Topic: What are we Entitled to?
msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 08:16 AM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 12/26/11 08:29 AM
points taken from a much LONGER piece at Timwise.org,, he is often times very out there in his assessments, but this one (I thought) was on point,,,,

Everywhere you turn, conservatives are bemoaning the so-called “mentality of entitlement.”

To hear such folks tell it, the problem with America is that people think they’re owed something. Of course, income support programs, nutritional assistance, or housing subsidies have long been pilloried by the right for this reason — because they ostensibly encourage people to expect someone else (in this case, the government, via the American taxpayer) to support them.


When someone with money insists that they “earned everything they have,” and therefore, they resent their tax burden, or various government regulations that might affect their business in some way, what is that, if not evidence of an “entitlement mentality?” After all, they didn’t really earn what they have all on their own. .....

the wealth of individuals is only partly about their own hard work; more so, it is the result of the cumulative decisions made by lots of people.

The Gates family was comfortably upper-middle class, and were able to afford to send their son to the prestigious Lakeside School, in Seattle where the resources existed to purchase, for the students, an early computer system.

It was this early introduction to computing (which Gates would not have obtained at any Seattle public school, or even many other private ones), that launched him on his career path. A combination of class advantage, timing, and frankly, luck combined to create the Bill Gates we know today. This is not to dispute his own hard work and ability; it is simply to say that circumstances also play a huge role in where people end up.

In short, to suggest that where people end up is earned — either high status because of hard work and ability, or low status because of its opposite — is to ignore the truth about the structural advantages and/or disadvantages to which persons are subjected in this society, due either to class status, racial identity, or a combination of the two.



...its a very long piece,

http://www.timwise.org/2011/09/getting-what-we-deserve-wealth-race-and-entitlement-in-america/#more-868

but this was the portion that I thought was most far reaching in its applications


'Merit' and 'Hard work' are only small pieces of a very big puzzle , be grateful for blessings however 'hard' you think you worked for them,,,,


galendgirl's photo
Mon 12/26/11 08:43 AM

points taken from a much LONGER piece at Timwise.org,, he is often times very out there in his assessments, but this one (I thought) was on point,,,,

Everywhere you turn, conservatives are bemoaning the so-called “mentality of entitlement.”

To hear such folks tell it, the problem with America is that people think they’re owed something. Of course, income support programs, nutritional assistance, or housing subsidies have long been pilloried by the right for this reason — because they ostensibly encourage people to expect someone else (in this case, the government, via the American taxpayer) to support them.


When someone with money insists that they “earned everything they have,” and therefore, they resent their tax burden, or various government regulations that might affect their business in some way, what is that, if not evidence of an “entitlement mentality?” After all, they didn’t really earn what they have all on their own. .....

the wealth of individuals is only partly about their own hard work; more so, it is the result of the cumulative decisions made by lots of people.

The Gates family was comfortably upper-middle class, and were able to afford to send their son to the prestigious Lakeside School, in Seattle where the resources existed to purchase, for the students, an early computer system.

It was this early introduction to computing (which Gates would not have obtained at any Seattle public school, or even many other private ones), that launched him on his career path. A combination of class advantage, timing, and frankly, luck combined to create the Bill Gates we know today. This is not to dispute his own hard work and ability; it is simply to say that circumstances also play a huge role in where people end up.

In short, to suggest that where people end up is earned — either high status because of hard work and ability, or low status because of its opposite — is to ignore the truth about the structural advantages and/or disadvantages to which persons are subjected in this society, due either to class status, racial identity, or a combination of the two.

...its a very long piece, but this was the portion that I thought was most far reaching in its applications

'Merit' and 'Hard work' are only small pieces of a very big puzzle , be grateful for blessings however 'hard' you think you worked for them,,,,



No one is "entitled" to anything.

I do not have status or wealth by most people's standards but have done well by my own measure through a lot of hard work and yes, some luck of circumstances. (Believe me when I say that I did not have a white picket fence life.) But those circumstances would not have provided ANYTHING if I'd not had the gumption to find them, put myself into them and run with what I was offered. To some degree you make your own luck.

That said, no one else is "entitled" to anything I have earned, built or succeeded in, even through some lucky circumstances. Someone who EXPECTS that I give is the person I am the least motivated to give to...and I actually give quite a lot - sometimes that's money but more often it's other things like time or talent.I give where I am inclined and inspired. Conservative? Yeah...pretty much so. Selfish? Not really.

The article paints a broad stroke over the word "conservative" and I think it's another example of finger-pointing that is inappropriate to anyone who genuinely feels the spirit of helping out for the sake of doing the right thing. Conservatives and Liberals alike fall on both sides of the giving/selfish fence.

Robin Hood mentality (taking care of the poor) is fine.
Robin Hood style legislation is wrong.

msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 08:51 AM


points taken from a much LONGER piece at Timwise.org,, he is often times very out there in his assessments, but this one (I thought) was on point,,,,

Everywhere you turn, conservatives are bemoaning the so-called “mentality of entitlement.”

To hear such folks tell it, the problem with America is that people think they’re owed something. Of course, income support programs, nutritional assistance, or housing subsidies have long been pilloried by the right for this reason — because they ostensibly encourage people to expect someone else (in this case, the government, via the American taxpayer) to support them.


When someone with money insists that they “earned everything they have,” and therefore, they resent their tax burden, or various government regulations that might affect their business in some way, what is that, if not evidence of an “entitlement mentality?” After all, they didn’t really earn what they have all on their own. .....

the wealth of individuals is only partly about their own hard work; more so, it is the result of the cumulative decisions made by lots of people.

The Gates family was comfortably upper-middle class, and were able to afford to send their son to the prestigious Lakeside School, in Seattle where the resources existed to purchase, for the students, an early computer system.

It was this early introduction to computing (which Gates would not have obtained at any Seattle public school, or even many other private ones), that launched him on his career path. A combination of class advantage, timing, and frankly, luck combined to create the Bill Gates we know today. This is not to dispute his own hard work and ability; it is simply to say that circumstances also play a huge role in where people end up.

In short, to suggest that where people end up is earned — either high status because of hard work and ability, or low status because of its opposite — is to ignore the truth about the structural advantages and/or disadvantages to which persons are subjected in this society, due either to class status, racial identity, or a combination of the two.

...its a very long piece, but this was the portion that I thought was most far reaching in its applications

'Merit' and 'Hard work' are only small pieces of a very big puzzle , be grateful for blessings however 'hard' you think you worked for them,,,,



No one is "entitled" to anything.

I do not have status or wealth by most people's standards but have done well by my own measure through a lot of hard work and yes, some luck of circumstances. (Believe me when I say that I did not have a white picket fence life.) But those circumstances would not have provided ANYTHING if I'd not had the gumption to find them, put myself into them and run with what I was offered. To some degree you make your own luck.

That said, no one else is "entitled" to anything I have earned, built or succeeded in, even through some lucky circumstances. Someone who EXPECTS that I give is the person I am the least motivated to give to...and I actually give quite a lot - sometimes that's money but more often it's other things like time or talent.I give where I am inclined and inspired. Conservative? Yeah...pretty much so. Selfish? Not really.

The article paints a broad stroke over the word "conservative" and I think it's another example of finger-pointing that is inappropriate to anyone who genuinely feels the spirit of helping out for the sake of doing the right thing. Conservatives and Liberals alike fall on both sides of the giving/selfish fence.

Robin Hood mentality (taking care of the poor) is fine.
Robin Hood style legislation is wrong.




I purposely didnt copy the labels as Im not prone to agree with them, but I do think many people take 'too much credit' for their own good fortune while looking down on others misfortunes,,,

motowndowntown's photo
Mon 12/26/11 09:01 AM
Helping out the weakest members of the herd make the herd stronger in the long run. Those with the "me first and to hell with the rest"
type of mentality are the ones who bring ruin to a society.

Conrad_73's photo
Mon 12/26/11 09:02 AM
The Right To Life,Liberty,And The Pursuit Of Happiness!(Bill Of Rights)
All the rest are privileges!

msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 09:14 AM

Helping out the weakest members of the herd make the herd stronger in the long run. Those with the "me first and to hell with the rest"
type of mentality are the ones who bring ruin to a society.


:banana: :banana: drinker

PacificStar48's photo
Mon 12/26/11 10:41 AM

Helping out the weakest members of the herd make the herd stronger in the long run. Those with the "me first and to hell with the rest"
type of mentality are the ones who bring ruin to a society.


I really buy into this mentality. Probably because I think had no one given me the few hand ups that went along with some of my usual blessings birthrights as an American (the great equalizer; a free public education and the right/expectation that Americans still have for most people to work for what they get) I doubt I would have faired as well as I have.

Do I agree with all entitlemnet programs? No some of them really are degradeing and cost way more than they are worth but I take a lot of pride in knowing we have probably the most generous social structure in the world to help those who want to help themseoves and rebuild their lives after the usual clamities that come along in life.

I also take great pride in Americans like Bill Gates that do reinvest their great fortunes in provideing for a better America and even a better world. If that makes me guilty of "brown noseing " the lucky or affluent I just take it as also rewarding morality where ever I find it.

Part of the reason we see so little true talent getting into the leadership in this country is that we seem to want to demonize success like it is a bad thing. Yea a few immoral good balls do make real arses out of us but then if you throw the baby out with the bath water you miss a lot of redemption.

msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 10:43 AM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 12/26/11 10:44 AM
I dont believe in demonizing 'success' (anymore than I believe in putting it on the pedestal above struggle)

I just believe in taking a more honest look at how it happens and how we can give everyone a more equal opportunity to have it,,,,



even public education is not an equalizer because public education is not equally distributed, resources are not equally available, and opportunities within the public education are also not equally afforded to all...


willing2's photo
Mon 12/26/11 03:27 PM

Helping out the weakest members of the herd make the herd stronger in the long run. Those with the "me first and to hell with the rest"
type of mentality are the ones who bring ruin to a society.

Actually, the reverse is true in nature. I believe it would apply to the human animal as well.
The weaker, slower, and/or injured get eaten.
For stronger genes, the strongest animal mates with the female.
For sure, when some herd animals are under attack, they take a defensive mode to protect not only the youngsters, they are also being protected.
When the herd is in the flight mode, it's everyone for himself.

We humans want everyone to live, prosper and multiply. That's why the world is so over populated and we are upsetting the balance of nature.

Then again, we, the strong will wipe out the wild things that are weaker. Even if, those wild things help sustain the balance.

msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 03:29 PM
so glad we are not merely animals

as even amongst animals, whats 'natural' varies from species to species

willing2's photo
Mon 12/26/11 03:37 PM

so glad we are not merely animals

as even amongst animals, whats 'natural' varies from species to species

Someone mentioned herd.

This earth cannot sustain us all.

The more crowded, helpless, hopeless, jobless, is leading to more of the gang attitude. I see the gangs as acting in a more natural, animalistic manner.
The strong lead, the weak follow. They are quick with swift, violent justice.
They prey on the weaker outsider.
I believe, a true, hardened, street thug, would hold the weaker up in front of him as a shield.

That, is near animal as human can get, IMO. Rabid, yes. Still animal.

msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 03:40 PM
I just hope that not many humans are setting their bar at 'animal'.

willing2's photo
Mon 12/26/11 04:05 PM

I just hope that not many humans are setting their bar at 'animal'.

Gotta' see what happens when all those extensions run out and more folks get hungrier.

Desperate folks will do desperate things.

msharmony's photo
Mon 12/26/11 04:06 PM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 12/26/11 04:07 PM


I just hope that not many humans are setting their bar at 'animal'.

Gotta' see what happens when all those extensions run out and more folks get hungrier.

Desperate folks will do desperate things.



this is true,, emphasis on 'hope'

I hope we will remain civilized enough not to let many go hungry,,,,,

motowndowntown's photo
Mon 12/26/11 04:10 PM


Helping out the weakest members of the herd make the herd stronger in the long run. Those with the "me first and to hell with the rest"
type of mentality are the ones who bring ruin to a society.

Actually, the reverse is true in nature. I believe it would apply to the human animal as well.
The weaker, slower, and/or injured get eaten.
For stronger genes, the strongest animal mates with the female.
For sure, when some herd animals are under attack, they take a defensive mode to protect not only the youngsters, they are also being protected.
When the herd is in the flight mode, it's everyone for himself.

We humans want everyone to live, prosper and multiply. That's why the world is so over populated and we are upsetting the balance of nature.

Then again, we, the strong will wipe out the wild things that are weaker. Even if, those wild things help sustain the balance.


Yes that is true in the animal world; Alphas tend to to mate with
Alphas, and somewhat true in the human world.

But the highest call of humanity is to sacrifice your life for that
of another. Think of a combat situation where a unharmed soldier
will risk his life to save a wounded one.
That is humanity and that is what separates us from animals.

willing2's photo
Mon 12/26/11 04:33 PM
In a normal, sane world where I am pretty certain I will have another meal when I want it, there can be peace and harmony.

If, we are starving, there is only one rat left and I can fight and win it, you will starve or die trying to take it from me.

motowndowntown's photo
Mon 12/26/11 04:37 PM
Or you could share it.

A rat ain't much of a meal anyway.

willing2's photo
Mon 12/26/11 04:39 PM

Or you could share it.

A rat ain't much of a meal anyway.
drinker laugh shades

no photo
Mon 12/26/11 06:59 PM
I try to stay is good shape just in case times get so hard we have to fight dogs for food.

tongue2