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| Topic: When the Bible is discredited... | |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 06/28/11 09:28 AM
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Jeanniebean leans out the window and screams:
Personally, I am angry and I'm not going to take it anymore. I'm sick of the unsupported, unscientific, absurd claims made by all religions. I say prove it, or get out of my face with it. Live in darkness if you chose but don't peddle your unproven information and untruths to me. Put up or shut up. Jrboogie asks: jeannie, it seems to me that you accept supernatural phenomena, spirits, etc., without scientific support as well that you cannot prove anymore than a christian can prove that mary was a virgin. why the anger? we're just having a disscussion.  >>We're just having a discussion..<< (LOL you sound like Cowboy.) I'm not angry at anyone in particular or personally. I'm basically angry at the lie and the people who know it is a lie, and yet keep it to themselves. So many people believe things that have no basis in reality and no credible evidence supporting it, and they have the audacity to scold,judge and attack me personally because I challenge their information and ask them for evidence. Something that makes sense. I want 'believable evidence." Not propaganda or fables. I'm not even angry at people who spew nonsense like: "..and that includes tarrot cards that you read to others,through your self,(it proves you believe in the devils work ,darkness,because thats what it is,did you know the devil himself when you come against GOD ALMIGHTY..." What I may or may not believe in (or why) is not really the issue. I may have attempted to "sell it" in the past, but I do believe I have changed. if you don't wish "to take it anymore" the answer is simple; stay away from religious forums such as this. 'put up or shut up' sounds much like a christian saying, 'believe as i believe or else.' you both understand that you'll never be able to prove anything to the other. in this life anyway. I do not say "believe as I believe or else" or anything similar. -If I have please point it out to me and I will apologize and change my evil ways. I also don't want to get into a long discussion about what it takes to 'prove' something to someone else, and although I use the term "proof" (for convenience) I also ask for(at least) some "credible evidence" to look at and examine if they want me to consider their claims. I have also been told that I have no business in the Science forum, and I have mentioned that there really is no forum for me on this club. (No matter where I post I am "in the wrong forum" according to someone.) Looking at the world as a whole I detect a society largely manipulated by lies and propaganda using religious ridiculi. (That's a new word I made up.) Ridiculi : Noun: meaning ridiculous inaccurate information. My conclusion is that someone or some Elite group is manipulating people with ridiculi for their own gain. I am angry at them. I want people to ask for evidence of THEIR claims and discredit their ridiculi.   I will start. Call it the movement against ridiculi. I will ask for evidence when someone tells me that something is "truth." I will expect the same in return. (If anyone is truly interested in what I believe I will certainly share it with them, but I am not trying to manipulate or rule the world with what I believe, so what I believe or why is not really important in the scheme of things.) I'm not looking for converts, I'm looking for truth. I have to ask for evidence. Its a requirement of the movement to rid the world of ridiculi. Anymore questions? |
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I've got one Jb.
What would constitute adequate evidence for a truth claim? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 06/28/11 01:52 PM
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I've got one Jb. What would constitute adequate evidence for a truth claim? For evidence of the Biblical story of King David and others I would love to see some unbiased archaeological evidence from as many different sources as possible. By "unbiased" I mean from scientific, historic, archaeological, investigators who have no agenda or are not being financed by anyone with an agenda who are paying them to produce a biased report. Therefore the investigator would have to be investigated, and the person paying him would also be examined for motive and agenda. I would not want a person who is a strong atheist trying to disprove God or religion any more than I would want a person who is a true believer who seeks to prove his claims. Unbiased, scientific, archaeological evidence. If that is not possible, set up a team of a mixture of people who can balance the playing field, but they must be sincerely in search of truth, not trying to prove or disprove a claim or belief. |
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I think that we agree here. There is no such a thing as a completely "unbiased" investigator, Jb. Therefore we cannot ask for something that is impossible. Facts are unbiased. However, putting the facts together requires a subject. Subjects are necessarily biased. So, the best we can hope for is to have an investigator who has little to no emotional/professional attachment to the possible outcome - no matter which way it turns out.
Agreed? If so, what kind of "hard" evidence would be necessary/adequate in order to prove that King David did not exist? Likewise, if we prove his existence beyond a reasonable doubt, does that and that alone prove that everything said/written about him, or attributed to him rings true? |
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If that is not possible, set up a team of a mixture of people who can balance the playing field, but they must be sincerely in search of truth, not trying to prove or disprove a claim or belief There's nothing wrong with consequentially proving or disproving a belief. I must ask though, how could one possibly go out with the intentions of verifying or falsifying the Bible without trying to prove or disprove a claim or belief? I'm confused. 
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 06/28/11 02:14 PM
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I think that we agree here. There is no such a thing as a completely "unbiased" investigator, Jb. Therefore we cannot ask for something that is impossible. Facts are unbiased. However, putting the facts together requires a subject. Subjects are necessarily biased. So, the best we can hope for is to have an investigator who has little to no emotional/professional attachment to the possible outcome - no matter which way it turns out. Agreed? Yes. A person who has no emotional or professional attachment to the outcome or conclusions would be perfect. A rare thing to find though. So a team would be better. If so, what kind of "hard" evidence would be necessary/adequate in order to prove that King David did not exist? #1, A: Good question. (Proving that someone did not exist might be more difficult than proving that someone did exist.) If there is ample evidence for many prominent important characters (Kings, etc.) of the past, but none about King David, that does not actually prove that he did not exist, it only implies that he "probably" did not exist. Adequate evidence that he did not exist, for me, might be if they found archaeological (not just scriptural) evidence of all or most of the other Kings of that time period in that region (and their families) but absolutely none for King David, Abraham etc. Adequate evidence that he did exist would be to find archaeological verified, dated evidence (tablets in that time period etc.) that also included evidence of his reign, his family, etc. There should be a lot of evidence if he did exist, but if none is found it can be safely assumed, that he did not exist. Likewise, if we prove his existence beyond a reasonable doubt, does that and that alone prove that everything said/written about him, or attributed to him rings true? Of course not. Each claim must stand on its own. But first thing's first. Prove he existed. |
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Edited by
RKISIT
on
Tue 06/28/11 02:14 PM
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it just so funny how the pyramids and all the evidence that shows of the egyptian rulers and who they dealt with is found,hell even the persian temples and burials of high ruling ranks can be found,documents,inscriptions,that 100% show accuracy that they did exist...blah blah blah.
though not any actual proof can be found that moses,noah,jesus,god,king david,well solomon couldn't exist if david didn't..etc,100% accurately existed.. hell noone even really knows where jesus was laid to rest before he supposively rose from the dead.theres bits and pieces but nothing solid and these people are equal if not more well known than the persians and egyptians elite.hell look at all the proof that the roman empire existed and jesus was around when it was. |
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If that is not possible, set up a team of a mixture of people who can balance the playing field, but they must be sincerely in search of truth, not trying to prove or disprove a claim or belief There's nothing wrong with consequentially proving or disproving a belief. I must ask though, how could one possibly go out with the intentions of verifying or falsifying the Bible without trying to prove or disprove a claim or belief? I'm confused. I stand corrected.  If there is a team involved, there should be some looking to prove, and some trying to disprove the claim, but all should put finding truth above that agenda. |
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it just so funny how the pyramids and all the evidence that shows of the egyptian rulers and who they dealt with is found,hell even the persian temples and burials of high ruling ranks can be found,documents,inscriptions,that 100% show accuracy that they did exist...blah blah blah. though not any actual proof can be found that moses,noah,jesus,god,king david,well solomon couldn't exist if david didn't..etc,100% accurately existed.. hell noone even really knows where jesus was laid to rest before he supposively rose from the dead.theres bits and pieces but nothing solid and these people are equal if not more well known than the persians and egyptians elite. That is my point exactly. |
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This is my own evaluation of the over all situation in the Middle east. Iraq and Egypt and other places there have tons of archaeological evidence of many things that a lot of people do not want known. The temple mount, the pyramids, and probably sites in Iraq we don't even know of. This area is the cradle of humanity. It holds the evidence, and that evidence is being destroyed and hidden by the people who do not want their lies to be exposed. I don't think the disputes are about land. There is tons of land in Africa, Alaska, and South America. But all the major conflicts of the world have mostly centered in the Middle east. They are hiding the truth, destroying the evidence. |
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Do you have any unbiased facts compiled by a balanced team of archeologists to support this conspiricy theory?
The facts, to me at least, show that he who controls the money controls the people in a capitalist scheme. I think that it has nothing to do with religion. Religion is a tool used to emotionally motivate and influence people's opinions, as well as an easy means for regular people to make sense of things, and perhaps give themselves a goal, purpose, and/or hope for a better future. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 06/28/11 02:48 PM
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Do you have any unbiased facts compiled by a balanced team of archeologists to support this conspiricy theory? No. And I would not call it a "conspiracy theory." It is my overall evaluation of the Middle east area and situation. It has been called "The cradle of civilization." The facts, to me at least, show that he who controls the money controls the people in a capitalist scheme. I totally agree with you on that too. I think that it has nothing to do with religion. Religion is a tool used to emotionally motivate and influence people's opinions, as well as an easy means for regular people to make sense of things, and perhaps give themselves a goal, purpose, and/or hope for a better future. Oh it has everything to do with religion and belief systems. Yes, religions are used as a tool to emotionally motivate and influence people's opinions. That "tool" was created for that purpose. The both of those reasons are intricately intertwined. Expose the ridiculi, and you find the truth. Ridiculi : Noun: meaning ridiculous inaccurate information. |
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Here is some of the super hidden evidence in various states of excavation...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/archtoc.html 6,000 Year Old Cemetery Adullam Akko: The Maritime Capital of the Crusader Kingdom Akeldama, From the Diaspora to Jerusalem Ancient Arad Ancient Byzantine Church discovered in Tiberias Ancient Inscription of Alphabet Discovered Near Jerusalem Ancient Jewish Coins Ancient Jewish Site from United Kingdom Period Discovered at Kana Ancient Mosaic Recovered from Palestinian Thieves The Ancient Synagogue at Bar’am Antiquities in Kfar Kana Apollonia-Arsuf Arad Ararat Arbel: Ancient Synagogue Arbel [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Archaeological Analysis Proves Hasmonean Rule Extended to Negev Highlands Archaeological Excavations in Israel (2011) Archaeological Sites in Israel — An Introduction Archaeologists May Have Found Evidence of Goliath Archaeologists Uncover the “Oldest Church” in Israel Archaeology Archeology - 21st Century Style Archaeology of Jerusalem Athlit Avdat: A Nabatean City in the Negev Avedat [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Banyas: Cult Center of the God Pan Banias [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Be’er Shema - The Church of St. Stephen Be’er Sheva: Prehistoric Dwelling Sites Beersheba — the Southern Border of the Kingdom of Judah Beit Alpha Beit Govrin - A Roman Amphitheater Beit She’an Bet She'an (Virtual Israel Experience) Bet(H)-Shean [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Beit Shemesh: Biblical City on the Border Between Judah and Philistia Belvoir: A Crusader Fortress Overlooking the Jordan Valley Bet She’arim: The Jewish Necropolis of the Roman Period Bethsaida Bethsaida [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Byzantine Churches in the Negev Caesarea Capernaum The Carmel Caves: Dwellings of Prehistoric Man Cave of the Treasure Chorazin Chorazin [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Church of John the Baptist Discovered The Church of the House of Peter The Church of the Seat of Mary (Kathisma) Coin of Jesus Found in Ancient Tiberias Excavation Crusader Fortress of Tiberias Dan: The Biblical City Dan [Encyclopaedia Judaica] The Dead Sea Scrolls The Eilat Region Ein Gedi: An Ancient Oasis Settlement Ein Hazeva Ein Hatzeva: An Israelite Fortress on the Border with Edom Ekron: A Philistine City Fishing Boat from Migdal Gamla: Jewish City on the Golan Gezer Gezer Calendar Golan - A Unique Chalcolithic Culture Golan Dolmens The Golan: Rogem Hiri The Greek Orthodox Church of the Seven Apostles Haifa University Archeologist Uncovers World’s Oldest Bedding Hamat Gader: Baths of Medicinal Hot Springs Hatzor Herodian: King Herod’s Palace - Fortress Herod the Great’s Tomb Discovered Horbat Omrit Jaffa: Horse Skeletons Jericho - The Winter Palace of King Herod Kadesh Kastra: An Ancient Bread Seal Katzrin Kh. Tinshemet Khirbet Sufa Kiryat Sefer Kursi: Christian Monastery on the Shore of the Sea of Galilee Lachish: Royal City of the Kingdom of Judah Lachish [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Maresha: A Hellenistic Measuring Table Masada: Desert Fortress Overlooking the Dead Sea Papyri Megiddo - The Solomonic Chariot City IAA Recommends Moving Megiddo Prison Israel Postal Authority: Megiddo Prison (Legio) Megiddo Prison to be Transferred The Monastery of Martyrius Nag Hammadi Codices Nahal Be’er Sheva Nahal Refaiim: Caananite Bronze Age Villages near Jerusalem Nazareth Excavation Discovers Remains of Building from Time of Jesus Nazareth [Encyclopaedia Judaica] Nebi Samwil The Nimrod Fortress: Muslim Stronghold in the Golan Nizzanah Numismatics Palestine Exploration Fund Palestinian, Israeli Scholarly Teams Preserve Shared Heritage Sites Palmahim: A 6000 Year Old Cemetery is Exposed in Excavations Pekiin: A Karstic Cave Qumran The Ram of Atlit Ramat Rahel Ramla: Arab Capital of the Province of Palestine Ramla Excavations: Gold & Silver Bracelets Rare Crusader Coin Found in Jafa Flea Market Recent Archeological Discoveries (1999) Recent Archeological Discoveries (2003) Remains Found of Settlement in Kana The Rockefeller Museum Rogem Hiri: An Ancient Mysterious Construction The Roman Boat from the Sea of Galilee Sha’ar Hagolan: A Neolithic Village Shechem (Nablus) The Shoham Bypass Site The Synagogue at Capernaum Tabgha: Church of the Multiplication of the Loaves and the Fishes Tel Ashdod Excavation Tel Burga Tel Dor Tel Hadid Tel Qasile Tel Shilo Tell en-Nabeh Tiberias: The Anchor Church Tiberias Excavations: Galei Kinneret Hotel Timna: Valley of the Ancient Copper Mines Top Archaeological Discoveries in Israel Underwater Exploration Along Israel’s Mediterranean Coast The Western Wall Tunnels 2,000 Year Old Mikveh in Western Wall Tunnels The Yavneh-Yam Project Yodefat Zippori The Glass from Sepphoris The Zippori Reservoir Israel has been great at preserving carefully archaeological evidence of all sorts. At least they don't destroy or hide any artifacts! All of the Egyptian and Iraqi sites and everywhere else... Now here is some real destruction of historical artifacts: Destruction and Desecration of Religious Sites Upon its capture by the Arab Legion, the Jewish Quarter of the Old City was destroyed and its residents expelled. Fifty-eight synagogues--some hundreds of years old--were destroyed, their contents looted and desecrated. Some Jewish religious sites were turned into chicken coops or animal stalls. The Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives, where Jews had been burying their dead for over 2500 years, was ransacked; graves were desecrated; thousands of tombstones were smashed and used as building material, paving stones or for latrines in Arab Legion army camps. The Intercontinental Hotel was built on top of the cemetery and graves were demolished to make way for a highway to the hotel. The Western Wall became a slum area. Jordan’s Illegal Annexation In 1950, Jordan annexed the territories it had captured in the 1948 war–-eastern Jerusalem and the West Bank. The April 24th resolution declared “its support for complete unity between the two sides of the Jordan and their union into one State, which is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, at whose head reigns King Abdullah Ibn al Husain...” While Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation – all other nations, including the Arab states, rejected it... http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/jordanianocuupationjerusalem.asp and Published on Thursday, March 1, 2001 by Agence France Presse Afghan Taliban Begin Destruction of Ancient Buddha Statues KABUL - Ignoring an international outcry, Afghanistan's puritanical Taliban Islamic militia began demolishing statues across the country on Thursday, including two towering ancient stone Buddhas. Taliban Minister of Information and Culture Qudratullah Jamal told AFP the destruction of scores of pre-Islamic figures, designed to stop the worshipping of "false idols," had begun throughout the country. Bhudda Undated photo of the world's tallest statue of Bhudda measuring 53 meters (175 feet) in Bamiyan, 125 kilometers (90 miles) west of Kabul in Afghanistan. Supreme Commander of the Taliban Mullah Mohammad Omar had ordered the destruction of all statues in Afghanistan, including the centuries-old Buddha in Bamiyan, and armed Taliban troops fanned out across the country Thursday to implement the supreme leader's order. (AP Photo) He said militiamen started wrecking the almost 2,000-year-old Buddhist masterpieces in the central province of Bamiyan, including the world's tallest standing Buddha measuring 50 meters (165 feet), after sunrise. "The work started about five hours ago but I do not know how much of it (the two Bamiyan Buddhas) has been destroyed," Jamal said. "It will be destroyed by every means. All the statues are being destroyed." http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm |
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Ridiculi : Noun: meaning ridiculous inaccurate information.
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Ridiculi : Noun: meaning ridiculous inaccurate information.
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Tue 06/28/11 03:18 PM
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Just keep denying real scholarship and promoting fake conspiracy
theories...
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I don't know JB. It seems a rather negative view to hold...
I think that at one time religion was a necessary tool not devised for the purpose of controlling people, but rather necessary for ancient humans to make sense of the things that were not understood. It seems more reasonable to say that prior to using religion to control people, the controlling party would have to somehow deny the tenets of the religion, unless it somehow supported that purpose. In todays day and age, there are many who do use religion and religious belief in order to manipulate people's thinking. However, it seems very unreasonable to hold that the sole purpose of it was to do such a thing. That casts unwarranted doubt upon the integrity of the leaders in any and all civilizations prior to the rise of non-belief. I am certain that there have been, and still are leaders of this world who think about and progress towards a better humanity over-all. Those who do not use people as a sole means to an end, but rather place the overall good of humanity as the end in itself. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 06/28/11 04:19 PM
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I don't know JB. It seems a rather negative view to hold... It is a broad and temporary impression not a hard core "view" or 'theory.' One may have to take off their rose colored glasses to see the truth. We know now how Christianity was created and designed by the Roman Catholic Church and how they designed it around (and with) pagan ideas to attract a large amount of people. Originally Rome was anti-Christian and persecuted Christians. If the truth seems "negative" to people then perhaps they should not genuinely or seriously seek the truth. I think that at one time religion was a necessary tool not devised for the purpose of controlling people, but rather necessary for ancient humans to make sense of the things that were not understood. I don't disagree with that but it is time to come out of the dark ages don't you think? We are not "ancient" humans anymore. It seems more reasonable to say that prior to using religion to control people, the controlling party would have to somehow deny the tenets of the religion, unless it somehow supported that purpose. Yes they would. That is why I think the lie was intentional. The Romans and the Roman Catholic Church did not worship Jesus, until they redesigned Christianity in order to create a religion that they could be the head of and in control of. There is money and power in religion. In todays day and age, there are many who do use religion and religious belief in order to manipulate people's thinking. However, it seems very unreasonable to hold that the sole purpose of it was to do such a thing. No it is not unreasonable at all. The Romans did it. The Catholic Church is still doing it. That casts unwarranted doubt upon the integrity of the leaders in any and all civilizations prior to the rise of non-belief. The doubt of the integrity of the leaders in any and all civilizations is not "unwarranted" at all in my opinion. People should question and ask for evidence of what they are being told. I am certain that there have been, and still are leaders of this world who think about and progress towards a better humanity over-all. Those who do not use people as a sole means to an end, but rather place the overall good of humanity as the end in itself. I'm sure there are some who believe that "the means justifies the end." I'm sure that they believe that they are acting in the best interest of humanity when they do ethnic cleansing too. |
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