so does this discussion about suicide mean to support the idea that people have 'no choice',,,since nothing could change their minds,, apparently

or htat they do have 'choice' and that in spite of what could change their mind, they come to the same conclusion?


if nothing could alter their end,, to me, that sounds like it wasn't a matter of 'choice' at all

,,,,just food for thought,,,,

This wasn't a "discussion about suicide"; it was, according to the op, a discussion about society's responsibility in each individual's suicide.

Of course the two girls referenced in the op had a choice and of course something could have changed their minds...


they, themselves...collectively OR individually.




They each chose NOT to change their minds.

Not accepting the reality of choice is problematic, too.

I couldn't agree more,, choice could not happen without options,,, options are created collectively, and not individually,,,

personal choice doesn't exist in a vacuum without collective action,,,,

Options are also created individually.

we create our own options independent of anyone else?

can you give an example?

The choice to commit suicide is created independently.

really? that's interesting,,,,so there is nothing that PRECEDES that choice that involves anything or anyone else?


so why don't perfectly happy people commit suicide? why do they not seem to 'choose' that option?

do you believe human interactions don't affect human emotions which in turn affect human 'choices'


for instance, when I am friendly to someone, I have no doubt that affects them in a way which may influence their 'choice' to be nice to someone else

and if I am mean and unfair to someone, I have no doubt that affects them in a way which may INFLUENCE their 'choice' to be mean to

or 'take it out on' someone else,,,,



so if we are unwilling to speak in terms of 'choice',, can we agree on the reality of 'influence'?

I haven't noticed anyone "unwilling to speak in terms of 'choice'"; I've only noticed others being unwilling to accept your version of who is ultimately responsible for the choices others make borne of their own free will.

Your versions dictates that if a person washed up upon the shore of a desolate island, void of human contact, he/she would sit there being an unmoving/unthinking blob, as he/she would not know what do to nor be able to independently exercise/exert any options,

being devoid of external human and societal influences deciding for him/her what he/she should do.

People who dislike being responsible for their own personal choices are likely to try to blame society for those choices. That is what immature children do, anyway.

not at all, my point is precisely because we DONT live on an island unto ourselves,, our choices are INFLUENCED by others, by the options our ENVIRONMENT presents,, an environment that is often created by OTHERS before we arrive,,,etc


the point I was making was in the first post

personal-responsibility-as-choice allows some people to avoid responsibility.



I may have a 'choice' between stealing some food or dying,, in a natural disaster, lets say

but my 'personal responsibility' to not steal, is overshadowed by the NEED to live and an absent option to PURCHASE viable food

an absence created both by natures actions and the available RESOURCES That others have provided for me to purchase

to end a discussion with a blanket excuse of 'personal responsibility' is to deny that we don't live in a vacuum or on an island

and to let others escape any 'responsibility' they hold


'blame' does the same thing, honestly


I do wish we would think and discuss events more in terms of responsibility than 'blame' and 'choice



IF I have responsibility than I can have power ,, power to avoid or facilitate


I have the power to avoid a situation(one of many) where I may be raped by not dressing provocatively , dancing suggestively, surrounding myself with strangers and accepting drinks from other people

,,If I behave with that RESPONSIBILITY , I can greatly reduce my risks

of being RAPED


or I can do all these things without regard to a consequence knowing that its not about anything but that persons 'choice',, so,, allegedly,, nothing I am doing or can do will INFLUENCE The likelihood of them feeling comfortable or safe in said choice


I would be RESPONSIBLE for acting irresponsibly,, that wouldn't justify or excuse the rape,, but it would possibly save me in the future to learn how to be more 'responsible' or 'cautious' to avoid such a scenario,,



he would be RESPONSIBLE for his choice to rape me,, and it would be illegal, and his consequence would be jail

my consequence for being careless or irresponsible or whatever I would call it to aknowledge my own POWER in the situation, would be the increased risk of such a terrible consequence

[Interesting segue from a completely different response given by you in another thread where you agreed that women shouldn't HAVE to watch what we say, lest we upset a man who then beats the crap out of us for saying it.]


Our current legal system allows for "degrees" within illegal activities, which includes the circumstances by which a theft occurs as well as the circumstances by which a rape occurs. Someone who steals food because they are starving will be prosecuted and sentenced differently than someone who steals electronic equipment from BestBuy to resell on the black market.

Decades ago, our legal system removed the "she was dressed too provocatively, so she made me rape her" as a viable defense or even as a mitigating circumstance worthy of consideration.


I'm still not seeing how your latest entry supports or refutes the FACT that, here in the U.S., anyway, we are afforded many choices each and every day, including the choices to operate within - or without - the framework of contemporary societal norms.

To boot, 'your' choice to "be nice and pleasant" to 'me' may or may not influence 'my' choice to pay it forward. Furthermore, YOUR definition of "being nice and pleasant" may or may not be seen as "nice and pleasant" by the person on the receiving end. If my husband has just left me, taken my dog, and driven off in my truck, I am allowed to be upset by your "nice and pleasant" salutation of "Have a nice day"; likewise, you are allowed to deliver a "nice and pleasant" salutation of "Have a nice day", filled with dripping sarcasm and condescension if that is your intent.

The simple point being, as individuals we are allowed to take from every experience, encounter, and influence that which we wish to...negatively OR positively. Society does not owe ANYone a world filled with rubber-bumpers and no sharp edges so none of us gets hurt while traversing through life. Presuming society does/should owe us safe and pleasant passage is more dangerous and debilitating than any real danger we as humans can dream up TO hurt and maim others.

several points here

1st is that I don't present or believe that anyone MAKES us do anything,, what I stated was that people INFLUENCE our choices and options are INFLUENCED by external forces and not just singularly produced by us


2nd is that my belief is precisely WHY I don't believe that someone can be 'baited' into hitting someone, but I do believe that just as the hitter makes a CHOICE to hit that should be dealt with legally because its ILLEGAL,, the 'baiter' should feel a responsibility for THEIR PART in it,, without it meaning that they are to 'blame' or at 'fault',, but just meaning they had some power in the situation to INFLUENCE the outcome,, whatever CHOICE someone else made at the end of the situation


3rd, I am definitely not debating what people are 'allowed' to do, in America the list is exhaustive, I am debating the PERCEIVABLE and WELL STUDIED tendency (not an absolute , because it wont happen EVERY TIME with EVERYBODY) for peoples moods to be INFLUENCED By the actions and words of others and for that to , in turn, influence what CHOICES they make in dealing with others after that point


a belief that someone MADE another hit them or rape them is absurd, but a belief that the assaulted or raped made their own poor choices is not, or the acknowledgement of how a more responsible choice may have decreased the odds of the outcome


its best not to act like a tramp, in other words, cause you might get raped, and that RAPIST Is a CRIMINAL and isn't JUSTIFIED in any way

its best not to get in peoples faces and scream at them, in other words, cause you might get slapped, but that person is guilty of ASSAULT, is a criminal and isn't JUSTIFIED



however, its a poor PERSONAL choice, a lack of personal responsibility to act in ways that increase that risk upon you,,,,



in either case, I can say,, 'yes, they SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT' AND 'YES the response to what they did was a CRIME'

they aren't mutually exclusive

I do agree that we take experiences , encounters, and influences, and they SHAPE the options we perceive we have when making CHOICES

I do agree society doesn't 'owe' rubber bumpers so no one gets hurts,, but I believe HUMANS can behave with an exceptional character so as not to intentionally harm others and even to very intentionally try to uplift them instead



precisely why I wish to discuss things in term of responsibility (of which there is usually plenty to go around) as opposed to the singular and closed 'blame' and 'personal choice'

I think it has far stretching consequences. I think a healthy society creates healthy
people. But even that has implications too. First of all i would bring up the point of
women that have a wrong self image of themselves. Society reflects that on them on what they
should look like. For example look at magazines with skinny women. Or rap music that promotes
young girls that must look sexy. Even at an age that they do not realise it.They often get a wrong
self image of themselves and devellop things like boulemia. Society is responsible for that
too. Or the fact that Mc Donalds menu's are much more cheaper then a healthy nutricious meal.
Which.. ultimately creates early deaths too.
I think that if the school has a good observation of what is going on. Then it could have prevented
this from happening. But this has implications too. Because It does not always show if someone is serious in their intentions. We all know that many kids at that
age often think of suicide. It is almost "normal" at that age. Every teenager thinks of suicide.
So where do you draw the line as a school. It depends on the school structure too. Maybe there is simply
too little people that can really talk to a child. And win their confidence to learn what is going
on in their minds. I think that a parent whether responsible or not. Is already severely "punished" for
the death of a child. just like the school there are things to be concidered too. For example a child can be totally
different at home. Then when being at school. There is so much pressure of fitting in a group.
it is so hard to decide for who to blame. Only groce negligence will be visible in this case. And sometimes
that is hard to prove too. So that is why i think that a healthy society creates healthy people.

you are my kind of human,, a nice departure from the 'norm'

ty

Interesting. MY "kind of people" DO fit "the norm"; within my immediate 'sphere of influence', I do not have any ex-convicts, drug users, alcoholics, or any other types who stray too far from "the norm", simply to get by in life.

I am a strong enough person to NOT be unduly swayed by media portrayals of how I, as a woman, "should be"; I've only dated/mated with men who are strong enough to know who they are/what they want, independently and without undue media pressure. I - and those with whom I associate - have a strong enough sense of self TO eat healthy foods and are able to prepare them, for themselves, even!!! I - and those with whom I associate - sent our children to school to receive an education; we stayed in touch with our children to the point that we would not have required notification from school officials that our girls were having thoughts of suicide; we'd have already been aware that something was amiss. No child of mine had any classmate commit suicide...and that covers 36 separate years/classes of public schooling.



Apparently, I and MY "kind of people" are the odd ones...and have been/are doing it all *wrong*.


Hmmmm...now, there's "some food for thought".

Society does not create the choice of a person committing suicide.
That choice is created by the one who commits suicide.

This.

It's already illegal to commit suicide in all states; even those which allow medical-assisted suicide have strict guidelines and procedures which must be followed.

To insist that society has an obligation to stop illegal suicide means law enforcement must step in to prevent a suicidal person FROM committing the act. We already have that...it's called "suicide by cop".

"It's already illegal to commit suicide in all states; even those which allow medical-assisted suicide have strict guidelines and procedures which must be followed"

That is "treating" the effect and not the prevention of it. If someone is caught doing that in public
then it is often a "scream for help" Because they will ultimately find a way to do it anyhow. And do it somewhere
where it is hidden for the public.

I am not saying that because of your government everyone will walk to a cliff and jump from it like lemmings.

What i am trying to say is that society sometimes pushes us in the wrong position. In your case you managed
to bring up your kids in a healthy and productive way. Maybe you had the time and resources to do this.
Not everyone is so fortunate always. Some have to work many jobs to support a family. So they might not have
enough time to notice what is going on in a family. They might not be home a lot. Or have time to cook healthy.

"I am a strong enough person to NOT be unduly swayed by media portrayals of how I, as a woman, "should be"; I've only dated/mated with men who are strong enough to know who they are/what they want, independently and without undue media pressure. I - and those with whom I associate - have a strong enough sense of self TO eat healthy foods and are able to prepare them, for themselves, even"

Young people are very susceptible for things in their environment. For example puberty is a strong factor for a child
to find his place in society. And that is looking for an identity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2504195/Bullied-children-resorting-plastic-surgery.html

"Apparently, I and MY "kind of people" are the odd ones...and have been/are doing it all *wrong*."

Hmm i find that a strange way of telling that you did the right thing. Not sure what you want to achieve by saying this.

If someone commits suicide. Then i concider it as a faillure of a society as a whole. A government should
aid and protect people that are in need of mental help. And not at the last phase of it. But as a prevention.