Serachin- you wote that many people in this country were mistaken abou the war in Iraq and how damaging it is because they do not realize:

>>"just how big Iraq is and how little of it is actually "at war"... you would be surprised how many people think this is some small middle east country completely engulfed in chaos and war."

Do you honestly believe that there is a single man, woman, or child in Iraq that is not deeply and horrifically effected every second of the day and night by the fact that their country is at war?

I am disappointed in your words because I believe that they must be either totally thoughtless or completely dishonest.

The 9/11 attack in this country lasted a single day, resulted in less than 3,000 people being killed, and resulted in very small geographic areas being damaged and disrupted.

9/11 had a *much* smaller "percentage" driect impact on this country, its citizens, and its resources than the war in Iraq has had on the that country and its people. In fact, they are hardly comparable at all except in that when people are killed it is always an atrocity. And yet people in this country continue, years later, to be profoundly effected by 9/11... how then can the effects of the Iraq war on its citizenry EVER be "overestimated"?

Invisable..I'm sorry but again ..I'm not sure what you mean by "accident", did this person just walk into my house by "accident" thinking it was his house? That would be a stretch...However if this "addicted" kid was desparate enough to break into my home and possibly harm my family...then yes I would shoot him...the health and well being of my family comes before any and all things. I would much rather shed a tear for a lost soul (addicted kid as you call him) then mourn the lost of my family.

No, you have to realize the source, come to understand how it came to that. This poor addict is only looking for money, not to harm you, or anybody else, he/she would just panic seeing a weapon.
I'd rather lose my money than to show a weapon and risk to kill someone, however low a life it might be in your eyes.

Onosis, your statement:
"Do you honestly believe that there is a single man, woman, or child in Iraq that is not deeply and horrifically effected every second of the day and night by the fact that their country is at war?"
I do believe that every man, woman and child is affected (as apposed to effected)by the war..but many, many not horrifically but positively affected too.. You probably have never actually spoken to an "expatriot" from Iraq face to face and told what life was like in Iraq before the war.Nor would I expect that you would believe them anyway.

As for you bringing up 911, I can only assume you have been told so many times by the media that this war is somehow related to the attack of 911 and some sort of retaliation of said attack, that you believe this to be the case...so nothing I say here will make any sense to you.

I think anoasis knows better than that, she is just responding to what YOU wrote in the first place.

Well Invisable....IF I had God-Like powers and had ESP and KNEW this "poor" addict was not going to harm my family...then yes..of course I would not shoot him

well, take it as a fact that an addict is only looking for valuables, not for lives. In the usual case for a break in they are not armed. They would only be so knowing that there are arms in the house.
but then, I'm only a foreigner, what do I know.

Well Invisable..I don't want to "beat a dead horse" as it were, but I am a realist and all these scenario's are all good and fine...however if I am sleeping and someone breaks into my home that could potentially risk my families lives, I doubt I will casually ask them "are you just some poor addict looking for money? or are you here to steal or rape my kids?" I am not as "cold hearted" as you seem to want to believe....If I was alone, in a public area, confronted with a thief (or desperate "poor addict")and I was armed...I would much rather give up the money then to resort to violence....I hope this clarifies my view point

OK 'search',

Let's walk throuh this one slowly.

First of all there is something you need to stop doing. From a friend to another friend, you need to STOP READING DIAGONALLY!!! Meaning: slow down your reading speed. Take time to understand the party whom is writing to you. :)

I know you're keen and fun and all that, and we all want to address some of the point you raise, but the 'diagonal reading' causes a lot of confusion and frustrations.

You've done this diagonal reading with me on several occasions, and it just makes debating very difficult, and unproductive: the exchange of views part.

In this particular case, 'anoasis's points have been totally sabotaged, perverted, and dicarded!!!

I could be wrong, and if I am, I promise I will ship one of my finest 'bottle' to you, as a sign of apology, but 'anoasis' points IMO, speak to your obsessive plugs which seem aimed at reducing, and even somewhat painting a positive impact of the US intervention in Irak.

Whatever the different angles you've adopted to convey this obsessive view of yours, none of the concerned parties: your Armed Forces (would you say they are contaminated by the evil left media?), Congress (yes even most of the republican side), the US population, all would agree that it is not a matter of seeking a win for this war, but a lesser defeat. Some sort of an honorable exit in defeat.

Miracles happen! And maybe there is a victory hidden behind some unforeseeable event. But WE the PEOPLE don't control the miracle factory!!! And the facts right now, not the media propaganda, but what officials in place, on the ground, in Irak have to say, suggest that FIGURING, AND OPERATING A LESSER DEFEAT in EXITING, WOULD BE A VICTORY FOR THE US AT THIS POINT!!!

'anoasis',
... responding to your 'walt disney' depiction of the situation in Irak; trying to REDUCE everything that could sound like chaos and defeat and suffering as some sort of choice path towards liberation,
... was simply, and very politely suggesting that you were smoking 'bad dope'! Now she didn't say that, probably didn't event think that, and we here all know better than to think that of you! But the point of not accepting your 'reducing' approach remains, and you seem to be the only one to not hear or receive this form 'anoasis' articulate and respectful reply to you.

Futhermore, the parallel 'anoasis' made with 9/11, had nothing to do with the motive to fight the war in Irak, and everything to do with the degree of suffering, and its toll on Iraquis and US people for their respective tragedy.

The unsaid from 'anoasis' seemed to ask you: 'would you be as 'creative' in reducing the horrors of 9/11 to US people, as you seem to be in reducing the suffering and losses of Iraquis people caused by this senseless 'error' of history!!!

And please do not come back with the fact that you talk to Iraqui people and know better!!! It is not becoming to make such ingnorant claims! People might think that you're some sort of pontificator, and I wouldn't like anyone to think that of a friend of mine. You're not a pontificator, nor are you ignorant, or insensitive of other well read and sensitive people interacting with us on this forum.

So promise me me you'll behave, and make an effort to slow down your reading.

... because I want to keep debating with you my friend, as I'm sure many others do!!!

Viol my good friend...you seem to always accuse someone (especially when it doesn't fit into your mindset) of generalities...which weakens the debate, yet your statement :

"Whatever the different angles you've adopted to convey this obsessive view of yours, none of the concerned parties: your Armed Forces (would you say they are contaminated by the evil left media?), Congress (yes even most of the republican side), the US population, all would agree that it is not a matter of seeking a win for this war, but a lesser defeat. Some sort of an honorable exit in defeat."

Your use of "none of the concerned parties" and "all would agree that it is not a matter of seeking a win for this war, but a lesser defeat. Some sort of an honorable exit in defeat"


I think you are guilty of everything you espouse here my friend.
There are many citizens and soldiers that would disagree with you.

There's no hope of an "honorable" anything, with the snakes who
run the military.

Serchin4MyRedWine,

I'm sure you are not acting in bad faith, so I'll assume you've had too much wine, for you have done it again!!!
This diagonal reading bad habit of yours, which I've warned you about!!! It makes you look bad 'search', and I hate that!!! People will lose all faith in you, and they won't reply to you anymore!

It even brings to make accusations :
"... I think you are guilty of everything you espouse here my friend..."

Which you have to take back minutes after reading a second time!!!

In this case you made these false accusation because you forgot reading the specifying and qualifying attributes to "concerned parties" I was referring to. And of course I maintain my point, that those specific, not general, parties positions would not agree in any way shape or form with your obesessive opinions, and that of 'some' of your so called 'many' citizens and soldiers. Let me know if you want me to document official positions of all three specific parties!!!

You all have a right to your opinions, but keep playing fairly with the position and opinions of others. :)

"I will go out on a limb and say there will always be war and conflict on our planet" ....

and of course if that is in the mind then it will be so....I doubt that we are born into
a hell bent war mentality...but are conditioned for such thru politics and religion...that
is where we need to look to end the madness...we are so removed from nature and
what is good about life that we cannot exclude violence from our thoughts about the
future...so of course we already have the recipe for a repeat...

is there a "good" war?....the idea is ridiculous...

Davinci ..I actually agree with you ..shocking isn't it..I'm sure some day...it may take several hundred more years..but hopefully mankind will know that "war" is not the answer. The only thing to add to your statement is I'm not sure it is all about politics and religion...man has waged war since cave men battled each other for territory and food. Tribes still slaughter each other in Africa over food and territory (especially when in the strangle hold of drought and famine).

As I said in my post..."No One likes war" ...but until we can evolve more as a human race and not use our "animal" instincts...I'm afraid we are in for a long wait my friend

Searchin:

Voil wrote: "Anoais is responding to your 'walt disney' depiction of the situation in Irak; trying to REDUCE everything that could sound like chaos and defeat and suffering as some sort of choice path towards liberation, ... was simply, and very politely suggesting that you were smoking 'bad dope'! Now she didn't say that, probably didn't event think that, and we here all know better than to think that of you! But the point of not accepting your 'reducing' approach remains, and you seem to be the only one to not hear or receive this form 'anoasis' articulate and respectful reply to you.

Futhermore, the parallel 'anoasis' made with 9/11, had nothing to do with the motive to fight the war in Irak, and everything to do with the degree of suffering, and its toll on Iraquis and US people for their respective tragedy.

The unsaid from 'anoasis' seemed to ask you: 'would you be as 'creative' in reducing the horrors of 9/11 to US people, as you seem to be in reducing the suffering and losses of Iraquis people caused by this senseless 'error' of history!!! "

Yes Voil, EXACTLY.

My whole point and comparison to 9/11 was only to point out how terrible the war in Iraq actually is... I definitely do not believe the war was a response to 9/11 or connected directly to it except in the publicity machine that is/was the white house.

Searchin: Perhaps you could not hear my words because you were distracted by the fact that I was naked? I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt because I do agree with one point of yours....

There is no such thing as a good war and "war is not the answer".

However, I do still find it disingeneous of you to say you don't believe war to be an answer and then try to minimize the negative repercussions of a specific war.

BTW- thanks for correcting my use of effect vs. affect... I always have that problem, especially when typing too quickly. I did think it was a bit beside the point, but I do hate to misuse words.

onoanis I will never tell about my peeking while you were undressed
as for your last comment:

"However, I do still find it disingeneous of you to say you don't believe war to be an answer and then try to minimize the negative repercussions of a specific war."

"O" I don't think it is disengenious at all or paradoxical. Because I do not believe war to be the "answer" I am also a realist and know wars will still wage for whatever the reason may be, whether or not I believe them to be an answer or not. So I was "analyizing" the war as it is...not supporting it or should I say "promoting" war of any kind...just giving a different perspective that you don't see in media.

You may get the impression that "I dont want to see the negative affects" (not quoting you O, just an example statement)
But I do see the negatives...everyday on our media...so I thought some positives would make for a more balanced view.

I see that you were so flustered that you could not spell my name... "oasis".



And yes, I do aknowledge that some people are benefitting from the war... primarily government contractors reaping large rewards from re-building contracts. But even they must balence the dangers versus the monetary rewards. The difference is that the general population has no such choice- they did not "volunteer" to be in a war torn nation and they reap no such rewards for doing so...

I pray for peace at least daily. Do I think world peace will be a reality in my lifetime? No, I do not truly believe it will occur, nevertheless I will do everything I can think of to make it happen.

Including debate you, talk to my representatives in government, campaign and vote for candidates I believe in, participate in protests and other campaigns... but most importantly to me, I will talk to my nephews and my godchildren, I will talk to every parent and every child I possibly can and I will say to them:

War never truly "solves" anything. War is not glorious or noble. War is ugly.

The "enemy" that is killed in war is a person with loved ones who will miss them horribly... the "enemy" is another human being like you with a mother and a father, who may have siblings or children of their own... the "enemy" is not an abstract, the "enemy" is not an absolute...

So Please children, all your lives do whatever you can to find alternatives to war....

Peace be unto you.

Yes "O" must be everytime I go to spell your name...I have visions from when I saw you sitting there reading Just one after thought if I may..I whole hearted agree with you when you state:

War never truly "solves" anything. War is not glorious or noble. War is ugly.

Butt....I mean but

... the "enemy" is another human being like you with a mother and a father, who may have siblings or children of their own... the "enemy" is not an abstract, the "enemy" is not an absolute...

The "enemy" that can strap on explosives and kill innocent men woman and children by the thousands (not military targets) are "not human beings like you" at least I hope not (((((O))))))))

Searchin, you wrote: "The "enemy" that can strap on explosives and kill innocent men woman and children by the thousands (not military targets) are "not human beings like you" at least I hope not (((((O))))))))"

You are correct Searchin, I generalized without being specific enough. It was sloppy of me. But many who are killed in war *are* human beings like me. Others could be, I suppose, considered to be killed in "self-defense" e.g. actual terrorists.

I was thinking of a specific conversation that I had recently with the 9 year old son of one of my co-workers.

This child stated that he couldn't wait til he was big enough to go and kill "terrorists" in Iraq. His belief was that all Iraqis are "terrorists." This is what he and his friends believe. I asked him if he thought the "terrorists" mothers would cry when they were killed. He stated that the "terrorists mothers are terrorists too so it doesn't matter."

I was chilled. His mother explained, "boys will be boys, all little boys like to play army and shoot each other with toy guns." Thankfully, my sister-in-law and I are of like mind in this matter and my nephews do not play at killing. So I say again, teach our children of the horrors of war.

Now I really will be "peaceful" on this thread... and stop commenting! Please feel free to have the last word on your thread... Peace.

anoasis I hope your not implying I always like to have last word
But if you insist...I'll just say this:
I hope you didn't take offense with my "O" use..it definitly was not my intention
And Thank you for your input,and insight. I enjoyed our "conversation" and look forward to many more with you Peace to you anoasis