Topic: Let's talk about the problem...
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Tue 07/19/11 08:21 PM

Their poverty level is somewhere between 11% and 18%


poverty level is not a measure of wealth disparity. You want to be looking at comparitive GINI. It's a sophisticated mathematical model that real economists use to measure wealth disparity.


As I pointed out, most of their immigrants are the rich or highly skilled. They are also home to many corporations, because of their low taxes and high economic freedom. Those will increase the GINI score. GINI shows nothing other than the number of rich vs poor in the country. Honduras and Hong Kong have very similar GINI coefficients, but Honduras only has a per capita GDP of $4,417, while Hong Kong has a per capita GDP of $31,590. This means that even though Hong Kong and Honduras share the same GINI coefficient, the poor in Hong Kong are almost certainly much better off than those in Honduras.

A report was just released today saying that the poor in the US have amenities and products that the middle class don't have in Europe. GINI is just a number, it doesn't describe the quality of life.

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Tue 07/19/11 09:00 PM
GINI shows nothing other than the number of rich vs poor in the country


That's not true. GINI doesn't care how many people there are in the population. It does not even concern itself with quality of life. It deals only with how total wealth is distributed across the population. You have strayed considerably from the originally point, which was that low taxes and weak regulation always leds to high wealth disparity.

the scale goes from 0 to 1. Economists consider anything above .4 to be bad. Hong Kong and Honduras are in the low .5s. United States is in the mid.4s. sweden is in the .2s.

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Tue 07/19/11 09:09 PM
Edited by Spidercmb on Tue 07/19/11 09:12 PM

GINI shows nothing other than the number of rich vs poor in the country


That's not true. GINI doesn't care how many people there are in the population. It does not even concern itself with quality of life. It deals only with how total wealth is distributed across the population. You have strayed considerably from the originally point, which was that low taxes and weak regulation always leds to high wealth disparity.

the scale goes from 0 to 1. Economists consider anything above .4 to be bad. Hong Kong and Honduras are in the low .5s. United States is in the mid.4s. sweden is in the .2s.


I didn't say that GINI is based on the number of people, it's based on the proportion of wealth from the rich to the poor.

I didn't say it concerned itself with the quality of life, I said it didn't! A GINI score doesn't mean the quality of life of the poverty stricken is bad compared to other countries. I'll place dollars to donuts that most of the poor in Hong Kong live better than the middle class in Honduras.

Sweden is a terrible example for you to use, because they are a very free country economically, more free than the USA. Their low income disparity is due to high taxation on citizens (not business), with families usually only taking home 40% of their paycheck. On top of that, there is a very high tax rate of 25% on food.

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Tue 07/19/11 09:21 PM
the rothchilds have more money than the rest of the world all put together.yet we never hear of them.where does all the money go that is collected as interest from the national debt?

Hmmm do I favor spoiled Americans leaching off the freedoms that others have fought and sacrificed for, or do I think that patriotic citizens should share in at least some service to their country? That's a tough one.

actually they are fighting to enslave themselves.and soon everybody will be forced to serve.fighting against people that want a free world.thats why you cant fight for freedom because you are really fighting for people that want to keep you under control.and if you dont like their system then you become the enemy and they will use people like you to fight you.

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Wed 07/20/11 08:54 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 07/20/11 09:17 AM
I am a libertarian. So my philosophical approach is one of extremely small government. That however is an idealistic pursuit, much like most governing concepts. This however does not mean that a small government cannot work, there are thousands of examples throughout history.

The problem is we are in an environment of competing agendas. Where the power has been placed in a small number of hands that do not want a small government.

Government cannot force business to pay there workers a fair wage when those companies can pick up and leave and still compete in the American market place. The only kind of government that can force what is wants is a totalitarian government, which none of us wants.

Much like the market place has to create a product that customers want, they cannot force people to buy it, the government needs to do the same.

They cannot force what they want and not end up as a totalitarian state. PLEASE REPEAT THIS, I find most people think the government has magic or something.

It is my humble opinion that the modern government is too large, waste is everywhere, corruption is rampant. Collusion between big business and big government is clearly occurring.

Being that government cant force what it wants and not lead to the kind of state we do not want, being that government wastes more than it creates, based on the level of corruption, I cannot see a way out of the problems we have by making more agencies to waste money on, more people with power to corrupt, and more lobbyists employed instead of people who actually produce something, a service, a good, a needed concept.

The government is a drag on society, it is literally a parasite.

Ron Paul: Mr. Speaker, the Congress is concerned about the debt, the people are concerned about the debt, the markets are concerned about the debt, the world is concerned about the debt and what we’re doing here today, because we live with a world fiat dollar standard and so the whole world is engulfed in this very serious problem. I do not understand, though, that if the debt is the problem – and I agree, the debt is the problem – that for us to come here and raise the debt by 2.4 trillion dollars is the solution. That just baffles me. I think it’s a distraction, because when a country gets indebted to the degree that we’re indebted, the country always defaults. This is historic, especially if the country is a significant country. On occasion, a small country will quit sending the checks and they’ll go bankrupt, we’re not going to do that, but we will default because the debt is unsustainable. This year it is said that we have a debt increase of 1.6 trillion dollars, but that’s not true. If you count what we borrowed from the pension funds, the Social Security and highway funds, it’s 2 trillion dollars. But if you include the increase in the entitlement obligation, it’s 5 trillion dollars. So this is a huge, huge problem.

But the argument here is, how do you default. And it is said that if we don’t raise the debt limit, we’re going to default and not send out the checks. I don’t believe that for a minute, somehow or another the checks are going to go out. But if you really wanted to live within the technicalities of law, there’s a very simple thing you could do. We owe the Federal Reserve 1.6 trillion dollars. Well, that’s not a real debt, they bought those treasury bills with money out of thin air. We could just write that off or quit paying the interest, tide ourselves over and get down to serious business to cut back and live within our means. And that would be a solution. But to increase the national debt will only encourage another type of default, and that’s what we’re going through. We’re engaged in the most difficult and a very bad way of defaulting; and that is through the destruction of the currency. Today we have an inflation rate of 9%, and that is defaulting. So if a government can default and print money, and if they can get a 50% inflation rate over a period of time, they’ve cut that debt in half. That is the goal, that is what’s happening, and that is very, very serious. Just in these last 3 years in dealing with this crisis, the dollar has been devalued 50% against gold, and gold, of course, is the best measurement of the value of a currency and it’s been that way for thousands of years and it cannot be denied because it’s economic law. So we are defaulting, and when the American people go out and start buying goods and services, like they are now, they’re recognizing it costs a lot of money. So right now, we’re in the early stages of rampant inflation, which means we’re going to be hit with higher prices and higher interest rates. That is going to be a tax. So I see the only solution, and that is to cut spending.

Now the reason we don’t cut spending is one side loves entitlement, and the other side loves war. And even this token attempt of a 100 billion dollars of cuts when we have this huge, huge deficit. But there’s no mention of cutting military spending. I don’t want to cut defense spending. This military spending doesn’t defend us, it makes things worse. Our problem in this country doesn’t come only from the Congress, it comes from the people. The people still have a strong appetite for big government programs. They’re not willing to cut, they think government can take care of us from cradle to grave, and that we can be the policeman of the world. So someday, we as a country, we as a people, and we as a Congress, will have to say, “What should the role of government be?” The founders had a pretty strong suggestion, they wrote a constitution that said the government should be very limited, and the government should be protecting our liberties and providing national defense and a sound currency. We don’t do any of that. We’ve embarked on a course that was destined to end badly and this is where we are today. So if we don’t understand this, this default will not be because we don’t send out the checks – we will send out the checks – it will be defaulted on because people will get their money back, or they will get their Social Security checks, and it won’t buy anything. That is much, much worse than facing the fact that we not raise the debt limit and work our way out of this. That is devastating economically, and it’s devastating politically, because if we just saw a taste of what happens, how the anger is built when you see other countries in Europe now defaulting and can’t pay their bills. So this is more significant than ever, because we provide the reserve currency of the world.

TRUTH

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Wed 07/20/11 10:06 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 07/20/11 10:18 AM
The debt ceiling debate is providing plenty of opportunity for political theater in Washington. Proponents of raising the debt ceiling are throwing around the usual scare tactics and misinformation in order to intimidate opponents into accepting more debt and taxes. It is important to distinguish the truth from the propaganda.

First of all, politicians need to understand that without real change default is inevitable. In fact, default happens every day through monetary policy tricks. Every time the Federal Reserve engages in more quantitative easing and devalues the dollar, it is defaulting on the American people by eroding their purchasing power and inflating their savings away. The dollar has lost nearly 50% of its value against gold since 2008. The Fed claims inflation is 2% or less over the past few years; however economists who compile alternate data show a 9% inflation rate if calculated more traditionally. Alarmingly, the administration is talking about changing the methodology of the CPI calculation yet again to hide the damage of the government’s policies. Changing the CPI will also enable the government to avoid giving seniors a COLA (cost of living adjustment) on their social security checks, and raise taxes via the hidden means of “bracket creep.” This is a default. Just because it is a default on the people and not the banks and foreign holders of our debt does not mean it doesn’t count.

Politicians also need to acknowledge that our debt is unsustainable. For decades our government has been spending and promising far more than it collects in taxes. But the problem is not that the people are not taxed enough. The government has managed to run up $61.6 trillion in unfunded liabilities, which works out to $528,000 per household. A tax policy that would aim to extract even half that amount of money from American families would be unimaginably draconian, and not unlike attempting to squeeze blood from a turnip. This is, unequivocally, a spending problem brought about by a dramatically inflated view of the proper role of government in a free society.

Perhaps the most abhorrent bit of chicanery has been the threat that if a deal is not reached to increase the debt by August 2nd, social security checks may not go out. In reality, the Chief Actuary of Social Security confirmed last week that current Social Security tax receipts are more than enough to cover current outlays. The only reason those checks would not go out would be if the administration decided to spend those designated funds elsewhere. It is very telling that the administration would rather frighten seniors dependent on social security checks than alarm their big banking friends, who have already received $5.3 trillion in bailouts, stimulus and quantitative easing. This instance of trying to blackmail Congress into tax increases by threatening social security demonstrates how scary it is to be completely dependent on government promises and why many young people today would jump at the chance to opt out of Social Security altogether.

We are headed for rough economic times either way, but the longer we put it off, the greater the pain will be when the system implodes. We need to stop adding more programs and entitlements to the problem. We need to stop expensive bombing campaigns against people on the other side of the globe and bring our troops home. We need to stop allowing secretive banking cartels to endlessly enslave us through monetary policy trickery. And we need to drastically rethink government’s role in our lives so we can get it out of the way and get back to work.

More truth.

Both sides are ignoring this truth in pursuit of there own agendas, to get reelected, to blame the other side to get election results fullstop. THAT is all they care about.



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Wed 07/20/11 12:30 PM
What people can do:

Stop paying taxes, stop using banks.

Start trading and bartering. Stop buying all that imported crappy junk from China and Indonesia made by poverty stricken people. (Name brand crap like Niki etc.)

Sell your car, get a bicycle.

Plant a garden, grow your own food. Reduce spending.

Don't vote.




creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 01:08 PM
Don't vote? That is the metaphorical equivalent to putting your blindfold on, and getting ready to walk the plank.

You can bet your tail that the top 5% of the wealthy members of society will vote, and you can bet that those who have great wealth but want even more will continue to buy congressional votes whenever, wherever, and however they can. You can bet that those votes will attempt to lower taxes on the wealthy. You can bet that those votes will attempt to remove collective bargaining rights. You can bet that those votes will attempt to cut funding to public schools, to public healthcare, to public welfare programs. You can bet that those votes will attempt to remove minimum wage laws. You can bet that those votes will attempt to remove employer responsibilities to workers even more than it is already, which is too low.

This is a representative government. Who is representing who?

creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 01:12 PM
Edited by creativesoul on Wed 07/20/11 01:13 PM
Accountability. Self-sufficiency. Union. Loyalty.

Freedom is a myth.

creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 01:16 PM
Watch this

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Wed 07/20/11 01:32 PM
The real reasons more people are getting poorer right now is not just that the jobs are not out there.

The biggest reason is what Dr Paul spoke about in those quoted paragraphs. The devaluation of the dollar, more money buys less. The financial tricks to hide the real inflation are making everyone think we are better off than what is really happening.

Less would buy more if we didn't allow too big to fail, less would buy more if we stopped the FED from printing money hand over fist.

In another thread they talk about "terrorist" policies, I will just call it fear mongering myself, and that is exactly what the politicians do when they want to pass a bill, they say SS checks wont go out, well only if they steal from SS to prop up there own spending.

Seriously would love for anyone to respond to these real issues instead of bickering over how to help the poor, we need to keep the rich from stealing from the nation as a whole, this devalues the dollar, this defaults on the workers of the nation.

Investment will increase if the dollar is stronger. Strong money means more money to invest becuase it costs less to run your business.

Low taxes plus strong money = economic success locally.
High taxes plus weak money = economic success for those trading and exporting our wealth.

creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 01:44 PM
Edited by creativesoul on Wed 07/20/11 01:56 PM


On the other link, after clicking the play arrow, click on Citizens United vs. FEC 2011 found on the right side bar

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Wed 07/20/11 01:51 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 07/20/11 01:52 PM


We're sorry, the page you requested cannot be found.

Also I will have to watch it later, am at work.

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Wed 07/20/11 01:53 PM

Bad link...

On the other, after clicking the play arrow, click on Citizens United vs. FEC 2011 found on the right side bar


I've watched those, they are have been thoroughly debunked and they were made for kids.

creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 01:57 PM
Not simple enough evidently...

creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 01:59 PM
The Supreme Court case has been "thoroughly debunked"?

Interesting how you filter through posts... responding to the simplistic versions, while not attending to the moral aspect that you invoked earlier.


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Wed 07/20/11 02:02 PM

The Supreme Court case has been "thoroughly debunked"?

Interesting how you filter through posts... responding to the simplistic versions, while not attending to the moral aspect that you invoked earlier.




The children's video you linked has been debunked.

creativesoul's photo
Wed 07/20/11 02:04 PM
Well spider...

Explain how, in your own terms.

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Wed 07/20/11 02:05 PM
I'll place dollars to donuts that most of the poor in Hong Kong live better than the middle class in Honduras.

Sweden is a terrible example for you to use, because they are a very free country economically, more free than the USA. Their low income disparity is due to high taxation on citizens (not business), with families usually only taking home 40% of their paycheck. On top of that, there is a very high tax rate of 25% on food.


OK. You win a point. I shouldn't have said 'businesses that are undertaxed and under regulated'. We were not really talking about corporate taxes. However, I can prove that, among the countries with all of the most successful economies in the world, corporate income taxes as a % of GDP are the highest, some, very high. America's is relatively quite low as of 2002. It certainly isn't any higher now. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/69xx/doc6902/11-28-CorporateTax.pdf Table 1

I should have specified personal income taxes. All the scandinavian countries have high taxes and the average standard of living is very high. People in these countries are very happy with their economies. They have very low GINIs (low concentration of wealth). Good business regulation and adequate taxation.

Can you tell me about a single country with low taxation and low business regulation where everybody is happy?

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Wed 07/20/11 02:07 PM

Well spider...

Explain how, in your own terms.


Story of Citizens United v. FEC, The Critique