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Topic: Who represents or even understands the middle class?
msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Sun 10/09/11 05:14 PM
Herman Cain? Republican presidential contender Herman Cain amplified his criticism Sunday of the growing Occupy Wall Street movement, calling the protesters “jealous’ Americans who "play the victim card” and want to “take somebody else’s” Cadillac. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-cain-occupy-wall-street-20111009,0,972806.story Mitt Romney? I'm happy to learn that after I speak you're going to hear from Ann Coulter. That's a good thing. I think it's important to get the views of moderates." --right before Coulter called John Edwards a "faggot" Gingrich? 4) “What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]? That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior.” [To the National Review, September 2010] ...I dont know, IF they seemed more knowledgable about politics I would put perry or bachman in the lead, but their 'rantings' are too religious for that to happen

InvictusV Joined Sun 11/23/08 Posts: 5282	Mon 10/10/11 04:03 AM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question.

jrbogie Joined Sat 03/01/08 Posts: 2490	Mon 10/10/11 04:03 AM
hell, mh, i don't even understand what the middle class actually is. i can ask different people of various cultures in several areas of the country and get numerous completely different answers.

smart2009 Joined Tue 02/17/09 Posts: 1474	Mon 10/10/11 06:48 AM
Yet, there seem to be so many people who earn $80K and $90K, and they believe they are barely middle class! What happened to this country? There is no real middle class. In fact, what used to be the middle class is now 3 separate classes, lower middle, middle (true) middle, and upper middle; and let me tell you, there is a vast difference in quality of life among the three. That's one reason it really aggravates me to hear politicians talk about middle class folks when they are talking about people whose income in 5 times higher . We live in totally different worlds.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 07:15 AM Edited by msharmony on Mon 10/10/11 07:18 AM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 07:22 AM
hell, mh, i don't even understand what the middle class actually is. i can ask different people of various cultures in several areas of the country and get numerous completely different answers. thats a good question. The context I use it in is comparative. IT is that place in between being IMPOVERISHED and being upper class(Which to me is being in financial or political power to control the income of OTHERS, while living comfortably oneself) middle class, for me, are those who struggle but are not technically at or under a 'poverty' line; those who work everyday but have their income and stability sternly dictated and controlled by a 'superior' but who are not a 'superior' over anyone elses income and stability themself,,, ,, thats the context I use when I use the term 'middle class'

Conrad_73 Joined Sat 09/29/07 Posts: 22488	Mon 10/10/11 07:32 AM
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/middle_class.html A nation’s productive—and moral, and intellectual—top is the middle class. It is a broad reservoir of energy, it is a country’s motor and lifeblood, which feeds the rest. The common denominator of its members, on their various levels of ability, is: independence. The upper classes are merely a nation’s past; the middle class is its future. Ayn Rand The middle class is the heart, the lifeblood, the energy source of a free, industrial economy, i.e., of capitalism; it did not and cannot exist under any other system; it is the product of upward mobility, incompatible with frozen social castes. Do not ask, therefore, for whom the bell of inflation is tolling; it tolls for you. It is not at the destruction of a handful of the rich that inflation is aimed (the rich are mostly in the vanguard of the destroyers), but at the middle class. Ayn Rand And now they are destroying America's and the World's Future!

smart2009 Joined Tue 02/17/09 Posts: 1474	Mon 10/10/11 07:46 AM
Paul Ryan, Herman Cain Push For Tax Increases On Middle Class By Ryan Grim \| HuffPost \| 9/18/11 10:47 AM ET WASHINGTON – “Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) said on Sunday that House Republicans would oppose President Barack Obama's payroll tax cuts for both employers and employees, arguing that the policy had already failed to provide a sufficient boost to the economy. "It hasn't worked," Ryan said, suggesting the current temporary tax cut should be allowed to expire, which will amount to a 50 percent tax hike on workers making less than $106,000 per year. He also said that he opposes the president's plan to require millionaires to pay the same tax rate as the middle class. "Class warfare might make for good politics, but it makes for rotten economics," he said. As chairman of the House Budget Committee and the author of a long-term plan that radically alters Medicare and slashes tax rates for the wealthy as well as social spending, Ryan serves as something of an economic spokesman for House Republicans. GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain, who followed Ryan on "Fox News Sunday," seconded his opposition to the tax on millionaires as well as the payroll tax cut extensions. "It's too little, too late," said Cain.

jrbogie Joined Sat 03/01/08 Posts: 2490	Mon 10/10/11 09:27 AM
hell, mh, i don't even understand what the middle class actually is. i can ask different people of various cultures in several areas of the country and get numerous completely different answers. thats a good question. The context I use it in is comparative. IT is that place in between being IMPOVERISHED and being upper class(Which to me is being in financial or political power to control the income of OTHERS, while living comfortably oneself) middle class, for me, are those who struggle but are not technically at or under a 'poverty' line; those who work everyday but have their income and stability sternly dictated and controlled by a 'superior' but who are not a 'superior' over anyone elses income and stability themself,,, ,, thats the context I use when I use the term 'middle class' doesn't help my understanding, mh. where does impoverished end and middle class begin? where does upperclass begin? what is comfortable. read an article just this morning about a guy who lives quite comfortably on less then 20k a year. he's an author with no supervisors and is in complete control over his income yet i'll bet i can find someone who'll say the poverty level begins well above twenty large a year. on the other side of the coin i know people who control the incomes of hundreds, sometimes thousands of employees who in these economic times must rely on personal bankruptcy protection if they are to emerge from this financial crisis with any semblence of the wealth they enjoyed even five years ago. then there is the fact that i just don't put people in classes nor do i pay attention to people who do so what do i know, huh?

Chazster Joined Tue 08/28/07 Posts: 6206	Mon 10/10/11 10:27 AM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too Yea Cain may be a company man, but not in how you think. Not giving money to companies "Like Obama gave 500 million away to a now bankrupt one" but as in the USA is his company and it is currently in Dire Straights and needs someone to save it. So what if he is against the mentality that the government or wealthy people "owe everyone else something". I don't feel anyone owes me anything. I like his tax ideas too. I read through his political views this weekend and the ones I read I was all in agreement on. The way I see it. Obama wants to give people fish... lots of fish... for free. Cain wants to hand people a rod and a reel and teach them to fish.

InvictusV Joined Sun 11/23/08 Posts: 5282	Mon 10/10/11 11:53 AM Edited by InvictusV on Mon 10/10/11 11:54 AM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too That is pretty interesting. A man that grew up below middle class went to a traditionally black college and got a degree in mathematics doesn't understand the middle class because he went on to be a successful CEO? Obama is a man of the people.. growing up in Indonesia and Hawaii then going to Harvard and graduating with a degree in constitutional law, but he understands the middle class? You are correct. There is a difference. Obama may understand the middle class. Cain knows what it is like growing up below middle class in Atlanta during the 50s and 60s. I will take a man that lived the life over a guy that pretends he has some understanding of the life and never lived it.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 12:12 PM Edited by msharmony on Mon 10/10/11 12:16 PM
hell, mh, i don't even understand what the middle class actually is. i can ask different people of various cultures in several areas of the country and get numerous completely different answers. thats a good question. The context I use it in is comparative. IT is that place in between being IMPOVERISHED and being upper class(Which to me is being in financial or political power to control the income of OTHERS, while living comfortably oneself) middle class, for me, are those who struggle but are not technically at or under a 'poverty' line; those who work everyday but have their income and stability sternly dictated and controlled by a 'superior' but who are not a 'superior' over anyone elses income and stability themself,,, ,, thats the context I use when I use the term 'middle class' doesn't help my understanding, mh. where does impoverished end and middle class begin? where does upperclass begin? what is comfortable. read an article just this morning about a guy who lives quite comfortably on less then 20k a year. he's an author with no supervisors and is in complete control over his income yet i'll bet i can find someone who'll say the poverty level begins well above twenty large a year. on the other side of the coin i know people who control the incomes of hundreds, sometimes thousands of employees who in these economic times must rely on personal bankruptcy protection if they are to emerge from this financial crisis with any semblence of the wealth they enjoyed even five years ago. then there is the fact that i just don't put people in classes nor do i pay attention to people who do so what do i know, huh? lol, ur so funny jr. I dont put people in classes per se, but I Do use the terminology to group the different SITUATIONs people are finding themself in financially impoverished= at or below the federal poverty line upper class= being in financial or political power to control the income of OTHERS, while living comfortably oneself comfortable living= more than 1.5 times the MEDIAN for the country middle class= makes too much to be in impoverished class, but is still under 1.5 times the median income and/or has political or social power over the livelihoods of others I guess if you arent one to aknowledge class, the conversation is pretty pointless for ya,,,

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 12:23 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too Yea Cain may be a company man, but not in how you think. Not giving money to companies "Like Obama gave 500 million away to a now bankrupt one" but as in the USA is his company and it is currently in Dire Straights and needs someone to save it. So what if he is against the mentality that the government or wealthy people "owe everyone else something". I don't feel anyone owes me anything. I like his tax ideas too. I read through his political views this weekend and the ones I read I was all in agreement on. The way I see it. Obama wants to give people fish... lots of fish... for free. Cain wants to hand people a rod and a reel and teach them to fish. I dont know what free fish OBama has given away, so I dont understand the analogy. but I feel they are both educated and hard working men. I just see Obama as being more realistic about STRUGGLE and the lower to middle classes because of his CHOICE to remain among them the majority of his working life(until politics). Cain has chosen to remain in upper management and so I feel his loyalties would be with them. just my perception

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 12:27 PM Edited by msharmony on Mon 10/10/11 12:28 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too That is pretty interesting. A man that grew up below middle class went to a traditionally black college and got a degree in mathematics doesn't understand the middle class because he went on to be a successful CEO? Obama is a man of the people.. growing up in Indonesia and Hawaii then going to Harvard and graduating with a degree in constitutional law, but he understands the middle class? You are correct. There is a difference. Obama may understand the middle class. Cain knows what it is like growing up below middle class in Atlanta during the 50s and 60s. I will take a man that lived the life over a guy that pretends he has some understanding of the life and never lived it. I would too if this were the fifties and sixties, but for me the problem is that we have had six decades pass since then and people can sometimes forget once they 'arrive'. I sense this about Cain. Just my perception. He ARRIVED four decades ago and hasnt looked back or considered any situation but his own (lucrative) one ever since. I will take the guy who when given the chance to be a fat cat, muddled in the pits instead. Over the guy that took the fight others made for him and then ran with it without ever considering fighting for anyone else and then convincing himself nooone needed fighting for.

Chazster Joined Tue 08/28/07 Posts: 6206	Mon 10/10/11 12:51 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too Yea Cain may be a company man, but not in how you think. Not giving money to companies "Like Obama gave 500 million away to a now bankrupt one" but as in the USA is his company and it is currently in Dire Straights and needs someone to save it. So what if he is against the mentality that the government or wealthy people "owe everyone else something". I don't feel anyone owes me anything. I like his tax ideas too. I read through his political views this weekend and the ones I read I was all in agreement on. The way I see it. Obama wants to give people fish... lots of fish... for free. Cain wants to hand people a rod and a reel and teach them to fish. I dont know what free fish OBama has given away, so I dont understand the analogy. but I feel they are both educated and hard working men. I just see Obama as being more realistic about STRUGGLE and the lower to middle classes because of his CHOICE to remain among them the majority of his working life(until politics). Cain has chosen to remain in upper management and so I feel his loyalties would be with them. just my perception Shouldn't he be thought of as a role model as he started in the working class and made it into the management class? The president is supposed to run the country. Wouldn't you want someone with experience in management? The fish is a metaphor for government hand outs in all sense of things. Cain is a self made man. He is a prime example of how people can jump to other levels in society with dedication and some work ethic. You are making a poor assumption. Just because someone works in management they are loyal to all companies? There are lots of managers whose loyalties are with the people they manage. Obama is closer why? Because he was a lawyer? I am pretty sure people who lived the life style are closer and no more about it than a lawyer.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 01:03 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too Yea Cain may be a company man, but not in how you think. Not giving money to companies "Like Obama gave 500 million away to a now bankrupt one" but as in the USA is his company and it is currently in Dire Straights and needs someone to save it. So what if he is against the mentality that the government or wealthy people "owe everyone else something". I don't feel anyone owes me anything. I like his tax ideas too. I read through his political views this weekend and the ones I read I was all in agreement on. The way I see it. Obama wants to give people fish... lots of fish... for free. Cain wants to hand people a rod and a reel and teach them to fish. I dont know what free fish OBama has given away, so I dont understand the analogy. but I feel they are both educated and hard working men. I just see Obama as being more realistic about STRUGGLE and the lower to middle classes because of his CHOICE to remain among them the majority of his working life(until politics). Cain has chosen to remain in upper management and so I feel his loyalties would be with them. just my perception Shouldn't he be thought of as a role model as he started in the working class and made it into the management class? The president is supposed to run the country. Wouldn't you want someone with experience in management? The fish is a metaphor for government hand outs in all sense of things. Cain is a self made man. He is a prime example of how people can jump to other levels in society with dedication and some work ethic. You are making a poor assumption. Just because someone works in management they are loyal to all companies? There are lots of managers whose loyalties are with the people they manage. Obama is closer why? Because he was a lawyer? I am pretty sure people who lived the life style are closer and no more about it than a lawyer. He certainly can be seen as a role model for starting out working class (although it was pretty high status and military, opening up a pretty quick path for him). But many people have become management material and it doesnt make them necessarily the best people to understand and represent the COLLECTIVE. I dont much care what people do in their childhod because that is largely the product of their PARENTS hard work and choices , moreso than their own. BUt speaking in their adult lives, their choices and their perceptions say alot. Obama worked hard to go to law school (scholarships, not two hard working parents salaries) and even then he remained 'in the trenches' of struggling communities and middle to lower class projects. He had the option to hobnob with lawyers, which he did by profession but he still KEPT the foot with the 'regular' people by choice. He speaks(and I believe him) about the reality of how people struggle, and how there are still obstacles to be overcome systematically. Cain, on the other hand, strikes me as the young man who was able to benefit from civil rights activitsts efforts to enforce giving opportunity to minorities. HE got in with the right interest in the military world. Those three things (civil rights, his good choice of major , and his military reference/affiliation) put him on a pretty fast track to not have to 'struggle' the majority of the rest of his life. I think he is a bit delusional to have grown up seeing his parents struggle and his community in the shape it was in and then grow up to make the types of statements he does about someone wanting someone elses 'cadillac', or people being too brainwashed to vote conservative , or not trusting muslims, or any of the other terribly bigoted views he expresses that he should have learned to abhor having been in a community that was itself the subject of such harsh views itself. THat he instead grew up to apparently become a man to choose those philosophies and turn his back on the realities of those who struggle, is concern for me. It makes me feel his loyalty is to those he perceives as having rewarded him for being so hard working and exceptional, compared to all those who are struggling and must therefore not work hard at all.

Chazster Joined Tue 08/28/07 Posts: 6206	Mon 10/10/11 03:18 PM Edited by Chazster on Mon 10/10/11 03:20 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too Yea Cain may be a company man, but not in how you think. Not giving money to companies "Like Obama gave 500 million away to a now bankrupt one" but as in the USA is his company and it is currently in Dire Straights and needs someone to save it. So what if he is against the mentality that the government or wealthy people "owe everyone else something". I don't feel anyone owes me anything. I like his tax ideas too. I read through his political views this weekend and the ones I read I was all in agreement on. The way I see it. Obama wants to give people fish... lots of fish... for free. Cain wants to hand people a rod and a reel and teach them to fish. I dont know what free fish OBama has given away, so I dont understand the analogy. but I feel they are both educated and hard working men. I just see Obama as being more realistic about STRUGGLE and the lower to middle classes because of his CHOICE to remain among them the majority of his working life(until politics). Cain has chosen to remain in upper management and so I feel his loyalties would be with them. just my perception Shouldn't he be thought of as a role model as he started in the working class and made it into the management class? The president is supposed to run the country. Wouldn't you want someone with experience in management? The fish is a metaphor for government hand outs in all sense of things. Cain is a self made man. He is a prime example of how people can jump to other levels in society with dedication and some work ethic. You are making a poor assumption. Just because someone works in management they are loyal to all companies? There are lots of managers whose loyalties are with the people they manage. Obama is closer why? Because he was a lawyer? I am pretty sure people who lived the life style are closer and no more about it than a lawyer. He certainly can be seen as a role model for starting out working class (although it was pretty high status and military, opening up a pretty quick path for him). But many people have become management material and it doesnt make them necessarily the best people to understand and represent the COLLECTIVE. I dont much care what people do in their childhod because that is largely the product of their PARENTS hard work and choices , moreso than their own. BUt speaking in their adult lives, their choices and their perceptions say alot. Obama worked hard to go to law school (scholarships, not two hard working parents salaries) and even then he remained 'in the trenches' of struggling communities and middle to lower class projects. He had the option to hobnob with lawyers, which he did by profession but he still KEPT the foot with the 'regular' people by choice. He speaks(and I believe him) about the reality of how people struggle, and how there are still obstacles to be overcome systematically. Cain, on the other hand, strikes me as the young man who was able to benefit from civil rights activitsts efforts to enforce giving opportunity to minorities. HE got in with the right interest in the military world. Those three things (civil rights, his good choice of major , and his military reference/affiliation) put him on a pretty fast track to not have to 'struggle' the majority of the rest of his life. I think he is a bit delusional to have grown up seeing his parents struggle and his community in the shape it was in and then grow up to make the types of statements he does about someone wanting someone elses 'cadillac', or people being too brainwashed to vote conservative , or not trusting muslims, or any of the other terribly bigoted views he expresses that he should have learned to abhor having been in a community that was itself the subject of such harsh views itself. THat he instead grew up to apparently become a man to choose those philosophies and turn his back on the realities of those who struggle, is concern for me. It makes me feel his loyalty is to those he perceives as having rewarded him for being so hard working and exceptional, compared to all those who are struggling and must therefore not work hard at all. So you are going to pretend those people don't exist? We all know that is a lie. Now are all people in those positions like that? No. But I have seen first hand the attitude that people think others "owe" them something. I have even seen it in these forums to a lesser extent. I also wouldn't consider the people who struggle "the middle class". In my mind if you are living pay check to pay check and struggling you are not middle class. If you are then you making poor purchasing decisions. (this excludes people who lost jobs due to recession, I am talking the other 91%) "The middle class is any class of people in the middle of a societal hierarchy. In Weberian socio-economic terms, the middle class is the broad group of people in contemporary society who fall socio-economicaly between the working class and upper class." Many working class people try to claim themselves as "middle class"

InvictusV Joined Sun 11/23/08 Posts: 5282	Mon 10/10/11 04:09 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too That is pretty interesting. A man that grew up below middle class went to a traditionally black college and got a degree in mathematics doesn't understand the middle class because he went on to be a successful CEO? Obama is a man of the people.. growing up in Indonesia and Hawaii then going to Harvard and graduating with a degree in constitutional law, but he understands the middle class? You are correct. There is a difference. Obama may understand the middle class. Cain knows what it is like growing up below middle class in Atlanta during the 50s and 60s. I will take a man that lived the life over a guy that pretends he has some understanding of the life and never lived it. I would too if this were the fifties and sixties, but for me the problem is that we have had six decades pass since then and people can sometimes forget once they 'arrive'. I sense this about Cain. Just my perception. He ARRIVED four decades ago and hasnt looked back or considered any situation but his own (lucrative) one ever since. I will take the guy who when given the chance to be a fat cat, muddled in the pits instead. Over the guy that took the fight others made for him and then ran with it without ever considering fighting for anyone else and then convincing himself nooone needed fighting for. I think this boils down to party affiliation. I am willing to bet that if Cain was a democrat and Obama a republican your perception would be the inverse of what it is now.

MzMariah Joined Wed 09/21/11 Posts: 90	Mon 10/10/11 04:44 PM
goodness I wish there was a "like" button here :D you guys are rocking this convo out!!! ;)

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 10/10/11 07:10 PM
Herman Cain grew up in Atlanta, Georgia with loving parents and little else. His father worked three jobs—as a janitor, a barber and a chauffeur—and his mother was a domestic worker. Even though these jobs required hard work and little glamour, his parents knew this life was better than the dirt farms upon which they grew up. They also knew that this hard work was the key to achieving their American Dreams. Herman’s parents had two dreams. First, they wanted to own their own house. Secondly, they wanted both of their children to graduate from college. During the segregation era in the Deep South, these aspirations might have seemed lofty, but they knew that if they kept their faith in God, faith in themselves and faith in the greatest country on the Earth, they could achieve. The first dream was realized in a modest brick house on Albert Street in Atlanta, Georgia. After years of saving from his many jobs, Herman’s father surprised the whole family, even his wife, by purchasing a home for their family. The second dream was realized when Herman graduated from Morehouse College with a degree in mathematics in 1967. http://www.hermancain.com/about Yeah what does he know about the middle class? As if Mr Obama, the guy who lived in Indonesia and Hawaii and went to an Ivy League school has alot of creditability when it comes to your question. Im not really talking 1967..In kind of talking more RECENT, like the middle class of my own lifetime Cains choice in mathematics and computer science entering the navy at the height of civil rights and affirmative action was great planning and timing for him,, I can give him that but in the 40 years since,,,I dont see the connection IM sure his PARENTS hard work putting him through college allong with the computer science degree and naval history didnt hurt in being employed by COCA COLA ( still a stable job) or PILLSBURY(also going strong) he was DIR of ANALYSIS for pillsbury, six years out of college, an honorable accomplishment but probably not one that kept him in the 'middle class' (and probably where he developed that insecurity about someone wanting his 'cadillac'), sometimes those who grow up poor can be the WORST once they start making some money,,, then manager of 400 burger kings(also not a middle class position) CEO of Godfathers pizza and then NAtional Restaurant association ,,these things make him more an upper management person with upper management interests in my eyes,, than someone for the middle class OBama, on the other hand, does not have that upper management BOND/HISTORY on any level,,,,and of course he was only a young teen by the time Cain was already starting his upper management track in life,,,but His life, in my opinion, has been more SERVICE (middle class) oriented by choice his college, as far as I have read, was a result of his OWN hard work(scholarships) up until his political career started in 1996(at the age of thirty five), I see him as making choices to work 'on the ground' with people who struggled, which is closer to a middle clsas life,, in my opinion, than one which is spent in UPPER MANAGEMENT,,, OBama shows a history, in my opinion, of caring about the well being of OTHER PEOPLE, as opposed to the bottom line of companies,,, ID consider Cain a COMPANY man, and OBama a people man but thats just my perception, and IM sure others think Cain relates to middle class because he has worked , and thats their perogative too Yea Cain may be a company man, but not in how you think. Not giving money to companies "Like Obama gave 500 million away to a now bankrupt one" but as in the USA is his company and it is currently in Dire Straights and needs someone to save it. So what if he is against the mentality that the government or wealthy people "owe everyone else something". I don't feel anyone owes me anything. I like his tax ideas too. I read through his political views this weekend and the ones I read I was all in agreement on. The way I see it. Obama wants to give people fish... lots of fish... for free. Cain wants to hand people a rod and a reel and teach them to fish. I dont know what free fish OBama has given away, so I dont understand the analogy. but I feel they are both educated and hard working men. I just see Obama as being more realistic about STRUGGLE and the lower to middle classes because of his CHOICE to remain among them the majority of his working life(until politics). Cain has chosen to remain in upper management and so I feel his loyalties would be with them. just my perception Shouldn't he be thought of as a role model as he started in the working class and made it into the management class? The president is supposed to run the country. Wouldn't you want someone with experience in management? The fish is a metaphor for government hand outs in all sense of things. Cain is a self made man. He is a prime example of how people can jump to other levels in society with dedication and some work ethic. You are making a poor assumption. Just because someone works in management they are loyal to all companies? There are lots of managers whose loyalties are with the people they manage. Obama is closer why? Because he was a lawyer? I am pretty sure people who lived the life style are closer and no more about it than a lawyer. He certainly can be seen as a role model for starting out working class (although it was pretty high status and military, opening up a pretty quick path for him). But many people have become management material and it doesnt make them necessarily the best people to understand and represent the COLLECTIVE. I dont much care what people do in their childhod because that is largely the product of their PARENTS hard work and choices , moreso than their own. BUt speaking in their adult lives, their choices and their perceptions say alot. Obama worked hard to go to law school (scholarships, not two hard working parents salaries) and even then he remained 'in the trenches' of struggling communities and middle to lower class projects. He had the option to hobnob with lawyers, which he did by profession but he still KEPT the foot with the 'regular' people by choice. He speaks(and I believe him) about the reality of how people struggle, and how there are still obstacles to be overcome systematically. Cain, on the other hand, strikes me as the young man who was able to benefit from civil rights activitsts efforts to enforce giving opportunity to minorities. HE got in with the right interest in the military world. Those three things (civil rights, his good choice of major , and his military reference/affiliation) put him on a pretty fast track to not have to 'struggle' the majority of the rest of his life. I think he is a bit delusional to have grown up seeing his parents struggle and his community in the shape it was in and then grow up to make the types of statements he does about someone wanting someone elses 'cadillac', or people being too brainwashed to vote conservative , or not trusting muslims, or any of the other terribly bigoted views he expresses that he should have learned to abhor having been in a community that was itself the subject of such harsh views itself. THat he instead grew up to apparently become a man to choose those philosophies and turn his back on the realities of those who struggle, is concern for me. It makes me feel his loyalty is to those he perceives as having rewarded him for being so hard working and exceptional, compared to all those who are struggling and must therefore not work hard at all. So you are going to pretend those people don't exist? We all know that is a lie. Now are all people in those positions like that? No. But I have seen first hand the attitude that people think others "owe" them something. I have even seen it in these forums to a lesser extent. I also wouldn't consider the people who struggle "the middle class". In my mind if you are living pay check to pay check and struggling you are not middle class. If you are then you making poor purchasing decisions. (this excludes people who lost jobs due to recession, I am talking the other 91%) "The middle class is any class of people in the middle of a societal hierarchy. In Weberian socio-economic terms, the middle class is the broad group of people in contemporary society who fall socio-economicaly between the working class and upper class." Many working class people try to claim themselves as "middle class" I dont pretend anyone doesnt exist. IM not sure where the inquiry stems from??? Just as people are quick to lay blame on people for their struggles, others tend to believe successful people are there of their own isolated efforts and work. I tend to believe that though both those EXTREMES do exist, there are many other EXTERNAL factors that are systematic which contribute to how many have to STRUGGLE and how many are 'successful'. I think Cain believes that those extremes are all there is and IGNORES the broad base that fits neither even exists.