They do not contradict.


To make the claim that "I believe" that aliens exist is not the same as making the claim that "Aliens do for a fact, exist."

I would most certainly be asked to prove the latter claim, but I am not obliged to prove to anyone what I believe. That is a personal statement about me.

If I say I believe in God, I am not obliged to prove that God exists to justify my belief.

If I say that God exists for a fact, then I would certainly be asked to provide proof or evidence.

This is because what I believe is my business and it is personal to me.

All I'm saying is every bit of this confusion comes a direct result of misunderstanding truth.

It is not belief.
It is not knowledge.
It is not reality.
It is not an object.
It is not subjective.

It is connective. Everyone thinks that their beliefs are true. That is what makes them belief. That does not require absolute and unshakable certainty, as if to say that their beliefs cannot be wrong. It is not to say that one can prove truth, we cannot. That does not make truth useless nor subjective, nor objective.

Truth is presupposed in belief, argued for with justification, and our belief is proven wrong by neither.

We cannot prove it right.

"I believe Kennedy was assassinated by a secret society."

If anyone were interested why I believe that I might refer them to several source books I read that convinced me and explain my reasoning. They are free to disagree or agree with my opinion.

But if I said:

"Kennedy was assassinated by a secret society."
It would be justified and reasonable for someone to ask for or demand to see the evidence for that claim.

An opinion is not a claim. A claim expects others to accept it as true. An opinion is a self report. It reveals a position or point of view.

Really? I don't make the claim that my beliefs are true. So your claim above is false.

Nobody said it was, nor does it need to be. Here's what was written...



1. I believe aliens exist...
2. I think that is is very likely that aliens are...
3. I am not claiming that aliens exist...

So your beliefs are false?

Bah.

That is for you to decide.

Whether or not I believe they are true or false is irrelevant because that is personal to me. I may be of the opinion that something is "highly unlikely" or "very possible" or even "probably true."

When I state "I believe" in front of anything it always leaves open the possibility that I could be wrong, hence 100% certainty is not there.

That is why I always say that the only thing I am certain of is that I exist.

I never say "I believe I exist." I always say "I know I exist."

The difference between your conversation and my conversation is that I will ask you "Do you understand what I am saying?"

And you will ask me:

"Do you agree?"

You seek agreement and confirmation.

I seek understanding and communication.

"I believe aliens exist..."

"I am not making the claim that aliens exist..."

What point was that? You mean the personal remarks about me and liking to argue and all that other stuff, proving somebody wrong and needing to be right? I hope not. I mean that is a fallacy in thought as well... it's called poisoning the well.

There are some clear examples of the disingeuous nature of such claims as well that we can look at.

1. It is like asking a man if they still beat their wife.

The question presupposes that the man beat his wife to begin with. Therefore, the question not only presupposes the man's guilt, but it also taints the conversation to begin with. It leaves the man to answer a question that makes him look guilty either way.

If he says no, and the question is believed to be an appropriate one, then he seems to be admitting that he once did, but he no longer does.

If he says yes... well he's guilty right? No problem there.

--

The same disingenuous approach can be used to say to another, you just like to argue, you don't want to hear opinions, etc.

Any answer could seem to prove the point to the unattentive listener. A reasonable person knows that the statement leaves the person without the ability to defend what could very well be a false claim, and that that is a disingenuous tack of thought.

It is also rather pointless to enter into a discussion on a philosophy forum and to act as if arguing is a bad thing. That is what doing philosophy is all about. Philosophy is all about logic which is all about argumentative form and proper inference.

Do you believe that everything I say that I believe in is true?

Opinion.

Is that true?

Double Bah.

JB,

To paraphrase what you are communicating here:

There is nothing of which you are certain, except that you exist.

Therefore, you believe that you have no knowledge of things that correspond to reality because you are not sure that there is such a thing as reality.

All you hold are personal opinions which cannot be shown to correspond with the real world, again because you question whether the physical world even exists.

I find a fundamental flaw in your reasoning that has to do with existence and behavior.

You are certain you exist and since you only know the shape, form, and attributes of YOU as human, then you are admitting that YOUR existence corresponds to this physical reality.

By association you certainly hold other beliefs that you believe correspond to the reality of this physical existence.

For example, you would not jump off a 5 story building expecting to fly – would you? Why?

If you wanted to know whether a gun was loaded or not, you would not point it at a passerby and pull the trigger to find out – would you? Why?

If your stomach is growling and you realize you have not eaten since yesterday, would you think you might be hungry? Why?

Behavior is tied to beliefs. If you don’t presuppose that what you believe is true (corresponds to reality) then you could not be able to take care of yourself because you wouldn’t know how to behave and you would probably be a danger to others as well.

Prepare the floor, the linguistic gymnastics are about to begin again...

Di,

Your summary is completely absurd.

You don't understand either.

I'm quite sure that Abra completely understands everything I am saying but he has been banned from posting.

I can see why you and Creative are perfectly suited to carry on pointless meaningless conversations that are completely mental.

I am convinced that there is no way to help you or him understand what I mean considering this post above.

You are either being sarcastic or you are not even near a point of understanding.

I will spare you and him any further 'gymnastics' you two are not reachable.

That statement was an EXAMPLE of a statement of belief.

It is not a claim that aliens exist and are responsible for cattle mutilations, it is a statement of belief, which is a self report which is an OPINION being reported. It could even be considered a confession of belief.

The question of whether or not it is true, that I actually believe in aliens is IRRELEVANT!

It is irrelevant because it is a report of a personal belief and not a statement of fact or a claim that aliens exist. Do you understand the difference?

A statement of belief is not a claim. It does not demand that a person stating a belief always present evidence to support the claim or proof.

For example:

Person A asks: "Do you believe in God?"

Person Be answers: "Yes."

Person A: "Where is your proof that God exists?"

Person A is being pushy, argumentative, inappropriate and rude to demand proof of a statement of belief.

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