JESUS IS NOT THE FATHER

So how can He be God ?


The church and more importantly the Bible recognizes the deity of

the Son. Most cults strip him of this making the Son only a man, an

angel or at best a secondary divine being created by the Father.

They ignore the fact that the son is called God just as the Father

is. If one says the Son or Spirit are not called God then they

would have to be consistent and say the Father is not either.The

reason the Father is explicitly called God by Jesus is because he

is honoring another instead of himself. Each person in the godhead

does this, yet we find their is a hierachial structure (a

successive order not in time but of position).



Jesus is called the Son over 200 times throughout the N.T. The

Father is referred to as distinct from the Son over 200 times. Over

50 times Jesus the Son and the Father are mentioned in the same

verse. Yet we find Paul’s greeting as grace and peace from both God

the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus identifies himself as

the Son of God all throughout the Bible. He is always put on equal

status with the Father being able to bestow grace to the believer.

The only time he is not equal is by POSITION, never in NATURE.



John 20:31 ...That Jesus is the Christ the Son of God." Jn.16:3 "And

these things they will do to you because they have not known the

Father nor me." Here he is distinguishing himself as another from

the Father. Jesus separates himself from the Father in PERSON but

NOT in nature.



Jn.10:30: " I and my father are one" this is not a numerical one,

Jesus is not saying he is the father. they are not one person but

in nature they are a united one. It actually reads we are one in

Greek the first person plural esmen . Examining his claim

further "I and my Father are one." The Jews pick up stones because

they understood this as blasphemy in vs. 36 Jesus interprets what he

meant by saying because I said, "I am the Son of God." There is a

very good reason for this because…. Contrary to those who claim the

Son of God means less than God it actually AFFIRMED his DEITY.



In Jn.20:17 Jesus said "I am ascending to my Father and your Father

to my God and your God." Anti-Trinitarians claim since Jesus had a

God over him he could not also be God. Now what we are NOT saying is

that He is the Father or the Spirit. Coming in the servant role and

as a man he was submissive to the Father as a Son. Notice he makes

a distinction from "my Father and your Father" not saying our

Father. The same is applied to " my God and your God." As a man he

acknowledged the Father as "my God" .We are unable to say this in

the same manner as he did. God is his Father from eternity past, he

being the Son of eternal generation. Thomas bowed before Jesus

saying, he is his God and his Lord, Jesus could not say the Father

was his Lord in the way man does.



Jn.11:41-43 Jesus lifts his eyes toward heaven and prays, " I thank

you that you heard me, and I know that you always hear me." We see

consistently he is praying toward heaven just like all the saints

in the O.T.. So why pray if you're God ?

Because he is dependent on God in his lowered state and he is giving

us the perfect example of our having a relationship with the

Father. The Son was instructed by the Father as his God, since he

decided not to use his position independently.


Jesus never referred to his Father as "our Father"

in prayer together with others. Father was a term for the Jews who

were in covenant with God . Jesus who being God in nature was

divine and equal in all respects to God could not call God his

Father as we do, being adopted children. God was his Father in a

different sense than ours, in that they were united together from

eternity. So he makes a distinction of "my" and "our". " "When

Christ prayed to the Father, you have the Son on earth the Father

in heaven. this is not separation but divine disposition. now we

know that God is within the depth's and exists everywhere, but in

might and power, the Son being, indivisible from the Father is

everywhere with him, yet in the economy, the Father willed that the

Son should be found on the Earth, himself ( the Father ) in

heaven." (Tetullian.) What he is explaining is that the OMNI-

PRESENCE OF GOD IS EVERYWHERE yet the LOCATION of his persons are in

DIFFERENT areas. ( Jn.11:41-42,12:28, 17:1-26)



Mt. 26:39-42 In Gethsamane he prays three times to the Father in

doing his will. Why does he ask for the Father to let this cup pass

if he is God, Isn’t this like asking himself? Jesus' ( 2nd person

of God ) was God communing with God the Father (1st person of

God ). Jesus is struggling over the soon and coming separation he

will experience with the Father. He is asking if there be another

way so he will not experience this. Otherwise he has his own human

will that is not submitted to God and he is sinning. The concept the

scriptures portray of the crucifixion is not that God died but that

he was separated spiritually and died in the flesh . In Gethsamane

it was the cup that Jesus asked to be removed. If he was praying

that he would not have to experience physical death he would be

rejecting the very reason he came. His obedience is shown as in

Phil.2 says even to the death on the cross. He would not be praying

for the very purpose of his coming to be removed.



This is why the cults deny the deity of Christ because they

recognize that these are two different persons. It is because of

their preconceived ideas and training that God is strictly

singular. In their attempt to uphold Monotheism they cannot receive

the teaching of his nature being triune, they then lose the Son of

God as a distinct person.




http://www.letusreason.org/Trin6.htm

Matt 24:36-37: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.



This is a idiom - for the exact time. No one knows the day or the hour when he comes (referring to the rapture/resurrection) Jesus is speaking in the present tense and is telling us what the time period will be like when it takes place- like the days of Noah.



The same verse Mark writes and adds:

Mark 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

He adds nor the son.

The command for Man in his coming is:

Matt 25:13: “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.”



Jesus makes it clear a number of times Matt 24:42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” So we can be sure that NO man can discover through the word or revelation this day (also Luke 12:38-39), it is unknown to man.


This is a matter of omniscience versus knowledge-Only God knows all things.

Mark 13:32: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

Does this prove Jesus was not God as some disbelievers in His deity claim?



Barnes' commentary states: “This text has always presented serious difficulties. It has been asked, If Jesus had a divine nature, how could he say that he did not know the day and hour of a future event? Some have said that the verb rendered “knoweth” means sometimes to “make” known or to reveal, and that the passage means, “that day and hour none makes known, neither the angels, nor the Son, but the Father.” It is true that the word has sometimes that meaning, as in 1 Cor 2:2, but then it is natural to ask where has “the Father” made it known? (from Barnes' Notes)



Lewis Sperry Chafer says nearly the same of Mark 13:32 where it is recorded that Christ declared that He did not know the day nor the hour of His return, it may be observed that the passage is not unlike 1 Corinthians 2:2 where the Apostle wrote, “For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” The thought is not to make known, or not to cause another to know. The truth mentioned was not then, as to its time, committed either to the Son or to the angels to publish.”



That is a good point, we know Paul taught the Church the whole counsel of God, so his speaking was not just limited to Christ crucified. But it was the main thing he taught the churches. so the question is did Jesus not know at that time or would not make it known to his disciples then.



There are numerous explanations for this difficult and perplexing verse. Some point out that the ancient Greek manuscripts do not contain the words “neither the son.”



Some others explain Jesus saying that the Son did not know, by His speaking according to his humanity, not his divinity. After saying that neither men nor angels know the day He adds Himself. In his humanity it was not revealed to him by the Father, as he is still in subjection to the Father in the role of a servant waiting for His instruction.



In a similar interpretation others say that His ignorance is due to hidden knowledge kept from him that He willingly allowed, (as a man he grew in wisdom and knowledge). The knowledge of the humanity of Jesus is dependant upon the divine- Jesus knew all things that was revealed to him (Jn 2:25; 16:30; 21:17). In his humanity, he had limited knowledge (Mk 13:32; Lk 2:52), in the same way he had all power, yet he was hungry and would become weak and slept.



Another comparable explanation is that Jesus as the speaker- represents Himself as receiving His instructions from the Father daily, being instructed each morning what to communicate for that day. In this view, the precise time of His coming was certainly not given in His instructions; as He had not “seen and heard” it, so he cannot “testify” of it. He had no communication from His Father on this subject at that time.



The answer is found in Philippians 2:5-8, where Jesus is made a servant. A servant does not act or say anything on his own initiative but waits in obedience.



Philippians 2:7-8: “but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.”



The willful subordination of the Son as explained in Philippians 2, that in His state of humility as both man and God he was not commissioned (yet) to have the time revealed Philippians 2, describes the “ kenosis.” HE DID NOT LOSE HIS DIVINE ATTRIBUTES , but gave up their independent use.



The Son of God as one Person possessed of two natures and as a man was able to draw upon the attributes inherent in His divine nature when it was the will of the Father. And although “all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid in Him,” He only did what was allowed by his Father: “I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things” (John 5:19).



Jesus was perfect in everything He did, and he was also perfect in being a servant.


In Acts 1:6-7 AFTER the resurrection the disciples ask Jesus- “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.” Jesus has already stated He would come again to retrieve his church.



John14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The timing of this event when He was on earth is not revealed. Jesus in his mediatorial position as high priest is not authorized to officially make it known to his church.



And this is why, Jesus says in Matt 24:37: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”


In Noah's day when the flood was coming, Noah did not know the timing when the flood was coming UNTIL the day that Noah was told to enter the ark.



Mark 13:33-37: “Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. "It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. "Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming-- in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning-- "lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. "And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!"



And Paul says the very same thing 1Thess. 5:5-6: “You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.”



Jesus when He was glorified knew all things as He did before He was incarnated and now enjoys this in the eternal body He is in. And that is why he said In Acts “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.”



Again, the way it is presented along with the rest of the Scripture, He was a servant and this is dealing with His position as a servant.

© 2009 Let Us Reason Ministries

Who is Jesus praying to in John 17 ?

I don't believe that Jesus is "God."

A person can be "one with God" without being God.

(As in "I and the father are one.")

It is really not necessary that you believe that Jesus is God.

But that He was sent by God.

He did not come here to prove he was God you simply must believe that he was sent.

He Humbled or emptied himself and took the form of a servant. He was not interested in proving himself as God.


Philippians 2:5-8

Let this mind be in you.
He points to Christ as the example of humility and consecration to the good of others.
Who, being in the form of God. He refers to the state of our Savior before he took human form. His form was divine. "He had a glory with the father before the world was." See Joh_1:1; 2Co_4:4; Heb_1:3, etc.

Thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
The Revision says, "Counted it not a prize." The meaning is not entirely clear, but probably is that "Having a form of glory like God, he did not count it a prize which must be clung to tenaciously, especially when he appeared upon the earth, that he should be equal with God, that is, appear in a divine form, but was willing to lay aside his glory and make himself a servant."

Emptied himself.
Of the divine form and glory, and took the form of a servant, of our own race, a race whose duty it is to serve God. The divine glory was exchanged for human lowliness.

He humbled himself.
Note the infinite condescension:
(1) The form of God and sharing the divine glory.
(2) He divests himself of this.
(3) Nor does he then take the divine form, or even the form of an angel, but of lowly, sinful man.
(4) But this is not all. He not only takes the form of man, but the mortality of the flesh, and dies.
(5) Nay, more; he dies the most shameful and painful of all deaths, even the death of the cross.


...Paying the penalty for OUR sin.

He is also the WORD of God who dwelt among us.

And yet dwells among us, whosoever will receive Him.

Maybe. But maybe a lot of people were sent by God. Maybe none were. Maybe all of us were.

A lot of stories exist about gods and angels being "sent." There is no way you can be sure that any of that is true.

Maybe angels are simply ancient extraterrestrials. Maybe the devil was a rogue who didn't like the Galactic government and rebelled against it.

Maybe humans just thought these beings were gods. Maybe they were not gods at all.

There is no way to know what is really true.

The WORD was GOD!!!





John 1:
Deity of Jesus Christ

1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2, The same was in the beginning with God.

3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5, And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6, There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7, The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8, He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9, That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11, He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13, Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15, John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16, And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17, For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

19, And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20, And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21, And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22, Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23, He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24, And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25, And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26, John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27, He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28, These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29, The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30, This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31, And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32, And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33, And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34, And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35, Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

36, And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

37, And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38, Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39, He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

40, One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41, He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

42, And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

43, The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

44, Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

45, Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

46, And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

47, Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

48, Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

49, Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

50, Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51, And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Maybe humans just thought these beings were gods. Maybe they were not gods at all.

There is no way to know what is really true.

"Neither is there salvation in any other:

for there is none other name

under heaven given among men,

whereby we must be saved."

Acts 4:12



Salvation in none other. No other Savior but Jesus;

no salvation if his is rejected;

no other name or power to save from destruction,

unless he is accepted.

You simply trust. That burden is light.

Salvation a paid privilege.

I have faith in what is. I have faith in the law of vibration.

I don't need to understand it, or believe in any stories of any events of long ago.

I have faith in what is.

The truth is the truth.

It is what is.

The truth of what is does not need me to believe it to be what it is.

My faith is in the truth.

God IS.

But without faith it is impossible to please him:

for he that cometh to God must believe that HE IS,

and that HE IS a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:6,


God Bless you all!

I have faith in what is.

If that is what you call "God" then I have faith in that.

CeriseRose wrote:





JUST TO CLARIFY :

CeriseRose,I know you MEANT that statement above to MEAN that it

is not neccessary to have a FULL UNDERSTANDING YET ABOUT

JESUS ,IN ORDER to BECOME SAVED!!!!

In other words, you were NOT saying that it is not neccessary to

EVER believe AT ALL,that Jesus is God !!!


JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THIS ,IN CASE SOME MIGHT HAVE

MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU WERE ACTUALLY SAYING HERE!!!


CAUSE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS MOST DEFINITELY KNOW ,THAT JESUS IS GOD !!!

JESUS IS JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD !!!


Again,,,,I know what you meant ,Ceriserose...and that is, that some

may not quite understand the FULL Truth YET of WHO Jesus is AT THE

MOMENT OF THIER SALVATION ...AND THAT IS FINE......


HOWEVER.....

ONCE SAVED, THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL TEACH AND LEAD , AND FULLY

ILLUMINATE ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD'S WORD TO ALL BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS!!!


WE RECEIVE JESUS AS SAVIOUR..AND HE SHOWS US ALL OF WHO HE IS,

AS WE GROW IN OUR DAILY WALK WITH HIM AND HIS WORD.


AND THAT INCLUDES MOST DEFINITELY ,THAT THE HOLY SPRIT MAKES

IT VERY CLEAR TO US THAT JESUS IS GOD.....TO THE POINT THAT WE

KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW ....THAT JESUS IS GOD!!

JUST AS MUCH AS THE FATHER ANSD HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD!!!


AMEN!!!


ps.....had to clarify this, cause I did not want people thinking

You do not believe Jesus is God.

why do you fight so hard to prove to yourself who the Messiah is?

If you knew you would live it and not preach it.. Yahshua said believe my works.. If you have the will of Yahweh in you then anything you do will be his will ..No need to beat heads to make someone understand... Blessings..Miles

IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD ( MEANING EQUALLY GOD WITH THE

FATHER ), THEN WHAT HE DID ON THAT CROSS AMOUNTED TO NOTHING.

IF THAT WAS NOT GOD ON THAT CROSS, WE ARE STILL DEAD IN OUR SINS!!!


BUT THANK GOD ....IT WAS GOD ON THAT CROSS!!!

JESUS IS GOD!!!

ONLY GOD COULD DIE ON THAT CROSS FOR US... AND BEAR THE SINS OF

THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD.

NO MERE MORTAL BEING COULD EVER DO THIS !!!

ONLY GOD !!!



THANK GOD , IT WAS GOD ON THAT CROSS.

JESUS...GOD THE SON.

( AND NO.... IT WAS NOT GOD THE FATHER ON THE CROSS...BUT GOD

THE SON ON THAT CROSS.

IT WAS JESUS...GOD THE SON.....THE ONE THAT GOD THE FATHER SENT .)

AMEN!!!!!

so in this statement who is it talking about?

Matt 12:31-32

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV


is he speaking of the Father, the son or the Holy Spirit?

I don't know why you would believe such things. They don't make any sense really. I honestly find it hard to believe that you are so totally convinced of these things.

I think that you need to believe it and that if you did not have such a strong belief you would be lost. So for you, it is probably a good thing.

For others it just seems insane and totally illogical.

Do you believe God loves us unconditionally Cerese? If you do, than it would be impossible for said God to place any conditions on those that receive it. That if they don't believe just right, they will be cast out. The two things do not go together at all.

I think for many the idea that what they've been taught may in fact be a lie, is scary to them, so they cling to what they know instead. It is easier to do that than to have to question everything they've been told is true.