Topic: What the American Media Won't Tell You About Israel
Conrad_73's photo
Sat 12/15/12 04:10 AM
........................but Bat-****-Crazy Duff of VeteransToday will gladly make up with Lies!

Lpdon's photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:55 AM

What the American Media Won't Tell You About Israel
The savage punishment of Gaza traces back to decades ago.
By Noam Chomsky

An old man in Gaza held a placard that read: "You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back."

The old man's message provides the proper context for the latest episode in the savage punishment of Gaza. The crimes trace back to 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled from their homes in terror or were expelled to Gaza by conquering Israeli forces, who continued to truck Palestinians over the border for years after the official cease-fire.

The punishment took new forms when Israel conquered Gaza in 1967. From recent Israeli scholarship (primarily Avi Raz's "The Bride and the Dowry: Israel, Jordan, and the Palestinians in the Aftermath of the June 1967 War"), we learn that the government's goal was to drive the refugees into the Sinai Peninsula -and, if feasible, the rest of the population too.

Expulsions from Gaza were carried out under the direct orders of Gen. Yeshayahu Gavish, commander of the Israel Defense Forces Southern Command. Expulsions from the West Bank were far more extreme, and Israel resorted to devious means to prevent the return of those expelled, in direct violation of U.N. Security Council orders.

The reasons were made clear in internal discussions immediately after the war. Golda Meir, later prime minister, informed her Labor Party colleagues that Israel should keep the Gaza Strip while "getting rid of its Arabs." Defense Minister Moshe Dayan and others agreed.

Prime Minister Levi Eshkol explained that those expelled could not be allowed to return because "we cannot increase the Arab population in Israel" -referring to the newly occupied territories, already considered part of Israel.

In accord with this conception, all of Israel's maps were changed, expunging the Green Line (the internationally recognized borders) -though publication of the maps was delayed to permit Abba Eban, an Israeli ambassador to the U.N., to attain what he called a "favorable impasse" at the General Assembly by concealing Israel's intentions.

The goals of expulsion may remain alive today, and might be a factor in contributing to Egypt's reluctance to open the border to free passage of people and goods barred by the U.S.-backed Israeli siege.

The current upsurge of U.S.-Israeli violence dates to January 2006, when Palestinians voted "the wrong way" in the first free election in the Arab world.

Israel and the U.S. reacted at once with harsh punishment of the miscreants, and preparation of a military coup to overthrow the elected government -the routine procedure. The punishment was radically intensified in 2007, when the coup attempt was beaten back and the elected Hamas government established full control over Gaza.

Ignoring immediate offers from Hamas for a truce after the 2006 election, Israel launched attacks that killed 660 Palestinians in 2006, most of whom were civilians (a third were minors). According to U.N. reports, 2,879 Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire from April 2006 through July 2012, along with several dozen Israelis killed by fire from Gaza.

A short-lived truce in 2008 was honored by Hamas until Israel broke it in November. Ignoring further truce offers, Israel launched the murderous Cast Lead operation in December.

So matters have continued, while the U.S. and Israel also continue to reject Hamas calls for a long-term truce and a political settlement for a two-state solution in accord with the international consensus that the U.S. has blocked since 1976 when the U.S. vetoed a Security Council resolution to this effect, brought by the major Arab states.
(c) 2012 Noam Chomsky is emeritus professor of linguistics and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and is co-author, with Gilbert Achcar, of Perilous Power: The Middle East & U.S. Foreign Policy: Dialogues on Terror, Democracy, War, and Justice. His most recent book is Gaza In Crisis.

http://www.issuesandalibis.org/#two


:frustrated

Lpdon's photo
Sat 12/15/12 06:04 AM

........................but Bat-****-Crazy Duff of VeteransToday will gladly make up with Lies!


What the hell is Duff?

Conrad_73's photo
Sat 12/15/12 06:18 AM


........................but Bat-****-Crazy Duff of VeteransToday will gladly make up with Lies!


What the hell is Duff?
a 9/11-Twoofer,General Conspiracy Theorist and Rabid Judeophobe,and a Big Fat Liar to boot!

Gordon Duff actually!

http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com

no photo
Sat 12/15/12 07:21 AM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 12/15/12 07:32 AM



I see the anti-semitism continues.

slaphead


Did you think that it wouldn't?

Oh, during an interview for the PBS show NOVA, archaeologist William Dever stated the following:

In 1993 an inscription was found at Tel Dan. It mentions a dynasty of David. And on the Mesha stone found in the last century in Moab there is also a probable reference to David. So there is textual evidence outside the Bible for these kings of the United Monarchy, at least David.


So, the claim that King David never existed has been demonstrated to be false.


It doesn't matter really. It is just someone's opinion that he didn't exist and as it cannot be proved either way, it can be dismissed without much ado. There is a concept among ancient historians that states 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. There is no physical evidence of Hannibal of Carthage ever existing apart from literary evidence, yet no-one questions his existence. The whole argument against King David ever existing is specious, as it lacks any supporting evidence, and it has a political agenda as opposed to any semblance of trying to ascertain historical accuracy. It is merely another transparent attempt by anti-semites to delegitimise any claim Jews have regarding the land of Israel.



You assume way too much.

There is not sufficient evidence that King David or Abraham ever existed. This does not mean a person shouldn't believe in a myth if they choose, but it does mean that humanity should probably not continue to perpetuate the myths to support dozens of religions based on different versions of what believers think is true, and who proceed to go to war with each other over the details for centuries because they disagree. It demonstrate massive stupidity.

To have gotten so far advanced scientifically and still allow the Churches to declare that ancient unproven myths are true is the height of absurdity. For the people to stand by and allow the Catholic church to hide information and hide the truth that might destroy the illusion of the age old myths is perpetrating ignorance.

The people should demand access to these ancient documents. The people should demand truth and knowledge from their religious and political leaders.

Still, in this modern age, all we get are lies.

One of the things the New World Order or Global government (if you believe that story) will have to do is destroy the myths in order to bring the world together under one ruler and one God.

If you think that is not going to happen, think again. Religions are on the way out. Religious myths will be dispelled.

But then the world leaders will replace these old myths with new lies in order to maintain their control.

If you think this is just about "Israel" you are highly mistaken. Its about all religions. (They can't all be right can they?) I am quite sure that none of them are.










Conrad_73's photo
Sat 12/15/12 07:28 AM
Edited by Conrad_73 on Sat 12/15/12 07:35 AM




I see the anti-semitism continues.

slaphead


Did you think that it wouldn't?

Oh, during an interview for the PBS show NOVA, archaeologist William Dever stated the following:

In 1993 an inscription was found at Tel Dan. It mentions a dynasty of David. And on the Mesha stone found in the last century in Moab there is also a probable reference to David. So there is textual evidence outside the Bible for these kings of the United Monarchy, at least David.


So, the claim that King David never existed has been demonstrated to be false.


It doesn't matter really. It is just someone's opinion that he didn't exist and as it cannot be proved either way, it can be dismissed without much ado. There is a concept among ancient historians that states 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. There is no physical evidence of Hannibal of Carthage ever existing apart from literary evidence, yet no-one questions his existence. The whole argument against King David ever existing is specious, as it lacks any supporting evidence, and it has a political agenda as opposed to any semblance of trying to ascertain historical accuracy. It is merely another transparent attempt by anti-semites to delegitimise any claim Jews have regarding the land of Israel.



You assume way too much.

There is not sufficient evidence that King David or Abraham ever existed. This does not mean a person shouldn't believe in a myth if they choose, but it does mean that humanity should probably not continue to perpetuate the myths to support dozens of religions based on different versions of what believers think is true, and who proceed to go to war with each other over the details for centuries because they disagree. It demonstrate massive stupidity.

To have gotten so far advanced scientifically and still allow the Churches to declare that ancient unproven myths are true is the height of absurdity. For the people to stand by and allow the Catholic church to hide information and hide the truth that might destroy the illusion of age their old myths is perpetrating ignorance. The people should demand access to these ancient documents. The people should demand truth and knowledge from their religious and political leaders.

Still, in this modern age, all we get are lies.

One of the things the New World Order or Global government will have to do is destroy the myths in order to bring the world together under one ruler and one God.

If you think that is not going to happen, think again. Religions are on the way out. Religious myths will be dispelled.

If you think this is just about "Israel" you are highly mistaken. Its about all religions. They can't all be right. I am quite sure that none of them are.










how come you never post any Evidence for your Claims?rofl
You make assertions,then prove them with other assertions!
That's like if you had a Lawn with a Ditch in it,then open another one to fill it,then open the next one to fill that,etc!

no photo
Sat 12/15/12 07:43 AM
What kind of evidence do you want, and would you believe? And what claims are you talking about? Knowing you, you would not believe anything I posted "as evidence" anyway and it would be a waste of my time.

I could spend days or years compiling information for you but it is all just information. A person does not have to believe any of it.

You don't have to believe a word I post anyway. It is all simply my point of view at this time. I have spent years pouring over information and this is what I have chosen as my point of view. I'm just putting it out there.

I have asked for more proof of King David and Abraham for years, and have not been shown anything but a few disputed fragments. There is so much riding on the existence of these characters, you would think there would be more proof. There is not. Therefore, I cannot agree that they are anything more than fictional. There is a slim chance that they may have been based on real people, but very slim.

Its okay to believe in myth, but don't call it fact and create rules of law and government around it.





no photo
Sat 12/15/12 07:59 AM


Asked whether, in terms of international law, Israel would not still be held responsible for the Palestinian population, Inbar replied:

There’s no need for us to be responsible for them. I am not prepared to be responsible for the food that comes or does not come to them. It’s their problem, not ours. What, must I take care of the whole world? We left their big cities in 1996 and that’s it…. If they want to be nice to us then we’ll help them, if not then we won’t…. Yes. There would be international pressure and we will withstand it. If the Europeans want to help them, let them help them…. We should not help our enemies.


This represents the situation fairly well.

Israel abandoned the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian governance
years ago but no real government every took hold. The PLO died with
Arafat and a more corrupt disgusting inept and useless governance
has never existed.

Now different areas are controlled by local gangs and various terrorist
groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. No one has a clear mandate
and all the areas are ruled through fear, extrajudicial beatings
and killings and threats. All the groups are broke and depend on
smuggling and terrorist support charities most of them rabidly
and baldly antisemitic.

So, Israel takes steps to safeguard their security first and has
to let the various Palestinian warring factions to fight it out
themselves regarding dominance. This is not government of course
but merely mob fiefdom rule. They want a unified state and the
rest of the world would like to see some sort of order there as
well but for now it is a pipe dream.


I really think it's basically still PLO - they are all so deluded that competing factions have made up new names for themselves......and these are the groups wanting in the UN??? please pardon me while I barf.....In NYC?? They should under no circumstances be permitted to enter this country.

Conrad_73's photo
Sat 12/15/12 08:01 AM

AndyBgood's photo
Sat 12/15/12 10:47 AM
The OP has been hiding lately!

Bestinshow's photo
Sat 12/15/12 11:49 AM

The OP has been hiding lately!
Sorry been busy with the holidays looming looking forward to my eleven paid days off that is approaching.drinker

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 12/15/12 01:22 PM
Edited by HotRodDeluxe on Sat 12/15/12 02:03 PM



I see the anti-semitism continues.

slaphead


Did you think that it wouldn't?

Oh, during an interview for the PBS show NOVA, archaeologist William Dever stated the following:

In 1993 an inscription was found at Tel Dan. It mentions a dynasty of David. And on the Mesha stone found in the last century in Moab there is also a probable reference to David. So there is textual evidence outside the Bible for these kings of the United Monarchy, at least David.


So, the claim that King David never existed has been demonstrated to be false.


It doesn't matter really. It is just someone's opinion that he didn't exist and as it cannot be proved either way, it can be dismissed without much ado. There is a concept among ancient historians that states 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. There is no physical evidence of Hannibal of Carthage ever existing apart from literary evidence, yet no-one questions his existence. The whole argument against King David ever existing is specious, as it lacks any supporting evidence, and it has a political agenda as opposed to any semblance of trying to ascertain historical accuracy. It is merely another transparent attempt by anti-semites to delegitimise any claim Jews have regarding the land of Israel.



You assume way too much.

There is not sufficient evidence that King David or Abraham ever existed.



I assume nothing. There is NO evidence that they didn't exist, so 'burden of proof' lies with those attempting to discredit their existence. This specious attempt to delegitimise Israel has been around for some time and is borne of an anti-semitic agenda. No true historian gives this banality any credence, as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The Bible contains elements of myth, that cannot be disputed, but it is also an historical document providing information on the political events and socio-economic conditions of ancient Israel. Moreover, the existence of many concomitant figures has been confirmed, therefore, the assumption that David and Abraham are mythological figures is purely a whim, and lacks any form of academic process and supporting evidence-it is only an opinion and a poorly formed one at that.

no photo
Sat 12/15/12 04:48 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 12/15/12 04:58 PM




I see the anti-semitism continues.

slaphead


Did you think that it wouldn't?

Oh, during an interview for the PBS show NOVA, archaeologist William Dever stated the following:

In 1993 an inscription was found at Tel Dan. It mentions a dynasty of David. And on the Mesha stone found in the last century in Moab there is also a probable reference to David. So there is textual evidence outside the Bible for these kings of the United Monarchy, at least David.


So, the claim that King David never existed has been demonstrated to be false.


It doesn't matter really. It is just someone's opinion that he didn't exist and as it cannot be proved either way, it can be dismissed without much ado. There is a concept among ancient historians that states 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. There is no physical evidence of Hannibal of Carthage ever existing apart from literary evidence, yet no-one questions his existence. The whole argument against King David ever existing is specious, as it lacks any supporting evidence, and it has a political agenda as opposed to any semblance of trying to ascertain historical accuracy. It is merely another transparent attempt by anti-semites to delegitimise any claim Jews have regarding the land of Israel.



You assume way too much.

There is not sufficient evidence that King David or Abraham ever existed.



I assume nothing. There is NO evidence that they didn't exist, so 'burden of proof' lies with those attempting to discredit their existence.



One cannot discredit their existence until there is sufficient proof that they did actually exist. (And you claim that you assume nothing.) That's a laugh. laugh

If you think that their non-existence needs to be proven then you must be assuming that they did exist. That is quite an assumption.

The burden of proof first lies with the claim that they exist. Prove that first. Personally, I don't know if they did or did not exist. My claim and belief is that there is not sufficient evidence that they ever did.




This specious attempt to delegitimise Israel has been around for some time and is borne of an anti-semitic agenda. No true historian gives this banality any credence, as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Really? What would any of it have to do with Israel???
There is nothing in the Bible, true or fabricated, that can "legitimize" today's Zionist Israel.




The Bible contains elements of myth, that cannot be disputed, but it is also an historical document providing information on the political events and socio-economic conditions of ancient Israel. Moreover, the existence of many concomitant figures has been confirmed, therefore, the assumption that David and Abraham are mythological figures is purely a whim, and lacks any form of academic process and supporting evidence-it is only an opinion and a poorly formed one at that.



Mixing fictional characters with real ones and writing fiction around actual real places and events is called Literature.

They did have literature back then.

It is also true that mixing some truth with fiction helps sell the lies.

While it cannot be "proven" that these characters did not exist, the fact remains that there is not enough evidence to support the House of Abraham or David.

I believe they are fictional characters. You can believe in the myth if you wish. I cannot prove they did not exist but I have no reason to believe they did. I do have some good reasons to believe they were made up.



no photo
Sat 12/15/12 04:57 PM
If I make the claim that the mythical unicorn does not exist, or that UFO's do not exist, or that Santa Clause does not exist, or that Kin Arthur never existed, I do it because of the lack of sufficient evidence for their existence.

It is NOT up to me to prove they do not exist. The statement is simply my conclusion and opinion.

You are free to disagree with anything I say.

But if you claim that they DO exist, I may ask you to prove your claim.

The only reason I would even bother to ask you to prove your claim is because I am willing to change my opinion if you can present sufficient evidence to the contrary.

So far I have not found enough evidence to convince me that King David and Abraham were real historical characters.

Yes, its just my opinion, so don't let it bother you.

no photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:00 PM
It boils down to this:

So far I have not found enough evidence to convince me that King David and Abraham were real historical characters.

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:37 PM
Edited by HotRodDeluxe on Sat 12/15/12 05:55 PM

One cannot discredit their existence until there is sufficient proof that they did actually exist.


That's is a ridiculous statement. Clearly you have no experience in ancient historical studies.


If you think that their non-existence needs to be proven then you must be assuming that they did exist. That is quite an assumption.


Again, your comprehension is rather lacking (not to mention the use of questionable logic behind such a statement). Try reading my posts agin, but slowly this time.

The burden of proof first lies with the claim that they exist. Prove that first.


We have literary evidence that suggests their existence and we have nothing that discounts it, so the burden of proof lies with the person discrediting their existence. I know you have trouble understanding this point, but that's the way it is. Claiming they are mythological figures is just that, an unsubstantiated claim. So, was Cyrus the Great a mytholgical figure?

Personally, I don't know if they did or did not exist.


There you have it, so why bother bringing it up?

My claim and belief is that there is not sufficient evidence that they ever did.


And that doesn't really carry any weight.

This specious attempt to delegitimise Israel has been around for some time and is borne of an anti-semitic agenda. No true historian gives this banality any credence, as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Really? What would any of it have to do with Israel???
There is nothing in the Bible, true or fabricated, that can "legitimize" today's Zionist Israel.


Oh, come on. Are you saying you don't get that? Seriously? I don't believe you.

The Bible contains elements of myth, that cannot be disputed, but it is also an historical document providing information on the political events and socio-economic conditions of ancient Israel. Moreover, the existence of many concomitant figures has been confirmed, therefore, the assumption that David and Abraham are mythological figures is purely a whim, and lacks any form of academic process and supporting evidence-it is only an opinion and a poorly formed one at that.


Mixing fictional characters with real ones and writing fiction around actual real places and events is called Literature.

They did have literature back then.


Durrrrrrrrr!!!! All ancient historiography is literature. Your point is still purely conjecture and not historically valid.

I believe they are fictional characters.


Who cares?

You can believe in the myth if you wish.


Again, your comprehension is failing you, I never said that, so please refrain from playing this sort of puerile game (it gets rather old and tiresome).

I cannot prove they did not exist but I have no reason to believe they did.


Again, why should we care what someone with no historical expertise might proffer??

I do have some good reasons to believe they were made up.


Your belief system doesn't qualify as a legitimate historical hypothesis.




no photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:43 PM
We have literary evidence that suggests their existence and we have nothingh that discounts it, so the burden of proof lies with the person discrediting their existence. I know you have trouble understanding this point, but that's the way it is.


Literary evidence that suggests?

I have more than that for the existence of Santa Clause. Hell Nasa even tracks his sleigh every year on the National Weather Station.





no photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:46 PM
The point is, with the gross lack of evidence for their actual existence, to suggest that these myths legitimize any Abrahamic religious notions is illogical and unscientific.




no photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:49 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 12/15/12 05:50 PM
There you have it, so why rave on about it?


Why indeed.

Its simple. Christians, Jews, and Muslims base their entire insane bloody religions on the Bible and they all depend on the existence of a character that most probably is entirely FICTION.

Why rave on about it?
BECAUSE IT IS ALL A LIE.


no photo
Sat 12/15/12 05:53 PM
Really? What would any of it have to do with Israel???
There is nothing in the Bible, true or fabricated, that can "legitimize" today's Zionist Israel.



Oh, come on. Are you saying you don't get that? Seriously?


Oh I get it. I just want to hear you say it.

Answer this question:

How does the Bible and the story of Abraham and King David (Most likely fictional) legitimize modern Zionist Israel?