The chances of those stories being true are slim and none, but at least I offer people the opportunity to show me their credible evidence.

Until then I make my conclusion that they are fiction. Like I have said, that is my opinion. You can believe what ever unsupported information you want.

You can fool all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

You are free to show me specific evidence that proves David and
Abraham never lived. Go Ahead. We are waiting patiently.



taps foot...looks expectantly and slightly indignant...
looks wistfully at large bag of popcorn...

As soon as you provide evidence that Santa Claus does not exist.

Or does exist. What ever.

Now for the umpteenth time slowhand,

I did make the claim that King David was a real person in history, like they (religions) do, so I don't have the responsibility to prove that he does not exist.

There is no evidence to support their claims.

Its the same old argument of trying to prove that GOD does not exist, or that God exists. It can't be done. That is where atheists come from.

I am not trying to convince anyone that King David never existed. I am telling people that if you can't prove he did, then I can freely assume that he didn't.

I don't believe he ever existed.

BAD CHOICE!

Saint Nicholas (Greek: Άγιος Νικόλαος, Hagios ["holy"] Nicolaos ["victory of the people"]) (270–6 December 343),[3][4] also called Nikolaos of Myra, was a historic 4th-century saint and Greek[5] Bishop of Myra (Demre, in Lycia, part of modern-day Turkey). Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nikolaos the Wonderworker (Greek: Νικόλαος ο Θαυματουργός, Nikolaos o Thaumaturgos). He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Claus, whose modern name comes from the Dutch Sinterklaas. His reputation evolved among the faithful, as was common for early Christian saints.[6] In 1087, his relics were furtively translated to Bari, in southeastern Italy; for this reason, he is also known as Nikolaos of Bari. His feastday is 6 December.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

OK YOUR TURN

You now must show us specific evidence that proves David and
Abraham never lived. Go Ahead. We are waiting patiently.



taps foot...looks expectantly and slightly indignant...
looks wistfully at large bag of popcorn...

I know where the legend comes from. But I am talking about Santa existing now, going down chimneys and bringing toys to children.

That Santa.

Okay if I told you that aliens exist and are living under the Denver Airport and abducting people would you want evidence or proof?

There is actually more evidence that aliens exist than there is that Jesus ever existed or that King David ever existed.

There are living witnesses, thousands of accounts, dead cows, missing persons, videos of people being abducted on youtube etc.

Not proof, but more evidence than for King David.

Intelligent Sci-fi = movies and series that got the science correct as far as the understanding of humans at the time of their writing/filming.

As far as the burden of proof, it does not fall upon the non-believer. The person (people) making outrageous claims must prove truth just like everything else in the world. "This man shot me an hour ago." "Where's your wound?" "Um ... it went away." "Right."

So, this includes your imaginary sky-daddies.

Sky daddies? LOL Yep it does.

If 'they' (anyone) wants me to beieve in "aliens" and UFO's they better come out of hiding and present themselves to the scientific community.

Otherwise if I see an alien I will happily tell him that he does not exist... and to stop abducting my cows god dammit!!

faith, is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen..

not all men have faith

you cant see the wind but you can feel it and see what it does, the same goes for the other things in life that cant be seen.. It doesnt mean that they dont exist..

It is impossible to please God without faith

besides 2000 years from now there may be no record of your existance either but does that mean that you never existed??

Just because your name appears in someones documentation wouldnt prove anything according to your theory,

the important thing is that while you are searching for truth, there must be a standard.. otherwise you are gonna be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine... The Word of God is infallible and will never change. It is absolute , and will be the standard in which we all will be held accountable on that day of judgement..

God will want to know what you had to do with His Son Jesus Christ in this world on that day. Yes He already knows,

Jesus said that He that is not for me is against me.. So you can remain anonymous and be tossed to and fro.. It is just the same as being against Him...

theres no doubt that there is evil in this world, You can see it in the hearts of men and even in their actions.
and the same goes for good. But without a standard the mistake of calling evil good will fall into play... There must be a standard of absolute measures..The infallible Word of God...

That's actually a very abstract philosophical argument for God. If you allow that God can do anything, then you can't prove that such a God doesn't exist.

Most people accept that Thor doesn't exist, because Thor was envisioned as a God who created lightening with his hammer. Now that we have a better understanding of what causes lightening, most people are willing to accept that Thor has been proven to be false.

He hasn't actually been "proven" to be false. Maybe there are simply other ways to create lightening and thunder than just using Thor's hammer.

But most people accept that for all intents and purposes it's basically been proven that Thor was a myth.

A similar thing is true of Zeus. Legend had it that Zeus lived on Mt. Olympus. People have since been convinced that no God live on mount Olympus, thus "disproving" the existence of Zeus.

Well, it doesn't really "disprove" that Zeus was real. Maybe he decided to move when he heard that the humans were coming to look for him.

The Hebrew Yahweh was claimed to be an all-righteous God, but there is very little that is righteous about him based on the stories that describe his behavior. He even hates anyone who doesn't believe in him obviously. That's not very righteous.

The story also has Yahweh causing women to have pain in child birth, and claiming that mankind's fall from grace was what brought death and all manner of sinful things into the world. We now know that this is false as well. Thus Yahweh has also been yet another specific fictitious God that has been proven to be false.

Of course, just like Thor and Zeus could be kept alive if a person is willing to accept excuses that don't jive with the original fables, so too people can make excuses to try to keep the myths of Yahweh alive, and they certainly do that as we well know.

However, as far as I'm concerned all of those personified idol images of egotistical godheads have all been proven to be false.

It still holds though that a totally abstract concept of a philosophical spirit like the the Eastern Mystics speak of cannot be proven to be false. There simply isn't enough concrete evidence to prove it's false.

The Mystics are the only people who truly allow God the freedom to be undefined and unknowable. So they really have the only "God-concept" that cannot be proven to be false.

All the other personified jealous egotistical judgmental Gods have been proven to be false for all intents and purposes. The fact that there exist people who still cling to those pictures despite the overwhelming evidence that they are false is unimpressive.

By they time they get done raping their Gods of ever concrete thing assigned to them, they would just end up with Mysticism anyway.

So by the time they are doing "excusing" everything, then there is nothing left in their dogma because it's all been 'excused away" and all they have left is Eastern Mysticism. An unknowable God who truly has no name, and couldn't possibly be jealous of anything because it would be everything.

All religions will inevitably end up becoming either Mysticism or Atheism.

There can be no jealous gods. That concept just can't be made to work. A jealous god would already be a flawed God that has the same kinds of weaknesses and frailties as mortal men.

Jealousy is an immature emotion.

So any jealous gods are proven to be false the moment they are proclaimed to be jealous.

I have more faith than the most zealous true believer of Christianity.

I believe in Universal law.

It is not necessary that my existence be proven 2000 years from now, because I don't plan to spawn a lineage of so-called "chosen people" and countless false religious doctrines.



Oh good, another true believer in the infallible word of God. Slowhand1 told me that Christians don't really believe that. I guess you two have never met.



How interesting, George Bush Jr. said the same thing. The difference is, I am convinced that George Bush Jr. actually exists. I was always "against him" anyway, but at least I found enough evidence and was convinced that he actually exists.

The "standard" is to expose untruths by asking for credible evidence before believing stories in a 2000 year old picked over, rewritten book that has been translated and plagiarized.

I want evidence, not fairy tales.

I am not trying to prove that King David or Jesus did not exist. I am asking someone to convince me that he did with something besides a book written hundreds of years after the event.

Otherwise you are asking me to have faith in you or in the ancient writings of who knows who.

I can have faith that by playing the lottery, one day I'll win and be rich ... chances are, that's NOT going to happen.

"God is real because I believe." Well, when I was a child, I believed the Easter Bunny hid eggs in my yard, Santa Claus came down the chimney every year and fireflies glowed because fairies were trapped in their bellies. None of that is real, however. Faith is not evidence of anything.

Says who?



You sure you aren't confusing him with George Bush?

Besides, how could you know what Jesus might have said or not said?

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever found any writings that could be attributed to Jesus. All that exists is confessed hearsay rumors. At best they could have simply misunderstood what Jesus stood for, at worst they could have need bearing false witness to what he might have actually stood for.

It's impossible to reject Jesus. Jesus didn't provide us with any way to do that. All we have concerning the man named Jesus is highly questionable and highly controversial rumors that the Jews themselves refused to believe, and renounced as being fraudulent.

I personally don't believe that the New Testament rumors can be trusted to speak for Jesus (assuming that Jesus even existed at all). They could be totally fabricate fables for we know.

No sane God could possibly be angry with anyone rational sincere person who rejects hearsay rumors that are utterly absurd.

Those stories claim that a multitude of saints rose from their graves along with Jesus, and when into the Holy City and showed themselves to the people there.

There is no independent historical evidence of any such event.

Those stories claim that God spoke to a large group of people from a cloud saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased, listen to him".

Again no independent historical evidence of any such event.

Those stories claim that Jesus went all over the countryside with larges masses of followers healing all manner of sickness and even raising people from the dead.

Again no independent historical evidence of any such events.

There's really absolutely no good reason why anyone should believe the New Testament fables. They are clearly grossly exaggerated and superstitious rumors at best, or outright totally fabricated fiction at worst.

There is no rational reason why any sane and righteous God could possibly blame anyone for dismissing such utterly unbelievable stories.

Besides, these stories even have Jesus telling people himself that he will not judge them for not believing in him.

And at the end when he was crucified in the story he supposedly cried out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

So obviously he wasn't in the frame of mind that "You're either for me or against me" at that point in time.

These stories are clearly riddled with self-contradictions even if a person wanted to accept them as some sort of truth, they would still be totally self-contradicting and riddled with mixed messages.

According to these rumors, Jesus said with his dying breath of people who were denying him, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

So clearly even if we give these stories any merit at all, Jesus obviously changed his mind at the end and came to his senses forgiving everyone even as they were denying him. He no longer held to any conviction that he would reject those who deny him. So to cling to the claim that he would does not honor Jesus' dying words.

He obviously changed his mind.

If you can believe these stories at all.

DAMN!

No wonder I haven't been able to find them.

I've been looking in all the wrong places!

Thanks for the tip!

I thought fireflies were fairies. (In disguise)

so you think the matrix got it right as far as our understanding of humans a few years ago when it was filmed? we can dodge bullets??? 2001 recieved much acclaim for it's authenticity in 1968 when it was released but 2001 actally happened a decade ago. how much in the movie turned out to actually have happened?

science is great stuff on an intellectial plain. sci fi, the bible, the koran, etc., is simply fiction dreamed by man. arguing sci fi against religion is like throwing water to a drowning man.

jeannie, it seems to me that you accept supernatural phenomena, spirits, etc., without scientific support as well that you cannot prove anymore than a christian can prove that mary was a virgin. why the anger? we're just having a disscussion. if you don't wish "to take it anymore" the answer is simple; stay away from religious forums such as this. 'put up or shut up' sounds much like a christian saying, 'believe as i believe or else.' you both understand that you'll never be able to prove anything to the other. in this life anyway.

I thought when all the flies landed on this thread it was deceased!