrine are asking the legal system to judge others based on conditions that offer no freedom of choice.

YOU don't like what another is doing, because it offends your doctrine; therefore, deny the rights of that person to have a different doctrine by creating laws that substantiate your own.
That's the view I oppose, and I feel there is no judgement made by me, in having that view. The judgemen is totally in the court of the Christians to fight for such laws.

Anyone who denies this to be anything other than manipulative actions designed to 'force' others into adherence with your own personal beliefs, obviously has no ability to differentiate between their religious doctrine and the laws that govern a free and equal society. It's also obvious that these people uphold and live by such codes that allow for bigotry, hate, double standards and manipulation.

These are the forces that the rational factions of societies must attempt to deal with. It's difficult to fight the forces of prejudice and hate and bigotry, when those who are the recipients of such treatment are fearful of retribution and others simply don't care, as long as they never encounter the inequity themselves.

That does not meant the inequity doesn't exist, it means that inequity that's allowed to flourish, will eventually strike even those who showed no concern for the laws of a free and equal society.

NOW, as one so boldly stated; “you are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem”.

To me; being a part of the solution means that you actively seek to correct the corruption in our laws that allow the injustice of inequality to prevail.

If you are not doing this, than no matter what words you speak of tolerance, you are automatically a part of the problem.

If you consider, that, a judgment, then perhaps it’s deserved.

Any freedom fighter, any person who has ever freely served in the military, will tell you, that freedom has a price and the lazy who pay it only lip service, are not meeting their quota.

So how shall you be judged? In the ranks of those Christians who find their doctrine to be a socially sound model of moral righteousness for a free and equal society? or will you be judged among the lazy? And who should care if it's your rights that are infringed tomorrow?

Missbehaving
“but it is part of our inate conditioning to conform and that all differenes are a threat out beliefs.”

Inate as in hereditary or as in part of our design?

Are you referring to the conditioning of religious doctrine?

What I see of the human condition clearly identifies that each is an individual. It is the nature of individuality to develop in non-constrictive and non-comforming ways. It is only those tight conventions such as religion that seek to condition that out of the human equation.

Amen!
Amen!
Amen!

Damn! 'redy', you've been set FREE!!!

VERY MOVING!

Lee,

"We are all wandering this path called life, growing, learning, looking....each giving of ourselves, and receiving.

All of us are the perfections and imperfections of this dream...

It is what makes it so beautiful...

The sum parts of the all."

very lovely!

MM - kinda reminds me of some verse from some book - something like,

if thy right eye offends thee cut it out.

What's one less part?

mind you, that's not MY opinion, well, ok, I have to admit, if my right arm was causing children to be harmed, I'd cut it off. Beauty is in the eye the beholder, that arm held no beauty as long as I allowed to cause harm.

I don't know Voil, it's kinda scary to me. I've never been on this kind of roll before. It just so happens that these same discussions are happening in other forums I write in. So I guess, it's just in my focus right now.

Redy-

You're on fire tonight!

"It's difficult to fight the forces of prejudice and hate and bigotry, when those who are the recipients of such treatment are fearful of retribution and others simply don't care, as long as they never encounter the inequity themselves."

~~~~
I try never to forget, "those who do not demur are assumed to assent"...

In other words, keeping your mouth shut in the face of prejudice and bigotry actually *encourages* it to continue.

anoasis,

nice addition, I had forgotten that piece of wisdom.

Red...i've said it before..you are very polite in these discussions...you don't point fingers as some here do...you don't call me stupid and ignorant because of what i believe.

Abra however just flat out passes judgement...our thinking is wrong according to his law. If we say we don't believe in such and such we then are passing judgement according to abra and a few others on here. I say define judgement and then stand back and take a long look at yourselves.

DD wrote:
“In other words, keeping your mouth shut in the face of prejudice and bigotry actually *encourages* it to continue.”

Thank you for posting this. I was very reluctant about starting this thread. I didn’t want to be seen as someone who is attempting to perpetuate arguments. However, it was the very thoughts that you speak of that inspired my fingers to type the OP.

To walk away without addressing the problem would be to accept defeat and hand bigotry a simply unearned victory.

To not stand up against bigotry is to accept it.

It’s not acceptable because it rapes the freedom of individuals.

Yet bigots cry foul when they here this.

They say, “You’re just a bigot against bigotry! What a hypocrite!”

But that argument holds no water.

Bigotry is telling other people how to LIVE.

Telling people to stop telling other people how to live is NOT bigotry!

It’s just the reverse of bigotry.

It’s called tolerance and acceptance.

Screaming that it’s just “Bigotry against bigotry” and therefore represents hypocrisy is hogwash!