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| Topic: Can an honest person not know what a lie is? | |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 04/03/12 05:23 PM
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Jb, What do you think about the assessment at the bottom of this post? -- Joe is in one room of a house. Jill comes in and asks Joe if he's the only one there. Unbeknownst to Joe, Mary is in the other room. Joe answers "yes". Is Joe lying? Pan: Joe was most certainly lying. He did lie if you take the question and his knowledge literally. Joe Knew Jill was also in the room as he responded to her question. I say that an answer of "no, of course not" should be Joe's honest answer. Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others. The above claims rest upon a couple of very dubious presuppositions. 1. In order for it to be true that "Joe was most certainly lying", then Joe would have to believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. In fact, we would have to know that Joe believed that in order to be certain. 2. Saying that "an answer of 'no, of course not' should be Joe's honest answer" is to say that Joe should believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. I think that a person who is lying is a person who is stating something he believes to be untrue. If a person believes what he is saying, then he is not lying, even if what he is saying is not true. Lying is deliberate deception. Now Creative knows that. Does Peter know that? I don't honestly know. His game is ego driven. |
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Jb, What do you think about the assessment at the bottom of this post? -- Joe is in one room of a house. Jill comes in and asks Joe if he's the only one there. Unbeknownst to Joe, Mary is in the other room. Joe answers "yes". Is Joe lying? Pan: Joe was most certainly lying. He did lie if you take the question and his knowledge literally. Joe Knew Jill was also in the room as he responded to her question. I say that an answer of "no, of course not" should be Joe's honest answer. Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others. The above claims rest upon a couple of very dubious presuppositions. 1. In order for it to be true that "Joe was most certainly lying", then Joe would have to believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. In fact, we would have to know that Joe believed that in order to be certain. 2. Saying that "an answer of 'no, of course not' should be Joe's honest answer" is to say that Joe should believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. I think that a person who is lying is a person who is stating something he believes to be untrue. If a person believes what he is saying, then he is not lying, even if what he is saying is not true. Lying is deliberate deception. Now Creative knows that. Does Peter know that? I don't honestly know. His game is ego driven. Fiction...  |
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1. Joe was most certainly lying. 2. He did lie if you take the question and his knowledge literally. 3. Joe Knew Jill was also in the room as he responded to her question. 4. I say that an answer of "no, of course not" should be Joe's honest answer. 5. Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others Those are your claims. The only way to make sense of them is by arguing for what Joe's interpretation of Jill's question is/was. #3 clearly implies that he believe that Joe should have counted Jill. |
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Here's an easy one for the 99.99th percentile.
What is the literal interpretation of "Are you alone?" if Jill asks Joe over the phone? |
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Jb, What do you think about the assessment at the bottom of this post? -- Joe is in one room of a house. Jill comes in and asks Joe if he's the only one there. Unbeknownst to Joe, Mary is in the other room. Joe answers "yes". Is Joe lying? Pan: Joe was most certainly lying. He did lie if you take the question and his knowledge literally. Joe Knew Jill was also in the room as he responded to her question. I say that an answer of "no, of course not" should be Joe's honest answer. Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others. The above claims rest upon a couple of very dubious presuppositions. 1. In order for it to be true that "Joe was most certainly lying", then Joe would have to believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. In fact, we would have to know that Joe believed that in order to be certain. 2. Saying that "an answer of 'no, of course not' should be Joe's honest answer" is to say that Joe should believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. I think that a person who is lying is a person who is stating something he believes to be untrue. If a person believes what he is saying, then he is not lying, even if what he is saying is not true. Lying is deliberate deception. Now Creative knows that. Does Peter know that? I don't honestly know. His game is ego driven. So, do you agree with the conclusion in 1 and 2 regarding what it would take for Pan's conclusions about Joe's honesty to be true? |
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Jb, What do you think about the assessment at the bottom of this post? -- Joe is in one room of a house. Jill comes in and asks Joe if he's the only one there. Unbeknownst to Joe, Mary is in the other room. Joe answers "yes". Is Joe lying? Pan: Joe was most certainly lying. He did lie if you take the question and his knowledge literally. Joe Knew Jill was also in the room as he responded to her question. I say that an answer of "no, of course not" should be Joe's honest answer. Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others. The above claims rest upon a couple of very dubious presuppositions. 1. In order for it to be true that "Joe was most certainly lying", then Joe would have to believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. In fact, we would have to know that Joe believed that in order to be certain. 2. Saying that "an answer of 'no, of course not' should be Joe's honest answer" is to say that Joe should believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. I think that a person who is lying is a person who is stating something he believes to be untrue. If a person believes what he is saying, then he is not lying, even if what he is saying is not true. Lying is deliberate deception. Now Creative knows that. Does Peter know that? I don't honestly know. His game is ego driven. So, do you agree with the conclusion in 1 and 2 regarding what it would take for Pan's conclusions about Joe's honesty to be true? Yes of course. |
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Edited by
creativesoul
on
Tue 04/03/12 05:38 PM
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Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others.
--- What kind of person would walk into a house, look at another and ask them "are you isolated from others?" knowing that they were there as well(expecting the person to count the questioner)? Better yet, what kind of person would insist that an honest answer to the question "are you the only one here?" should count the questioner, and if they do not, then they are most certainly lying? |
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Here's an easy one for the 99.99th percentile. What is the literal interpretation of "Are you alone?" if Jill asks Joe over the phone? |
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Yeah, I think that the true colors have been shown clearly enough. Time to leave this thread for dead unless someone wants to posit another scenario in order to apply the criterion, or use the same one to posit different answers so that we can look at how the criterion works on those as well.
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Jb, What do you think about the assessment at the bottom of this post? -- Joe is in one room of a house. Jill comes in and asks Joe if he's the only one there. Unbeknownst to Joe, Mary is in the other room. Joe answers "yes". Is Joe lying? Pan: Joe was most certainly lying. He did lie if you take the question and his knowledge literally. Joe Knew Jill was also in the room as he responded to her question. I say that an answer of "no, of course not" should be Joe's honest answer. Jill was literally asking Joe if he was isolated from others. The above claims rest upon a couple of very dubious presuppositions. 1. In order for it to be true that "Joe was most certainly lying", then Joe would have to believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. In fact, we would have to know that Joe believed that in order to be certain. 2. Saying that "an answer of 'no, of course not' should be Joe's honest answer" is to say that Joe should believe that Jill was asking him to count her when she asked him if he was the only one there. I think that a person who is lying is a person who is stating something he believes to be untrue. If a person believes what he is saying, then he is not lying, even if what he is saying is not true. Lying is deliberate deception. Now Creative knows that. Does Peter know that? I don't honestly know. His game is ego driven. So, do you agree with the conclusion in 1 and 2 regarding what it would take for Pan's conclusions about Joe's honesty to be true? Yes of course. It's the only way I can see to make sense of it. |
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Yeah, I think that the true colors have been shown clearly enough. Time to leave this thread for dead unless someone wants to posit another scenario in order to apply the criterion, or use the same one to posit different answers so that we can look at how the criterion works on those as well. I offered a scenario, you chickened out. You refused to answer my question as posed to you. The "blame" if there is any is on you for failure to engage honestly. |
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Yeah, I think that the true colors have been shown clearly enough. Time to leave this thread for dead unless someone wants to posit another scenario in order to apply the criterion, or use the same one to posit different answers so that we can look at how the criterion works on those as well. Yes, there is a troll in here. |
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Oh yeah, I'm still waiting on your proof that I have been dishonest.  |
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Edited by
Peter_Pan69
on
Tue 04/03/12 05:47 PM
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Yeah, I think that the true colors have been shown clearly enough. Time to leave this thread for dead unless someone wants to posit another scenario in order to apply the criterion, or use the same one to posit different answers so that we can look at how the criterion works on those as well. Yes, there is a troll in here. Two actually. You forgot to count yourself. |
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What's the point in wrestling with pig? In the end, you both get dirty, and the pig loves it.
Pan, you've went for 20 something odd pages without offering a single argument for your claims which have been since shown to be highly suspect, at best and utter nonsense, at worst. I'm not interested. Gather your thoughts, and say something intelligible. Until then, and you can trust me on this... I'm through with wallowing in your self-imposed ignorance along with you. |
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What's the point in wrestling with pig? In the end, you both get dirty, and the pig loves it. Pan, you've went for 20 something odd pages without offering a single argument for your claims which have been since shown to be highly suspect, at best and utter nonsense, at worst. I'm not interested. Gather your thoughts, and say something intelligible. Until then, and you can trust me on this... I'm through with wallowing in your self-imposed ignorance along with you. You lie (again). I've offered my argument way back at the beginning. The past 20 pages has been you acting childish trying to prove dishonesty on my part and me every now and then re-stating exactly what I said. 20 pages of you lying about what I wrote and said. Typical actually. You've proven yourself to be deceitful, scared and ignorant to basic language skills. It's not my fault you aren't bright enough to understand what "literal" means... Now slink away and pretend like you've proven something, because your imagination is the only place where you can make that claim. You make the rest of us 99.99th percentile ranked people look bad. |
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End of thread.
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End of thread. Of course it is. Dishonest testimony had been shown to come from creative and he can't deny it anymore. Soooo, running away is the only option. |
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Here's the criterion being put to the test...
The honesty of testimony is solely determined by whether or not the speaker believes what they're saying. An honest answer to a question is determined by what the listener thinks that the speaker is asking for, in addition to whether or not the listener offers an answer that they believe captures that. Earlier an interesting and humorous example was offered in which a kid was instructed to "...say Art Linkletter like you're mad." Now most folk realize, through having used language throughout our lives that the child was being asked to say "Art Linkletter" in an angry voice. I mean that is why is served to be a funny answer for us. However, the child did not quite grasp what he was being asked to do, and instead he repeated "Art Linkletter like your mad", to which the audience and Art himself began laughing while the kid had a look a bewilderment as if he didn't quite get what was so funny. So when we examine this scenario based upon the above criterion, the child's answer was certainly honest, because he offered an answer which he believed captured what he was being asked for; he did what he thought he was being asked to do, in this case. The criterion holds good here. |
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Give it up! Geez...
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