Topic: Can an honest person not know what a lie is?
creativesoul's photo
Thu 04/05/12 08:17 PM
Edited by creativesoul on Thu 04/05/12 08:22 PM
If you were in a house knowing that Mary was in another room and Jill walked in and asked you if you were alone, what information do you think/believe that Jill would be asked you to provide for her?


I would think that she wanted to speak privately just like any other rational and intelligent human being.


That doesn't follow from the provided context, specifically, the portion which stated that Jill looked around after Joe answered "yes", found Mary, and then asked Joe why he lied.

Nor does it answer the question being asked.

What information do you think/believe that Jill would be asking you to provide for her?

no photo
Thu 04/05/12 08:53 PM

If you were in a house knowing that Mary was in another room and Jill walked in and asked you if you were alone, what information do you think/believe that Jill would be asked you to provide for her?


I would think that she wanted to speak privately just like any other rational and intelligent human being.


That doesn't follow from the provided context, specifically, the portion which stated that Jill looked around after Joe answered "yes", found Mary, and then asked Joe why he lied.

Nor does it answer the question being asked.

What information do you think/believe that Jill would be asking you to provide for her?



Seriously? The "context"? Joe = me or what?

Any normal person knows when someone walks into the same room you are in and asks you if you're alone that they wish to speak privately. Jill is an idiot for implying Joe lied.

Unless you wish to state that the objection and accusation came before the question???


creativesoul's photo
Thu 04/05/12 08:58 PM
Well, that meaning is certainly a possibility, and I suspect that we've all used it at one time or another.

No argument here.

creativesoul's photo
Thu 04/05/12 09:04 PM
I supposed that you'd taken the entire context into consideration. Evidently that was a wrongful presuppositon. If we are Joe when the question is first posed, we could - depending upon connotation, facial expressions and the like - know that that is what Jill was asking for. However, if Jill then looked around, found Mary, and asked why we lied we would have to explain that we misunderstood the question. The problem is that when asking to speak in private, the speaker usually has readily identifiable cues that are not present when asking if anyone else is home.

It is plausible though, no question there.

no photo
Thu 04/05/12 09:22 PM

I supposed that you'd taken the entire context into consideration. Evidently that was a wrongful presuppositon. If we are Joe when the question is first posed, we could - depending upon connotation, facial expressions and the like - know that that is what Jill was asking for. However, if Jill then looked around, found Mary, and asked why we lied we would have to explain that we misunderstood the question. The problem is that when asking to speak in private, the speaker usually has readily identifiable cues that are not present when asking if anyone else is home.

It is plausible though, no question there.



So, let me know if this is correct.

You would allow for an interpretation of Jill asking to speak privately to Joe (me), yet argue against an interpretation of "there" being the room Joe (I) was in?


AdventureBegins's photo
Thu 04/05/12 10:38 PM
Eeek...

How can 'there' have any bearing upon the story told to set up the discorse.

by its very nature it is not 'here'...

At the point in the story where Jill and Joe shared 'here'...

I grow dizzy trying to follow the logic.

it goes round in circles for the strife.

creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 12:12 AM


I supposed that you'd taken the entire context into consideration. Evidently that was a wrongful presuppositon. If we are Joe when the question is first posed, we could - depending upon connotation, facial expressions and the like - know that that is what Jill was asking for. However, if Jill then looked around, found Mary, and asked why we lied we would have to explain that we misunderstood the question. The problem is that when asking to speak in private, the speaker usually has readily identifiable cues that are not present when asking if anyone else is home.

It is plausible though, no question there.


So, let me know if this is correct.

You would allow for an interpretation of Jill asking to speak privately to Joe (me), yet argue against an interpretation of "there" being the room Joe (I) was in?


That is correct.

I am conceding to the idea that "Are you the only one here?" could indicate that Jill wants to speak to Joe in private. I am further saying that in order to know if that is what she meant it would require being there in person because those words do not mean that as spoken, therefore Jill's body language and intonation would offer the additional contextual information necessary to infer such a thing. It is possible that that could be what is meant by that expression.

Furthermore, I am saying that if Jill meant "can we speak privately" she wouldn't ask "Are you the only one here?" while meaning the room that they were both occupying, because she would be in that room and could see that much for herself so there would be no need to ask for information regarding that. Rather, she would be asking if it were possible to speak in private, which implies being uninterrupted by others. So, if that is the meaning intended, then she would be asking if anyone else were in the house.

no photo
Fri 04/06/12 12:20 AM



I supposed that you'd taken the entire context into consideration. Evidently that was a wrongful presuppositon. If we are Joe when the question is first posed, we could - depending upon connotation, facial expressions and the like - know that that is what Jill was asking for. However, if Jill then looked around, found Mary, and asked why we lied we would have to explain that we misunderstood the question. The problem is that when asking to speak in private, the speaker usually has readily identifiable cues that are not present when asking if anyone else is home.

It is plausible though, no question there.


So, let me know if this is correct.

You would allow for an interpretation of Jill asking to speak privately to Joe (me), yet argue against an interpretation of "there" being the room Joe (I) was in?


That is correct.

I am conceding to the idea that "Are you the only one here?" could indicate that Jill wants to speak to Joe in private. I am further saying that in order to know if that is what she meant it would require being there in person because those words do not mean that as spoken, therefore Jill's body language and intonation would offer the additional contextual information necessary to infer such a thing. It is possible that that could be what is meant by that expression.

Furthermore, I am saying that if Jill meant "can we speak privately" she wouldn't ask "Are you the only one here?" while meaning the room that they were both occupying, because she would be in that room and could see that much for herself so there would be no need to ask for information regarding that. Rather, she would be asking if it were possible to speak in private, which implies being uninterrupted by others. So, if that is the meaning intended, then she would be asking if anyone else were in the house.


OK, since I have some leeway now, I'll speculate that it's possible Joe cares for his newborn baby and sometimes the baby is not always in Jill's direct line of sight. Therefore Joe could very well have understood her to be implying she wanted to know if his baby was in the room.


creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 12:30 AM
I find no reason for Jill to be concerned about Joe's newborn baby compromising an otherwise private conversation. It's not like they understand what is being spoken. Mary still is in the other room, isn't she?

no photo
Fri 04/06/12 12:42 AM

I find no reason for Jill to be concerned about Joe's newborn baby compromising an otherwise private conversation. It's not like they understand what is being spoken. Mary still is in the other room, isn't she?


Jill may have wanted to smoke...


creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 01:06 AM
You figure that that is logically implied by what has been given?

creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 01:50 AM
I mean, how do you(Joe) possibly infer all of that from "Are you the only one here?"

huh

I mean it could be the case that Jill was really a guy, Joe is gay, and Jill had a chocolate lollipop that s/he wanted to stick up Joe's arse in some weird sexual fantasy... but we have no reason to posit nor infer such a thing.

no photo
Fri 04/06/12 01:56 AM

I mean, how do you(Joe) possibly infer all of that from "Are you the only one here?"

huh

I mean it could be the case that Jill was really a guy, Joe is gay, and Jill had a chocolate lollipop that s/he wanted to stick up Joe's arse in some weird sexual fantasy... but we have no reason to posit nor infer such a thing.



Well you didn't explicitly deny such a possibility, makes me wonder now...



creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 02:09 AM
What is there to wonder?

That's just not how language works Pan. We do not walk around telling others everything that we don't mean. Why ought we require others to do such a thing regarding hyoptheticals? The context is given and there are some things that can be inferred from it, and others that cannot.

It is possible that Jill could have wanted to speak to Joe privately. It is possible that she could use her body language and tone of voice along with "Are you the only one here?" to get that meaning across. It does not follow that she would be asking Joe about others in that particular room for reasons already explained.


no photo
Fri 04/06/12 03:09 AM
What is there to wonder?



This red flag...


I mean, how do you(Joe) possibly infer all of that from "Are you the only one here?"

huh

I mean it could be the case that Jill was really a guy, Joe is gay, and Jill had a chocolate lollipop that s/he wanted to stick up Joe's arse in some weird sexual fantasy... but we have no reason to posit nor infer such a thing.



Well you didn't explicitly deny such a possibility, makes me wonder now...





creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 11:40 AM
Still not getting what you're objection is. What makes that a red flag?

huh

creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 12:12 PM
It seems that you do not understand how language works Pan. Look at how folk communicate. If we want to go to McDonalds to eat a Big Mac and fries, we do not go through and explicitly deny of all of the places that we do not want to go and/or all of the things on the menu that we do not want to order. We state what we want and others understand. That is because meaning is public and shared, not private and unknown. Meaning is found by looking at how folk are using words.

Why then, during a thought experiment ought the author have to explicitly deny each and every logically possible meaning of every word s/he employs? Why ought the author be required to take an account of every possible meaning, or give an account which excludes all other possibl meanings but the one that is intended? It seems that you still have not apprehended the brute fact that there is no exactitude of meaning possible with natural/common language. That is why formal languages have been created.




no photo
Fri 04/06/12 03:55 PM
It seems that you do not understand how language works Pan.


Says Mr. 99.99% whoa You've proven to be a poor judge of many things.



Look at how folk communicate. If we want to go to McDonalds to eat a Big Mac and fries, we do not go through and explicitly deny of all of the places that we do not want to go and/or all of the things on the menu that we do not want to order. We state what we want and others understand.


"We", do NOT get confused over a "red flag" and misjudge the topic of my sentence.



That is because meaning is public and shared, not private and unknown. Meaning is found by looking at how folk are using words.


You jest of course. I asked for your interpretation of "there" and you kept it private untill well after the fact. whoa



Why then, during a thought experiment ought the author have to explicitly deny each and every logically possible meaning of every word s/he employs? Why ought the author be required to take an account of every possible meaning, or give an account which excludes all other possibl meanings but the one that is intended? It seems that you still have not apprehended the brute fact that there is no exactitude of meaning possible with natural/common language. That is why formal languages have been created.


The author should learn to express her thoughts more clearly so as to not allow for assumptions if she's gonna get her panties in a bunch whenever someone doesn't assume the same assinine things that she does...


Hilarious!!!



creativesoul's photo
Fri 04/06/12 07:09 PM
There's the colors again. She would kick yer arse in person.

bigsmile

no photo
Fri 04/06/12 07:15 PM

There's the colors again. She would kick yer arse in person.

bigsmile



Before or after I pull my pants up???