It all comes down to one thing: Love

How can I expect anyone to love me if I don't love myself.
And how can I love my neighbours when I don't love myself.
You will find that someone who constantly complains about others hating him usually has no love for himself.
We have to learn to love ourselves, then it is easy to love others, too. Then we have no difficulties to accept others as they are.

"You will find that someone who constantly complains about others hating him usually has no love for himself. "

Uh oh, that sounds like judging to me. Let's ask the judges... Oh sorry, the judges say that you are judging. Welcome to the human race, here are your consolation prizes.

Good morning.

yeah...I am so just gonna stick to the fun stuff..people can't do nuttin but fight and argue over stupid sh*it...think about it..does any of it really matter in the end..all you're going to end up with is an empty planet devoid of all human life because some has to be right and someone has to be wrong...go ahead continue to spit acidic words at each other , continue to lead to the demise of man kind...

Topic: Right Or Wrong
ChubbyCherubPoet
38313_8492_thumb
Joined Fri 10/06/06
Posts: 16980

Fri 09/28/07 02:05 PM
Who's right
Who's wrong
My religion is better than yours, its the right path, your's is wrong
My political views are the right way, your's are wrong
I have more money than you do
My sexual preference is right, your's wrong

Does it really matter??
Who's right
Who's wrong
Fighting over words and actions
And in the end
The innocent lie dead in the streets
Blood spilled over opinions
Covering the land
Soaking into the soil

Every strike
Every blow
Every bomb
Every gun
Is felt
And the Mother trembles
The Father quakes
Man kind..continues on
Arguing and fighting
Innocent still die
Blood is still spilled

How long will it go on
Until we are all gone??
Until not one human soul remains
All over words and stupid actions
Over who is wrong and who is right
And in the end..
It doesn't even matter...........

grrr...i was truly enjoying this thread, if only for the value of knowing how others think...

redy, your words have moved me, deeply.

A very late good morning to you Lee.

Lulu, I am most happy that you have found something worthy in my words. Thank you for saying so.

I agree with Lulu.... I am sorry the thread is gone.... there were many interesting perspectives...

There was also some unpleasentness... such is life... if it's sunny every day I long for rain... including the thunder and lightning...


~~~~~~~~~

Poet

~~~~~~~~~

Redy- I thought the analogy between "choices" was very evocative.

Don't hate me Red:
I agree with you in the sense that an homosexual behavior is a choice, preference (whatever u wanna call it) driven for different factors. I agree also with the fact that it's hard to be openly homosexual when a society judges you.
Nevertheless, as far as I truely and honestly believe, and please don't consider me judgmental, but homesexuality is a sin.
However, I'm also a sinner.
And I would be a bigger sinner if i don't love you or if i judge you because of your chosen lifestyle.
One day u asked me what father Hugo thinks about homosexual:
ANd I told u that he says that they are my brothers and sisters as anybody else.

In a moment of frustration, I posted..I have grown weary of the words of anger, judgement and general disaray of some threads..and in that moment of frustration my words hurt , hurt people I care about..for this I apologize, as it was not my intent to hurt anyone...I need to find the calm before posting when faced with frustration.

Redy;

I just found your post. I had written an extremely lengthy response to Voil's request that I address what I had written to you concerning choice. I will attempt to condense it.

I agree with what you stated that the acting on the urge is the choice - not necessarily the urge itself. That is the differnce I was attempting to point out. My choice of "murder" as an analogy was only done to demonstrate thru extremes how the process of acting on an urge is similar. I was not equating the severity of the act - merely the similarity in process. I do not quantify - or qualify a "sinful" act. Lying is wrong - murder is wrong. They are both sins. While we can agree there is a tremendous difference in their severity, that does not make one action "more wrong" than the other. The consequences of the actions may, and surely would have different long term effects - but in terms of being wrong - they are equal. I believe that you grasped my understanding of choice by what you have posted here - however the conclusion that because I see the action as a choice - does not mean I see the urge as being "self-condeming". What ever initial desires we may have do not come about by our "wishing for it" as it were. So - in that I would tend to agree that this could be inherant. But once the urge has identified itself, however natural or correct it may seem to act upon it - that is where choice comes into play.

As to your question - I am an oddity. I live my life totally outside the grasp of our government. I pay my taxes because I believe it to be right. However I do not believe the govenment is a consciencious steward of the money I contribue to it. If I were told I could not benefit by the governments benefits - as it were - if I did not denounce my "religion" (which I translate into beliefs, because I do not support organized religions) than so be it. I could care less if the government considers me married to my spouse. My understanding of marriage has nothing to do with a cerimony and registering with city hall. That has nothing to do with marriage. You are married in the eyes of God when you consumate the love you feel. Or when two become one. At that point - you are married, whether city hall sanctions it or not. And don't think that as a believer I do not suffer injustice. On every job interview I go on - I express to the interviewer that I am a Christian. In the past 5 years alone, I have been refused employment on 4 of every 5 interviews because I have this view. The majority of these "bigots" are the education field. You will NOT be hired in the education field if you are a self proclaimed Christian. But I never hear any rallying cries over this injustice. In the state I grew up in - you will be hired as a instructer if you are G or L long before a self proclaimed Christian. This is what has happened in this country.

So - in response to your question - I choose my Savior Jesus Christ before anything in my life. Government, job, even family. Despite the threat or consequence - I live my life totally by faith. It's part of everything I do. And there isn't a single person who I meet or work with that I do not tell them that I am a devoted Christian. Is the same to me as telling them my name. But that's just the way I have become.

lj

Thank you red for your testamony to your son.
I am also a mother to a gay son, 36 years old college educated, has a career. Who has suffered many years of abuse from those that deem themselves better and holier and more worthy of being a part of this human race than he. He is a very worthy, loving, intelligent and hard working member of this society. His heart is so big and his talents loved by many. To know him as anything but love, as well as loved would be a mistake by those who are missing out on the gentleman he truly is.
He has the mind and body of a man and a soul and heart of the kindest human being you would want to meet. Through all the hatred and bigotry, he still smiles and loves people. Lives his life and asks nothing but respect and honor for his world as he does ours.

Kat

ahh, that's refreshing...I don't like it when geniuses post after simpletons like me.:)

Eljay,

You're doing it again!!!

After carefully reading your reply to Red, and mine by 'ricochet', I am left perplexed.

In both cases, IMO, you have either misunderstood, or you have avoided the essence of the two messages: Red's and mine, altogether. I tend to think that you have avoided the essence.

In doing so, you've repeated the same enormity of gross association as performed in your first message.

To suggest that Christians are 'VICTIMS' in the US, is totally pathetic, in the truest sense of the word: ... 'trying to draw sympathy desparately with no just cause'. Of course you have the right to your opinion, I simply suggest you should examine its basis. Anyone 'pushing' their political, religious, sexual, or personal agenda down any prospective employer's throat, is going to be passed up as 'unstable' personality. Nothing to do with being Christian.

The overwhelming majority of everyone living and working in the US is Christian. Some of them, the more fanatical and fundamentalists of them, are the very tyrants, victimizing the homosexual minority.

Using this fallacy of 'Christians victims', and associate it to red's claim of REAL persecution, inequalities and disparities which make up the everyday reality of homosexuals in the US, is further mischaracterization of the sexual act vs murder vintage!!!

Of course 'Eljay', you can keep claiming your right to support you opinions, beliefs and convictions with such mischaracterizing arguments.
But I suggest you would benefit from examining the basis of your arguments, and whether or not they are effective to whomever you're addressing them, in conveying your points with a minimum of fairness, and Christian respect for human integrity.

For homosexuals and LUCID Christian or non-christian heterosexuals of the US, to give-up the fight for equal civic and human rights for homosexuals, and simply turn to God, is the epitomy of complaisance and abdication when facing evil.

Again, with all due respect to you Eljay.

voileazur,

You might try to fight windmills here.
Let me explain:
I read a poem once (it was in German and I don't know it by heart)
It was about an old man hit by a car, he wasn't badly injured so he picked himself up, looked at the traffic sign and wondered.
Then he went home, sat down in his recliner and looked up the rules of the road. Having that done, he decided the accident had never happened, it was a dream, because according to the rules of the road the car could not have been there.
He came to the conclusion, it can not be because it is not supposed to be.

Lets go back to the Christians
According to the bible
homosexuality is a sin
and God is perfect
So how could a perfect God create a human being with an "inbuilt sin" in his image. It would make Him less perfect, therefore it can not be because it is not supposed to be.

We could however argue that God created homosexuals as a test for Christians, to see whether they really love their neighbours as they love themselves. Most of the more militant Christians fail this test utterly, therefore it can not be because it is not supposed to be.

So they have to insist that homosexuality is a choice.

I hope I made myself clear enough.

quite clear, invisible, and well put indeed!

'invisible',

Very clear indeed partner!!!

... and still hard to leave such things unanswered, ... for everyone else!

:)

Yes Invisible, your point was well made. I do understand that point so let me here and now say to both

Lonley Walker & Eljay, I do understand what you are both saying. For you, in your eyes the 'act' of homosexuality is wrong, because in the Bible it has been "explained to you" that these acts are a sin.

OK, neither of you has ever been cruel, or particualarly biased toward me on a personal level, and I think there is a mutual respect all around. I also think that neither would act any differently in person with me or with any person who just happens to be gay.

I can even accept that, because for you, it is a belief about YOU, and not to be used for the purpose of judgeing people or taking any action that would or could be seen as less than courteous and kind.

Now that I've eplained that I understand both of your positions, and that your beliefs, really don't bother, PLEASE let me try this ONE MORE TIME.

#1 - HOW DO EITHER OF YOU KNOW - that what you have been taught to be considered a sin, is actually the sin you are asigning it too? (think about this question and answer to yoursel before you read on.) - remeber that is yet a 2nd question coming.

there are SIX - (6) places in the Bible that have been interpreted as including homoeseuality as one of many sins.

I have posted some scholarly responces as to why those places ARE NOT discussing homosexual loving acts, but rather acts of perversion. I'm sure we can agree that just because a man kidnaps a male child and abuses that child and forces that child to have sex. THE MAN, does not have to be a homosexual and the actions are one of a violent crime by a sick person. Now, however wrong it is, a reporter, even today, not being politically correct, might just report that THE MAN homosexually raped the child. YES, I would understand that a Bible verse that explained a violent crime of rape with a word, which at the time was, similiar to our word 'homosexual' would thus be considered a sin.

I have offered a view explaining, by these scholars, why in each of the six Biblical references none was refering to 'homosexual' behavior as we understand it in today's society. TRUTH IS, that translating the words in those verses to equate with homosexuality, were done so erroneously. The original words themselves are not even the same words in those 6 different places - how could ALL of them be difined exactly the same, as homosexual?

#2 If your are asked to support the laws of the country you live in; if in that support you are asked to vote on legislature that would continue to support your the fundamental laws that provide freedom and equality to ALL citizens - would you vote based on YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF of what a sin is? Or would you vote to honor all people with the same freedom of choice and eqality under the law that you would want for yourself?

Two simple question - aren't they - simple?

I'm asking for your responce to these two questions. Through out all these posts whenever the discussion turns to gays, I pose these two questions - ONLY these two. I have posed them in every way I can conceive to get my points accross.

Both of you have given me cause to believe that you are poeple who deserve my respect, yet I can never give that fully, I can never trust either of you fully, until, unless I know and understand your position on THOSE TWO QUESTIONS. Please!

beautifully put red. the old testament greek and hebrew doesnt translate to what modern christians especially ones who ignore the old testament think it does.

take for example the instruction in the bible of do not suffer a witch to live. think now of all the people in this country and europe that have been hanged and burned for being witches.
do u know that the greek word that the king james interpreters pulled out for actaully means poisoner not witch. of course we dont want a poisoner to live. the king james translation was brought about during a very political time for the church and the interpreters had to have their translations approved by the king. it is an extremely faulty translation and other more modern translations like niv are translated from the king james not the hebrew. the only way to achieve accuracy in reading scripture is to read it in hebrew.

dear redy:
with all the respect u deserve, and i'm not judging u, i'm just saying what i think.
As far as I know, and i may be the most ignorant human being. Homosexuality, is a sin because is contra natura. When god created man and woman, He designed their physiology for procreation. I'm sorry if i'm being to explicit, but a vagina is meant to receive a penis, that is natural, anything else is against nature. That is why i think it's a sin.
for the second question:
if the laws which are being enacted are against basic civil rights to homosexuals ofcourse i would not vote for them.
Redy be sure i wouldn't feel unconfortable being with u in person because i already have gay friends, and they are excellent people, I guess that by now u know how I am.

All what i've wrote here is my personal opinion.