A different perspective on the “Iraq War”

………Ok, I know this will be very hard for some to do…but lets all try to take off the Bush haters hats, liberal, independent, conservative hats. Strip off the anti-war, pro-war shirts. Remove the, Why did we go, who’s to blame pants. And hardest of all…remove the propaganda filled underwear LOL. First. .I’d like to add a little disclaimer ( for my good friend Voil and others). .I might use some generalities, e.g. “ No One likes war” ..where as I am sure there are a few who want and love war..but the overwhelming populations do not. So I guess I forgot to say take off those dissection socks and shoes too. So hopefully we are all now sitting naked in front of our computers (OMG what a thought )

Before I get to the “Iraq war” (you will understand quotation marks later)….lets look at war and conflict in general. What are the reasons and or causes of conflict? There are many of course, religion, greed, oppression, famine and other “sub-groups” of the mentioned......in other words the reasons pretty much run the scope of human traits and behavior.( I know some are thinking add Bush to list.....please take that hat off ..no one said to get dressed yet )

I will go out on a limb and say there will always be war and conflict on our planet. For those die hard “peace-niks” who believe that someday in the near future we will all live in peace, holding hands and hugging each other, I support my statement with the following. 1. There has always been war and conflict in human history. 2. As long as we are “human” and have different tastes, enjoy different view points, have unique aspirations, and have different cultures…in other words..we are all not programmed robots with exactly the same thoughts and desires…there will be conflict. 3. In the animal kingdom there is war and conflict everyday e.g. a pride of lions protects and defends it’s territory against invaders, army ants(note their name) will attack intruders and expand their territory , even take over other ant colonies and use them as slaves , in every animal species there is conflict over territory, mating, food etc. So to say we will all live in peace and harmony not only goes against human nature...but nature itself.

Taking this human element further, is the justification of war. Some will say this war or that war, is or is not justified. This is only relevant to the specific human or cultural background you are from, others will say no war is justified....just another human opinion. Human diversity....its good and bad. Its good that we are all different...yet bad because it causes conflicts. That is nature, and until we can “control” everyone and everything, which by its very term, suggests conflict, there will be war.

Ok..what am I getting at then? Sorry if this has been so obtuse, but my point or theme is, we could debate and have meaningful discourse about why we went, who is to blame and should we have or should we not have gone all day long. But there are two things I’m sure we can ALL agree on. 1. There IS a war, and 2. War is ugly and people die. So my “different perspective” is on the war itself and how we perceive it by the way our main stream media depicts it to be. The general way or should I say most often way our media portrays what is happening in Iraq is this...The whole country is in chaos, suicide bombs and car bombs are blowing up all over Iraq, there is a huge civil war among different factions of Sunni, Shia and Kurds, our troops are failing miserably, and last but certainly not least…we are in this alone.

Iraq is approximately 9000 sq miles BIGGER then the state of California (this does not include the neutral zone it shares with Saudi Arabia) Iraq being 168,743 sq miles vs. Clifornia's 160,000 sq miles. Although there are sporadic and isolated violence in the north (Kurdistan area) and southern Iraq(Basra area) These typically are against pipelines and infrastructure and are becoming less frequent..almost non existent in last 6 months.
Most of the frequent and deadly attacks (car bombs, suicide bombers and IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) are in two areas of central Iraq commonly known as “THE SUNNI TRIANGLE” which encompasses Bagdad up to Ramadi and down to Tikrit and also includes Samarra, Fallujah and Sadr City.
The second area is “THE DEATH TRIANGLE” and by its name tells the story. This region begins @ 70 miles south of Bagdad and extends south to Latifiyah and Iskandariyah and includes Yusufiyah and Mahmudiyah as well. The COMBINED area of these two Triangles is less then 10.000 sq miles or to put it in another “perspective” 1/3 the size of the Greater Los Angeles Area ( LA, Long Beach and Riverside)which is 34,000 sq.miles. So if there were really bad riots and killings and civil unrest in LA…would the media depict“all of California is in chaos??” So to depict All of Iraq is at war, is not an accurate statement, in contrast I would suggest that Most of Iraq has little or no violence and is in a stage of rebuilding. Even in these more violent areas our troops are making great progress….see my post( Could This Be so???).


War deaths, is another Example..."only" @4000 of our soldiers have been killed in over 5 years ( I think every man and woman who dies in war is tragic ...as we all agree war is ugly and people die) but compared to other wars e.g. Vietnam (a country less then half the size of Iraq) 60,000 US troops killed in ten years (at that rate there would be 30,000 killed in Iraq already) Over 8,000 killed in ONE day during the D-day invasion…3500 troops killed in a “Trainig exercise” for D-Day. 20,000 U.S. Soldiers killed in liberation of France alone. In All , 292,000 Americans died in a 4 year war!! So by “war standards” this war has seen very light casualties.


One last thing that the media depicts…or should I say forgets to mention, is that there are at least 22 other countries with troops along side our brave men and women helping the Iraqi’s build their country (this list does not include UN and UNICEF workers). They include UK, Australia, South Korea, Poland, Romania, El Salvador, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Denmark, Bulgaria, Albania, Mongolia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Armenia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Moldavia, Slovakia, and Latvia . Before you put those hats back on and scream “These countries only have few troops there” ...Well Of course..they are a fraction of the size we are and whether it is one soldier or 2000 soldiers..it’s the statement that counts...they would not send any if they didn’t want to show support or help. It’s just “interesting” that the media only reports this info when it is “negative” like when Spain pulled it’s troops

In conclusion....My perspective only intends to shed a more balanced view(as apposed to the left main stream media) of the war itself..not whether it is right, or wrong. Anti-War, Pro War, Justified or Not, I think the Media does us all a disservice when trying to propagate an agenda instead of telling the complete story. Maybe “The Bagdad War” would be a more appropriate name.

I’m am not saying this is the “right” or “wrong” perspective...just a “different” one that perhaps will further our understanding of what may be real or perceived. Everyone will see it differently.....that is Human Diversity.

OK you can get dressed now....well at least the ones that could actually take off the Bush haters hats in the first place

Yeah, well; it is a horse of a different color when a soldier can die face to face with an enemy. Rather than by a hidden roadside bomb, put there by a coward to scared to go face to face combat. Or vehicle driven into town by a crazed maniac thinking he is dying to be met by virgins for being stupid.

"Bravery need not require threats to life and limb;
it requires the moral engagement of the mind."

Kat

First off, Re: "No one wants war" - It was Joseph Goebbles who
said something to the effect of: "Of COURSE the average poor farmer does'nt want war - the common man must be manipulated into it, which is a simple matter; All you have to do is convince the people they're under attack and denounce the pacifists as cowards." (Something like that, anyways - I'm too tired and lazy to hunt for the quote..)
Hey, "Serchin" Have you ever BEEN to war? 'Ever seen people killing each other and people trying to kill you, and women,
children and oldfolk mutilated and killed? - You seem to have a blase "Oh, it's just part of nature" dismissive attitude.
I GUARANTEE you, if war DID touch your life, you'd have a different attitude. And there's almost ALWAYS one reason for war - financiers, bankers and war industry wanting more money/land /control. I'm somewhat of a history buff and I've never heard of a "justified" or "legitimate" war (DON'T say Hitler - He was OUR product; NOT Germany's) and regarding your casualty figures -
yeah, we lost about 65,000 in Vietnam - but we killed THREE
MILLION CIVILIANS!! And, your proud of the U.S. troops "bravery"? For what, to be the biggest bullies? Over a MILLION,
all told, in IRAQ? Civilians being mostly women and children
and the insurgents in our third world exploits mostly destitute
peasants in sandals? Is THAT what your so proud of?
I don't care WHAT wild animals do - we DON'T have to act like them. We walk upright. War is NOT part of nature.

CBX..you missed the whole point ..as usual...but just to answer something...when we left Vietnam...over 6 million innocent men,woman and children were slaughter by the Kmer Rouge in just the firt 6 months after we left, 1000's more died from disease, starvation in refugee camps in thailand, and philippines from Laos, Combodia and vietnam. They killed any and everyone with a "higher education". so please spare me your drama..you probably didn't even read the whole post.

looks in ...sees it's handled


<<<<<<<<walks out

Bl8ant thanks for stopping in

sorry my head grew into my hat and i can not get it off now.. Best to ya... Miles

Anyone with a "higher education" is always the first to go; Same in Iraq. Intellectuals, college professors.. Apparently, "democracy" means denying the people articulate leaders.
And is'nt it funny, "Serchin", how Ho Chi Min worked closely
with the O.S.S. in W.W.2 and idolised the U.S.? He trusted us more than the soviets and even plagerised the beginning of his national declaration of independence with ours?
The French were "occupying" Vietnam, Vietnam did'nt LIKE being occupied and Ho Chi Min asked that the U.S., U.S.S.R., China and Great Britain intervene to bring the Indochinese issue to the U.N.
in a 1950 formal request. It was ignored, as was a similar request
soon after W.W.1. WE betrayed him and backed the French (again)
As early as 1954, "we" (Alan Dulles), offered nukes to the French to bail them out of Dien Bien Fu. (It had to be pointed out that this would also kill the French troops..)
Did you know that in '66-'67, during an embargo of Chinese and Russian goods, we bought 2 million worth of magnesium for warplanes from Russia and several thousand tons of steel from China for our new bases in Vietnam? or that Exxon paid the V.C.
in weapons to kill Americans with, in exchange for not hitting their oil fields which were within mortar range? - 'Sound familiar? (Bin Laden = Bush's Biggest Business Backer?)
Don't get me started on the Philipines..

so has anyone seen my shoes?????

Was it J.F.K. who said something like: "Deny the people the right to peacefully protest, and you leave no option but violent protest"..

(I'M wearing your shoes!)

and i guess now you're gonna try to tell me


THAT'S my fault as well!!????????

((((Bl8ant)))) of course it is...
as the designated DA this week.... funny it seems I was DA long before I knew about the game

Serchin writes:

"War deaths, is another Example..."only" @4000 of our soldiers have been killed in over 5 years ( I think every man and woman who dies in war is tragic ...as we all agree war is ugly and people die) but compared to other wars e.g. Vietnam (a country less then half the size of Iraq) 60,000 US troops killed in ten years (at that rate there would be 30,000 killed in Iraq already) Over 8,000 killed in ONE day during the D-day invasion…3500 troops killed in a “Trainig exercise” for D-Day. 20,000 U.S. Soldiers killed in liberation of France alone. In All , 292,000 Americans died in a 4 year war!! So by “war standards” this war has seen very light casualties. "


Since George Bush and the neocons called this a 'slam dunk' and have long ago pronounced 'mission accomplished' and 'bring em on', I think it's only fair to point out that their math hasn't computed. And a lot of people now feel empowered to speak out against their poor execution of this ill-conceived conflict that looks more like quicksand with each passing day.

And as their main justification (and yours, I'd wager) was manufactured using 9-11, let's put your 'perspective' to a decidely more difficult test-- substitute '9-11 deaths' for your use of 'war dead' and then use the same arguments you're using.

Just to see if _that_ dog hunts.

-Kerry O.

Kerry
I do not subsribe to the simpletonian views you do ( we are in iraq because of 911)
As for adding or subtracting deaths from 911...I am completely lost in what you are implying or in what direction you seem to want to take this thread....apparently you did not read the entire post..for it was not about the justification of the War, or wether it was right or wrong. Maybe you should try to dissolve that crazy glue holding your Bush Hater hat on and re read the post

'Serchin4MyRedWine'

Dear friend,

In a 'game' where you seem to invite people to take their 'hats' off, and respond with a fresh and unprejudiced perspective (if that is possible), I for one would expect you to play with 'hats' off.

You wrote:

"... In conclusion....My perspective only intends to shed a more balanced view(as apposed to the left main stream media) of the war itself..not whether it is right, or wrong. Anti-War, Pro War, Justified or Not, I think the Media does us all a disservice when trying to propagate an agenda instead of telling the complete story..."

How can you shed a 'more balanced' view when you evacuate any discussions on the very foundation or premise of the subject being discussed??? Why are we waging this war?

You seem to suggest forgetting this 'complicated' question, and simply take our prejudiced 'hats' off, and come up with enough 'right doctrinal positive' propaganda that would balance out the negative 'left' dominated media propaganda!!!

I understand that you staunchly defend this war as a 'good' war. The initiative of this war as a 'brilliant' coup from our Hero Bush. I get that you're all for that war. That you see 'very' positive 'things' happening to justify YOUR position. That the 'good', namely 'your' sde, WILL prevail. And that any media, or people account to the contrary has to be 'conspiratinalistic' propagada against the good United States of America!!!

That's your 'HAT' search!!!

And you have a right to whatever 'opinion' hat you wish!!! But if you ask people, somewhat moralistically i might add, to take their metaphorical 'hat' of prejudices off, YOU MUST HONOR YOUR OWN INVITATION/REQUEST, AND LEAVE YOUR OWN HAT AT THE DOOR!!!

As you have suggested to a couple of repliers, take some time to read your own post, and its interesting invitation: 'hats off'!!! If you're first in saying something with 'your' hat off, which means you would volunteer some 'pro-left' arguments as your own self questionning, I will gladly play the game with you and volunteer some arguments for pro-right.
Eliminating such backgrounds or filters, makes any dicussions pointless and futile. Knowing you 'search', I firmly trust that is not your intent.


The thought, which came to mind in reading your post in light of the analogy you made about people sitting 'naked' in front of their screen, is that you were very much coming
across as ...

... THE EMPEROR WITH NO CLOTHS!!!

Give us some pro-left arguments 'quick'!!! ... and we'll play right back with pro-left!!! Promise!!!

Freudian slip!!!

and we'll play right back with pro-left (PRO-RIGHT)!!! Promise!!!


... THE EMPEROR WITH NO CLOTHS (clothes, off course)!!!

Voil..my friend...you state
"How can you shed a 'more balanced' view when you evacuate any discussions on the very foundation or premise of the subject being discussed??? Why are we waging this war?"
In my post ..I specifically was looking for how the situation of the war itself as depicted by the media...NOT WHY, or who is to Blame for this War. As for your contention that I think this is a "good" war...Voil..I would prefer we never had any wars.
As for the "more balanced view" I was not trying to imply that my perspective was a more balanced (or right) view, rather that this perspective provides a more balanced view of the situation when "added" to, or compared with the media's one track mindset of chaos and defeat.

Finally my Friend...I may be too modest to take all my clothes off...as from your reply and others...I think we all have clothes that just seem too hard to remove

Instead of searching for red wine you might have spent time in searching for the proper approach to this topic.
I have no intention to take my hat off while you still wear your one on top of a helmet.

Serchin' writes:

" Kerry
I do not subsribe to the simpletonian views you do ( we are in iraq because of 911)
As for adding or subtracting deaths from 911...I am completely lost in what you are implying or in what direction you seem to want to take this thread....apparently you did not read the entire post..for it was not about the justification of the War, or wether it was right or wrong. Maybe you should try to dissolve that crazy glue holding your Bush Hater hat on and re read the post "


Serchin,

I suspected your pleas for objectivity were a ruse, I guess I have my confirmation now. This being the Internet, Anyone can Anything, compelling or otherwise. I find your resorting to taunting less than compelling as a response to using logic-in-kind to refute the premise 'it can all be reduced to numbers and comparatively speaking, it's not that bad."

Here's a premise for you:

Dead is dead.


Here's another: GWB has been more unpopular for longer than any other president in modern history. There just might be compelling reasons other than 'Bush Haters' and 'The Lieberal Media' for that if you were to use some of that vaunted objectivity you're demanding those of us who hold opposing viewpoints to use and examine what has transpired over the last 5 years.


-Kerry O.