Those arguing about the poorest members of America as if 'welfare' is the problem in the country are barking up the wrong tree. If we're going to be pissed off, let us at least be pissed off at the correct people. We could wipe the poor and their entitlements out completely and the problem would remain. The problem is our economy and it is not as a result of the 'welfare state'. It is the result of capitalism being employed by those who do not and could not care less about the society from which they accrue massive amounts of wealth. That is the problem. It is not the poorest members of society that are destroying the middle class in America. It is not govt. itself that is destroying the middle class in America. It is the wealthiest and their power, which happens to be in the govt. You people have been lied to and you believe it. It is a tactic as old as The Art of War... divide and conquer. The elite are buying media outlets which serve this very goal. To create division. They control they money. LOOK IT UP. And yes, if you think that it is a hypothetical "they" you are wrong. Look at the caimpaign contributions of the GOP. LOOK IT UP.

Greed and big business(corporationism) is the root of the problem in this country, the reason for the housing bubble and collapse, the reason for unnecessarily high fuel prices, the reason for the failing infrastructure. The reason that millions and millions of people's lives have collapsed. This country has been divided, people. A house divided cannot stand. There is no sense of "brotherhood". This country is a union. And it is being destroyed in the same way, with the same devices, that the working class unions have been in the past 30 years. This began with Ronald Reagan's "The government is the problem". Government is not a bad thing. It is necessary to govern the business activities of those greedy and callous enough to accure huge amounts of wealth while keeping employee pay rates at a sub-poverty scale, not because they cannot afford to pay workers a decent wage, but because they do not have to. This is clearly supported by the recent talks pushing the agenda to abolish minimum wage. As it is, it is so low that it is not enough to support a family, it is not enough to live and pursue a formal post secondary education, and so many still qualify to recieve 'welfare' even though they work full time. Take both of those things away, and what happens to the possibility of the American Dream for poor people?

Does that fix the economy? Hell no. It makes it worse.

Wake up.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That is the America that the world so loved, that is the America which everyone wanted to be a part of. That is the America that I love.

Now, there was, at one time, the ability to abuse the system and sit back and do nothing while having lots of kids and get paid for doing that. That is no longer the case. Clinton put an end to it - not Reagan who closed the insane asylums only to put those people on the streets and pay them 'welfare' while simultaneously ending good paying and necessary middle-class jobs. The entire 'welfare' budget is generously 12-14% of the overall budget. The actual amount going to those who do not work is much much less. The welfare budget is broken down into the six main categories below.

1.General retirement and disability insurance
2.Federal employee retirement and disability
3.Unemployment compensation
4.Housing assistance
5.Food and nutrition assistance
6.Other income security

The problem of the economy(after all that's the real problem here) is corporationism. The problem is greed. The problem is speculation. The problem are merchants. The problem is govt. corruption, and business/govt. collusion. The problem is Wall Street who drive pricing. The naturally occurring supply/demand model has been made obsolete. This is clearly seen by comparing the differences between the regulations in booming economic times and now. The problem is not those who receive govt. money and immediately put it back into circulation. That boosts the economy. The 'welfare' programs are inconsequential to the real problem. They played no role in creating the problem. Therefore, they ought play no role in fixing it. As I've said, anyone who believes that the poorest members are the problem is arguing from literal ignorance of the situation.

The middle class needs work that has been shipped overseas by the wealthiest. They did so in order to increase their own profit margin. It has been at the expense of not only the former employees and thier families, but also at the expense of Joe Q Public. Afterall, the savings are not passed on to the American public - the customers. Prices still increase, manufacturing jobs are lost(increasing the poor class), and the rich get richer while the middle class and the poor get poorer. LOOK AT THE DATA! The poor working need jobs that have been shipped overseas by the the wealthiest. The same story. The govt. offers incentives for big business to do such a thing. They liquidate assets, moving all operations overseas, and then do not pass the saving onto the customer - us. Their only loyalty is to their own pocketbook. They have no loyalty to this country, no loyalty to the people in this country, and this kind of divisive thinking is paid for by ads and politicians who treat it as if it is a problem with govt itself. THAT KIND OF THINKING IS THE PROBLEM. While moving American jobs overseas is extremely profitable - who benefits? It costs good-paying American jobs, lowers the average American income, increasing the need for the welfare programs, and creates a bigger and bigger gap between the haves and the have nots.

What sense does it make, to allow a person to have such power, influence, and direct determination regarding the livelihood of so many people and their families - which they could care less about?

Now, I'm laying the reasons why it is a mistake, a huge mistake, to believe 1. that the poor are the problem 2. that dissolving/cutting the govt programs would fix anything that needs fixed. 3. that raising taxes on the wealthiest is bad.

Poor people, those receiving SSI(disability) benefits are a very small percentage of the budget. That is a fact. Those who rightfully qualify cannot work due to some condition or another that is no fault of their own. That is another fact. That is how mentally retarded people survive, for instance. That is how severe amputees are able to survive, for instance.

A mother no longer receives the same benefits without being actively engaged in learning a skill and putting that skill to use. That is a fact. Those benefits are no longer given for an indefinite amount of time. That is another fact. In order to even receive maximum food stamps, a person must be engaged in a jobs program. These are all good measures, however...

Dissolving these programs would not create the funding that is necessary to balance the budget, nor would it fix the economy - which is the problem. There are no good paying jobs in this country for people who were not born into fortunate sets of circumstances. The middles class is shrinking at an exponential rate, for reasons already given. It is not because of govt. 'welfare'. That is clearly supported by the fact that the budget has been balanced under Clinton with all of these programs in place along with a more reasonable tax rate on millionaires.

Here is yet another point worth mentioning... If it were not for American society the huge amounts of wealth could not be accrued to begin with. No society = no possibility to accrue wealth. This current type of business model, which gives total power over worker wages and benefits to the owners' own moral compass, is completely unsustainable if the owners' do not care about thier employees, their families, and or society as a whole. The wealthiest people know this, and because they know this, they have pushed for the trade agreements and all of the laws which facilitate their business moves. If this country collapses, and it will if this continues, they could care less, because they will live somewhere else, already run their businesses somewhere else, all the while paying those foreign workers pennies on the dollar, running the slave labor sweatshops that this country outlawed long ago due to human rights violations. The owners will continue to amass huge fortunes on the backs of foreign workers at the expense of destroying this country.

The cycle begins anew in another. The working class will rise up and demand better conditions, better pay, etc. China is already showing the signs.

Wake up.

Govt. is not the problem, it is a corrupted govt. that is the problem. It is the greedy elected officials which do not have what is best for 98% of Americans in mind. It is the financial support behind those politicans which is the problem. It is the ability to buy a politican which is the problem. It is campaign finance that is the problem. It is the moral degradation of this country which is the problem. Not 'moral' as in whose right it is to abort a fetus or not. Not 'moral' as in whose right it is to be married or not. But moral as in whose interests should be pursued when comparing what is best for 98% of the country, and what is best for the remaining 2%.

For the security and interest of the nation on a whole, it is always better when - if the interests of 98% conflict with the wealthiest 2%, we err on the side of the poor and middle class? There is no conflict of interest between the middle and poor classes people.

Wake up.

Proletarianism at its finest.

Workers of the world unite so you can serve the masters of the state.

But I am sure they will be proletariats like yourselves.

They will just live in better houses, drive better cars and eat better food.

a rough life living in hawaii...

How unengaging and thoughtless.

the liberals cry when you don't agree with them...

Amen

I appreciate it when people can string terms together into a meaningful, coherent, intelligible, and valid argument.


Edited to correct my own grammar... ooops!

Hey Dragoness!

yea, yea, you and every other liberal... i don't really like to argue with liberals anymore, just seems pointless...

Do you disagree with the problem - at large - that has been developed in the OP? If so, state your case. If you do not wish to debate this in a logical and reasonable manner... then bugger off!

Hey , great write. Put into well formulated words that are pretty much how I see it.

Of course, you will be called a liberal but don't fret, they don't know what a liberal really is . They have been taught it is the boogie man and they still believe it.

I know you usually stay out of the political stuff. Great to hear your voice in here though.

There is no political philosophy forum.



Just attempting to put some facts out there from which to work with. There are plenty of strong, very strong, arguments against my position, although they are lacking as of now.

Understood.

Political philosophy, hmmmm? Might be interesting.

I looked for a political forum outside of here to discuss matters at a less "passionate" level but they are not to be found. They have some major bash the other guy forums and sites though.

bugger off? hahahahaha thats about the fruitiest thing i have ever heard....

I appreciate it when people can string terms together into a meaningful, coherent, intelligible, and valid argument.

I am off to bed now, good night creative

Sleep well, my friend.

I think blaming our societal ills on "Corporationism" is far too simplistic.

There are problems everywhere in the system.

Companies are not the source of all evil. It is the people making
the decisions who are responsible for waste, fraud and abuse.

It can be argued that our government has done a lot wrong in terms
of mismanagement, deficit spending and lax regulation.

But the extremely regulated opposite of "Corporationism" is the
also flawed Communist model which instead of handing political
power to the proletariat actually created a political ubercorp
of sorts.

Certainly our education system is doing a poor job in preparing our
kids for intellectual excellence.

Our society needs productive jobs, food, housing, a decent standard
of living and medical care but not as a nanny state. We need to
strive to find better and more efficient ways always to be both
productive and compassionate. We need to find ways to offer decent
jobs with decent wages for everyone and better ways to attack
problems of poverty, greed, crime, fraud and abuse.

Sure corporations can be abusive but they are not the ultimate
evil and are not responsible for all of the problems and eliminating
corporate structure or private enterprise will not solve our
problems. Idealistic Communism was the latest approach to getting
rid of private enterprise but it has also been a failure.

The issues are complex and varied and can't be addressed with
simple fixes. We need to improve on all fronts.

if i'm to talk about the problem then the problem needs to be stated in a much shorter fashion.

What? Condense it like reader's digest? What would you leave out in order for it to be more mentally palpable? While I rarely agree with creative, he did lay his thoughts and facts out. I believe that ours is a society of instant gratification and your comment has bolstered that belief.