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Topic: Murder deterent . . stalking felony?
no photo
Wed 03/14/12 03:52 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 03/14/12 03:53 PM
http://wtvr.com/2012/03/14/henrico-police-capture-murder-suspect-alvin-marshall/
HENRICO COUNTY, Va. (WTVR) – Henrico police confirm the capture of murder suspect Alvin Rashawn Marshall happened around 10 p.m. on Tuesday. The arrest came following an all day search after the body of Tiffany Green was found murdered just after midnight, off 300 block of Newbridge Road.

Police said two young children and Green’s teenage sister were in the home when the shooting happened.

Court documents would indicate that 21-year-old Tiffany Green spent the last few months of her life living in fear. She had told the courts and her family that her ex-boyfriend Alvin Rashawn Marshall threatened her; harassed her at home and work with text messages and phone calls. He even assaulted her.

“Somewhere along the line there was a failure in being able to protect her,” said Gena Boyle, advocate against domestic violence.

It appears from her paper trail in court that Green had tried to sound the alarm. She’d been granted two emergency protective orders in January and February. She had filed criminal charges for harassment, assault and extortion against the Marshall.

Advocates claim protection orders can be helpful when they’re enforced by those who surround the victim but in some extreme cases filing for one can escalate matters.

“It can cause more danger because the abuser realizes that he’s losing control of the victim that she’s reaching out,” said Boyle.

Boyle recognizes a pattern in the Green case that she sees with many victims that seek help.

“It sounds to me like this is a very classic case of stalking,” said Boyle.

In Virginia a stalking offense has a tough burden of proof and only becomes a felony after the third conviction.

Delegate Jennifer McClellan has been trying strengthen the law or six years following the murder of a University of Richmond student by her former boyfriend.

“Stalking escalates to violence escalates to murder,” said McClellan.

McClellan’s bill fails year after year when it gets to the funding part.

Creating a new felony carries a budget price tag $50,000 dollars in the Virginia legislature. McClellan says Green’s case is yet another reason she’ll bring it again next year.

“Unless we do something this going to keep happening, I hope it doesn’t take another woman getting killed before we realize that,” said McClellan


So making a felony of stalking is going to prevent murder? Lowering the burden of proof is going to increase safety?


sigh . . more paper protection mentalities.

msharmony's photo
Wed 03/14/12 03:55 PM
nothing prevents murder, humans have murdered since the beginning of their existence

but , sometimes, the possibility of more than a slap on the wrist, works to DETER people from committing crimes,,,

JERMANICUS's photo
Wed 03/14/12 04:43 PM
I fully agree that more crimes should be felonies and if you don't want to get a felony then don't commit a crime!

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 07:02 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 03/15/12 07:12 AM
What is the point of making new felonies if they are not a deterrent. The legislature in the article thinks it would be a deterrent and that is the motivation for creating the new felony.

If you imagine a set of possible stalkers where some go on to cause real crimes such as assault, theft, trespassing, or murder, but that some just get over it then you are not criminalizing all these people even the ones that snap out of it. You also have to figure out a way to characterize stalking without trampling on peoples rights.

It amazes me how little people think about what it takes to determine if a law has been broken and how to setup a law which can be enforced and not be abused.

Delegate Jennifer McClellan thinks that a such a law would have prevented the murder of Tiffany Green.

If you do not agree then how could you support such a new law?
If such a law was put in place how would it be enforced?
What criteria of the crime would determine that the crime has taken place?

nothing prevents murder, humans have murdered since the beginning of their existence

but , sometimes, the possibility of more than a slap on the wrist, works to DETER people from committing crimes,,,
You just love playing word games. If a murderer was deterred from killing, that crime was prevented. This little play on words is not what this thread is about. msharmony do you agree with Delegate Jennifer McClellan? If so why? also please do your best to answer the questions above on how you think this law should work.

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 07:28 AM

nothing prevents murder, humans have murdered since the beginning of their existence


Self defense does. When the murderer is dead or held at gun point, he/she finds it very hard to complete the crime. Same goes for rape, robbery and well every other freaking crime imaginable.

msharmony's photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:03 AM


nothing prevents murder, humans have murdered since the beginning of their existence


Self defense does. When the murderer is dead or held at gun point, he/she finds it very hard to complete the crime. Same goes for rape, robbery and well every other freaking crime imaginable.




that prevents SOME murders sometimes,, so does the deterrent of jail

but nothing will stop all murder everywhere,,people will continue to murder regardless of laws but that doesnt mean laws and other deterrents arent necessary to minimize those potential numbers

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:16 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 03/15/12 08:34 AM
but nothing will stop all murder everywhere,,people will continue to murder regardless of laws but that doesnt mean laws and other deterrents arent necessary to minimize those potential numbers
Ok . . this is stating the obvious. I do not see how this is answering the questions central to this threads OP.

In what way does making stalking laws felonies influence murders.
How can law enforcement determine if a stalker is a stalker and not just a citizen driving around with a camera, would journalist be stalkers with possible felony violations for waiting around to get a picture? ie what elements make it a crime?

What are the ramifications of these kinds of laws, and would they really be a deterrent. Would a stalker even know about these laws prior to being convicted? If not how would that be a deterrent?

The real questions are much harder to answer than the obvious ones . . .

msharmony's photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:30 AM

but nothing will stop all murder everywhere,,people will continue to murder regardless of laws but that doesnt mean laws and other deterrents arent necessary to minimize those potential numbers
Ok . . this is stating the obvious. I do not see how this is answering the questions central to this threads OP.

In what way does making stalking laws felonies influence murders.
How can law enforcement determine if a stalker is a stalker and not just a citizen driving around with a camera, would journalist be stalkers with possible felony violations for waiting around to get a picture?

What are the ramifications of these kinds of laws, and would they really be a deterrent. Would a stalker even know about these laws prior to being convicted? If not how would that be a deterrent?

The real questions are much harder to answer than the obvious ones . . .


yet, IM still gonna take a shot,,lol

I Wasnt answering the OP, I Was responding to this statement
"So making a felony of stalking is going to prevent murder?"


a stalker, is kind of like a rapist, its determined when the victim says its unwanted and files the charges/complaint


making something a felony (meaning the minimum usually served is usually a year, unlike a misdemeanor where a year is usually the max)
is a deterrent the same way that some feel owning a gun is a deterrent,,,,when and if people weigh potential consequences of their actions, they sometimes reconsider and choose another path

a journalist SHOULD be a stalker if they are following around someone who has taken the time to get a TRO that they STAY AWAY from them,,, being a journalist shouldnt give someone a pass to violate my space if not wanted anymore than a doctor has a pass to rape me

a stalker convicted of stalking would no doubt be explained their rights and the consequences of violations along with what constitutes violations

and this could very well deter them




metalwing's photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:41 AM
She should have had a gun and been trained how to use it.

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:47 AM
making something a felony (meaning the minimum usually served is usually a year, unlike a misdemeanor where a year is usually the max)
is a deterrent the same way that some feel owning a gun is a deterrent,,,,when and if people weigh potential consequences of their actions, they sometimes reconsider and choose another path
Do you agree that most people do not know the law? Do you agree that knowledge of the penalty is required for the penalty to be a deterrent?


a journalist SHOULD be a stalker if they are following around someone who has taken the time to get a TRO that they STAY AWAY from them,,, being a journalist shouldn't give someone a pass to violate my space if not wanted anymore than a doctor has a pass to rape me
How large is your personal space? If the person was 100 yards away watching you would that be violating your personal space?

msharmony's photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:48 AM

She should have had a gun and been trained how to use it.



hard to shoot if not given a chance to aim,,,it would have been no guarantee

but it would be justified if she had made that choice as long as she was responsible enough to keep it away from where the children could harm themself or others,,,

metalwing's photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:55 AM
I she had been trained to use a gun properly,none of your exceptions apply and he would have been shot and killed.

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 08:58 AM
It's common when individual horrendous crimes occur that people look for ways to legislate away a possible recurrence.

This mentality usually, but not always, does more harm than good.


msharmony's photo
Thu 03/15/12 09:00 AM

making something a felony (meaning the minimum usually served is usually a year, unlike a misdemeanor where a year is usually the max)
is a deterrent the same way that some feel owning a gun is a deterrent,,,,when and if people weigh potential consequences of their actions, they sometimes reconsider and choose another path
Do you agree that most people do not know the law? Do you agree that knowledge of the penalty is required for the penalty to be a deterrent?


a journalist SHOULD be a stalker if they are following around someone who has taken the time to get a TRO that they STAY AWAY from them,,, being a journalist shouldn't give someone a pass to violate my space if not wanted anymore than a doctor has a pass to rape me
How large is your personal space? If the person was 100 yards away watching you would that be violating your personal space?



the distance would be based upon frequency and seriousness of the 'threat'

So I would think 100 yards would be excessive for a journalist

anyplace close enough that I would have a flash in my face though,,,is too close for me


for someone who had verbally threatened bodily harm or who had physically harmed me in the past,, a distance far enough to give me reasonable time to get to safety would be reasonable

so 100 yards wouldnt be quite as excessive in that case

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 09:25 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 03/15/12 09:28 AM
I think trying to detail the elements of a stalking crime makes for a very challenging endeavor to try to balance individual rights vs a persons perceived safety.

I just dont think its possible for a law to be effective in this way, and also not violate citizens rights.

The only protection which is effective, and does not violate anyone rights is personal protection via being armed.

That form of protection is only taken up when the attacker has already decided to violate your rights, his end where yours begin. No infringement, no trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with a stalker law, and then have ignorance of law removing the actual ability for it to deter.

With all the negatives, I just cant see it being worth while for the limited potential for effectiveness, and this is probably why this has been swatted down time after time in that particular legislature.

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 11:00 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 03/15/12 11:05 AM
I also wonder of the total number of "stalkers" how many end up committing a real crime vs just being annoying.

Also I wonder if stalking is caused by psychological issues that would be better corrected by not placing a person in prison with a felony charge.

It is easy to want to lock up that which you do not understand, its much harder to research, study, and come to understand and develop best practices to mitigate certain behaviors.

metalwing's photo
Thu 03/15/12 11:19 AM

I also wonder of the total number of "stalkers" how many end up committing a real crime vs just being annoying.

Also I wonder if stalking is caused by psychological issues that would be better corrected by not placing a person in prison with a felony charge.

It is easy to want to lock up that which you do not understand, its much harder to research, study, and come to understand and develop best practices to mitigate certain behaviors.


Bullets mitigate certain behaviors. Scopes mitigate certain behaviors at a greater distance.

no photo
Thu 03/15/12 11:42 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 03/15/12 11:44 AM


I also wonder of the total number of "stalkers" how many end up committing a real crime vs just being annoying.

Also I wonder if stalking is caused by psychological issues that would be better corrected by not placing a person in prison with a felony charge.

It is easy to want to lock up that which you do not understand, its much harder to research, study, and come to understand and develop best practices to mitigate certain behaviors.


Bullets mitigate certain behaviors. Scopes mitigate certain behaviors at a greater distance.
I agree, I actually support open carry, studies show that when a criminal who is planning an attack sees a person with a holstered pistol universally they change there plans and 98% decided to call off the attack, the other %2 held off the attack until the armed person left. So %100 did not want to engage in the planned attack so long as the armed person was there. (surveys of federal prisoners being held for violent crimes.)

Crazy is crazy, but when someone is not crazy they just do not want to risk attacking an armed citizen.


msharmony's photo
Thu 03/15/12 12:00 PM

I she had been trained to use a gun properly,none of your exceptions apply and he would have been shot and killed.



knowing how to use a gun properly still doesnt erase the human ability to be caught off gaurd

since there is no way of knowing HOW the shooting happened or what preperation or warning she had preceeding her death, there is no way to know if she would have had the 'opportunity' to use those skills or not...

msharmony's photo
Thu 03/15/12 12:08 PM

I think trying to detail the elements of a stalking crime makes for a very challenging endeavor to try to balance individual rights vs a persons perceived safety.

I just dont think its possible for a law to be effective in this way, and also not violate citizens rights.

The only protection which is effective, and does not violate anyone rights is personal protection via being armed.

That form of protection is only taken up when the attacker has already decided to violate your rights, his end where yours begin. No infringement, no trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with a stalker law, and then have ignorance of law removing the actual ability for it to deter.

With all the negatives, I just cant see it being worth while for the limited potential for effectiveness, and this is probably why this has been swatted down time after time in that particular legislature.



I think laws are never absolute and vary in minute to grandiose ways from case to case and detail to detail

no singular absolute consequence deters 100 percent of the time, and that sums up what the 'negative' is for me

but that doesnt give me pause about laws being in place to deter crime and set standards for what is and is not acceptable behavior in our society,,,,

the country is pretty big, the states are decent sizes, and even in smaller cities,, the chances of two people who dont WANT to be in the same place consistently being in view of each other depends greatly on the actual EFFORT one or both are making to do so

its not an imposition to ask someone to stay away from me, its actually easier than asking them to follow me around

its not an imposition for the law to back up my request once its made either if there is a 'perception' of threat on my part

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