Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: English
msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 06/21/11 01:07 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Tue 06/21/11 01:10 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not No, God does NOT play favorites like that, and no good parent would. You've got it wrong, no parent would forever allow their children to be tortured without mercy, or let them die, much less author it all themselves because they have an ego complex and their kid didn't do exactly what they wanted. Such a parent would be renounced for it here, but if God does it it's ok? Bullcrap.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 06/21/11 01:12 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not No, God does NOT play favorites like that, and no good parent would. You've got it wrong, no parent would forever allow their children to be tortured without mercy, or let them die, much less author it all themselves because they have an ego complex and their kid didn't do exactly what they wanted. Such a parent would be renounced for it here, but if God does it it's ok? Bullcrap. eternal paradise, for even the 'worst' of us,, just for aknowledging and accepting the inheritance from Jesus what a TERRIBLE choice to give his creations,,,,,

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Tue 06/21/11 01:14 AM Edited by Kleisto on Tue 06/21/11 01:15 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not No, God does NOT play favorites like that, and no good parent would. You've got it wrong, no parent would forever allow their children to be tortured without mercy, or let them die, much less author it all themselves because they have an ego complex and their kid didn't do exactly what they wanted. Such a parent would be renounced for it here, but if God does it it's ok? Bullcrap. eternal paradise, for even the 'worst' of us,, just for aknowledging and accepting the inheritance from Jesus what a TERRIBLE choice to give his creations,,,,, It can not truly be a free choice if the options are do it or die. As I said, it's spiritual rape, because you have a choice, but there's the threat hanging over your head if you don't do as you're told. Of the divine it's not.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 06/21/11 01:15 AM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 06/21/11 01:24 AM
Sin cut us off from God. We all have a sin nature. God offers us a way back home..... Jesus. God can't force anyone to accept his Son Jesus. But God DID put a measure of FAITH in everry man, to help man seek God. God rejects no man...man rejects God. What keeps you from accepting Jesus, Kleisto? He died on that cross for you too , you know..... Do you think what Jesus did on that cross was just a joke? To be just ignored now? And think you can still come to God any ole way you want? When God already made the way for us all to come back home to Him? God is offering to us all..... the ticket to come back home ... it's already been paid for in full.... by God Himself. So why are you still rejecting this wonderful offer...and still running away from our Beautiful Saviour?

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Tue 06/21/11 01:17 AM Edited by Kleisto on Tue 06/21/11 01:20 AM
Sin cut us off from God. We all have a sin nature. Speak for yourself, I can NOT be responsible for what a man did 2,000 years ago. The idea that because one person supposedly erred, I have to carry the consequence of that mistake even when I had NOTHING to do with it and am totally innocent, is absolutely asinine and has no basis in logic and good sense. As such it cannot be true. God is with me all the time, with all of us in fact, no matter what happens. There's no hoops to jump through, no conditions, no fine print, that's all lies from man. God needs nothing except that we exist, anything else has been added by men for the purposes of control.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 06/21/11 01:17 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not No, God does NOT play favorites like that, and no good parent would. You've got it wrong, no parent would forever allow their children to be tortured without mercy, or let them die, much less author it all themselves because they have an ego complex and their kid didn't do exactly what they wanted. Such a parent would be renounced for it here, but if God does it it's ok? Bullcrap. eternal paradise, for even the 'worst' of us,, just for aknowledging and accepting the inheritance from Jesus what a TERRIBLE choice to give his creations,,,,, It can not truly be a free choice if the options are do it or die. As I said, it's spiritual rape, because you have a choice, but there's the threat hanging over your head if you don't do as you're told. Of the divine it's not. we just have to agree to disagree in your example , someone is taking something away that we have already, our MORTAL life there is no such threat to take away our mortal life, the end of our mortal life is a given regardless(no choice there) there is only a promise to GIVE something else, once that life has ended,, there is nothing after our mortal end for us to be threatened with TAKING from us(as in your example of a rapist threatening to take a life)

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Tue 06/21/11 01:20 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not No, God does NOT play favorites like that, and no good parent would. You've got it wrong, no parent would forever allow their children to be tortured without mercy, or let them die, much less author it all themselves because they have an ego complex and their kid didn't do exactly what they wanted. Such a parent would be renounced for it here, but if God does it it's ok? Bullcrap. eternal paradise, for even the 'worst' of us,, just for aknowledging and accepting the inheritance from Jesus what a TERRIBLE choice to give his creations,,,,, It can not truly be a free choice if the options are do it or die. As I said, it's spiritual rape, because you have a choice, but there's the threat hanging over your head if you don't do as you're told. Of the divine it's not. we just have to agree to disagree in your example , someone is taking something away that we have already, our MORTAL life there is no such threat to take away our mortal life, the end of our mortal life is a given regardless(no choice there) there is only a promise to GIVE something else, once that life has ended,, there is nothing after our mortal end for us to be threatened with TAKING from us(as in your example of a rapist threatening to take a life) But the idea of death is still held over our heads, how is that fair? Again, how can a choice freely be made if the options are: "do as I say.....or I will kill you eternally". It cannot be done, period.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 06/21/11 01:24 AM Edited by msharmony on Tue 06/21/11 01:25 AM
guess what happens when one 'does good' their whole life,, their rewards come ON EARTH, in their lifetime guess what happens when one 'does bad' their whole life, their consequences come ON EARTH, in their lifetime BUT AFTER that STAGE of existence, from the mortal birth to the MORTAL death,, there is an OPPORTUNITY to get a bonus , ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE and it comes with conditions just like the opportunity to go to Harvard does, or the opportunity for a teenager to get a new car from their parents this concept of just GIVING it because someone is 'good' and you 'love' them is more that of a spoiled child actually good is its own reward, it is a parents perogative then, to decide to add ADDITONAL Rewards or not No, God does NOT play favorites like that, and no good parent would. You've got it wrong, no parent would forever allow their children to be tortured without mercy, or let them die, much less author it all themselves because they have an ego complex and their kid didn't do exactly what they wanted. Such a parent would be renounced for it here, but if God does it it's ok? Bullcrap. eternal paradise, for even the 'worst' of us,, just for aknowledging and accepting the inheritance from Jesus what a TERRIBLE choice to give his creations,,,,, It can not truly be a free choice if the options are do it or die. As I said, it's spiritual rape, because you have a choice, but there's the threat hanging over your head if you don't do as you're told. Of the divine it's not. we just have to agree to disagree in your example , someone is taking something away that we have already, our MORTAL life there is no such threat to take away our mortal life, the end of our mortal life is a given regardless(no choice there) there is only a promise to GIVE something else, once that life has ended,, there is nothing after our mortal end for us to be threatened with TAKING from us(as in your example of a rapist threatening to take a life) But the idea of death is still held over our heads, how is that fair? Again, how can a choice freely be made if the options are: "do as I say.....or I will kill you eternally". It cannot be done, period. what other way do we know to die, other than eternally? isnt death SUPPOSED to be final, dont we kind of learn that 'scientifically' throughout our entire life? seems evolution theorists hang death over our heads, and scientists hold death over our heads,, if thats indeed the case but Ive never felt death as being held 'over my head' by anyone, Its just a fact of my mortal life and its a belief that God granted me an option(not a given, or a mandate, but an option/choice) to have life BEYOND my mortal life which SCIENCE tells me comes to a finite ending,,

Peter_Pan69 Joined Sun 08/23/09 Posts: 2781	Tue 06/21/11 01:25 AM
But the idea of death is still held over our heads, how is that fair? Again, how can a choice freely be made if the options are: "do as I say.....or I will kill you eternally". It cannot be done, period. I can't believe you still believe this lie. This goes back to our first convo when I told you to stop believing what others say. You are more than welcome to believe aeon means "eternal". Now show me where the scriptures say "eternal" or admit that you are wrong about this and the status of your closed-mindedness.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 06/21/11 01:29 AM
Sin cut us off from God. We all have a sin nature. Speak for yourself, I can NOT be responsible for what a man did 2,000 years ago. The idea that because one person supposedly erred, I have to carry the consequence of that mistake even when I had NOTHING to do with it and am totally innocent, is absolutely asinine and has no basis in logic and good sense. As such it cannot be true. God is with me all the time, with all of us in fact, no matter what happens. There's no hoops to jump through, no conditions, no fine print, that's all lies from man. God needs nothing except that we exist, anything else has been added by men for the purposes of control. Then who is Jesus to you, Kleisto...what was the purpose in his coming..and going to the cross for us ? Was it all in vain? No need to answer..just think about it.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 06/21/11 01:36 AM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 06/21/11 01:51 AM
"....thats not slavery, thats an INHERITANCE that we only have to agree to ACCEPT from the GRANTOR,,,' Msharmony said it perfectly. Nothing more needs to be added!!!

mg1959 Joined Thu 04/05/07 Posts: 7872	Tue 06/21/11 01:43 AM
6) Honestly I didn't really turn to this one. It's like God found me and not the other way around. The emotion of God taking out the bad and putting in the good is something that you never forget or even quite understand. For me at least. It's truly a conversion that takes place. Exactly It's a beautiful transition That can only happen to bad people in the first place. Otherwise you'd have no 'bad' to be taken out and replaced with 'good'. So where does that leave the people who are naturally 'good'? Do you know any?

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Tue 06/21/11 01:54 AM Edited by Kleisto on Tue 06/21/11 01:57 AM
But the idea of death is still held over our heads, how is that fair? Again, how can a choice freely be made if the options are: "do as I say.....or I will kill you eternally". It cannot be done, period. I can't believe you still believe this lie. This goes back to our first convo when I told you to stop believing what others say. You are more than welcome to believe aeon means "eternal". Now show me where the scriptures say "eternal" or admit that you are wrong about this and the status of your closed-mindedness. I know enough of what the Bible says to know it's utter bullcrap the majority of it. My own intellect tells me that. Even it doesn't say eternal, they cease to live yes? That's any better? I think not. And on closed-mindedness, all I will say is this. The difference between you and me is, if something doesn't make sense no matter how many times I try and make it make it sense, I don't make it make sense anyway just because. No, I accept then that it must be wrong, because I cannot justify it. And there's no threats hanging over me, if I choose "wrong". You though, you HAVE to make it make sense to live per your belief system, and insist that it makes sense even when shown how it doesn't. I submit it's you then that is closed minded, because you dismiss anything thrown at you that contradicts what you've been told. I on the other hand, will listen, but if it doesn't make sense even when I try to make it make sense, then I will simply conclude it is false and move on.

Peter_Pan69 Joined Sun 08/23/09 Posts: 2781	Tue 06/21/11 01:56 AM
6) Honestly I didn't really turn to this one. It's like God found me and not the other way around. The emotion of God taking out the bad and putting in the good is something that you never forget or even quite understand. For me at least. It's truly a conversion that takes place. Exactly It's a beautiful transition That can only happen to bad people in the first place. Otherwise you'd have no 'bad' to be taken out and replaced with 'good'. So where does that leave the people who are naturally 'good'? Do you know any? Good? Yes. There aren't many but they are easy to spot. IMO, most seem to be empaths. Perfect? None. (but I'm working on it)

Kleisto Joined Tue 05/13/08 Posts: 5704	Tue 06/21/11 01:56 AM
Sin cut us off from God. We all have a sin nature. Speak for yourself, I can NOT be responsible for what a man did 2,000 years ago. The idea that because one person supposedly erred, I have to carry the consequence of that mistake even when I had NOTHING to do with it and am totally innocent, is absolutely asinine and has no basis in logic and good sense. As such it cannot be true. God is with me all the time, with all of us in fact, no matter what happens. There's no hoops to jump through, no conditions, no fine print, that's all lies from man. God needs nothing except that we exist, anything else has been added by men for the purposes of control. Then who is Jesus to you, Kleisto...what was the purpose in his coming..and going to the cross for us ? Was it all in vain? No need to answer..just think about it. If Jesus existed at all, he and his story of what happened to him was used to base the Christian religion on as the centerpiece. Second, he may not have existed anyway, he may have been made up for that same purpose as I just said. Either way, I don't buy it.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 06/21/11 02:32 AM
In the sense of being "good enough to get to heaven" without having to accept Jesus as Saviour... then no... no one is good. Only God is Good. But there are many people out there, who have suffered terrible mental and emotional abuse as children ...... and adults too... who were told they were no good. Everyone is precious in God's sight...God loves us all.. and for those who sufffered this kind of abuse, ..no..you were not bad people. You are good people...created in God's very image..the apple of his eye...wonderfully and fearfully made. You are Beautiful people....God never made any junk!!! And there is good in everyone...and good people everywhere. BUT ... no matter how good a person is,or how kind ,or how sweet ,or how precious in God's sight.... WE ...ALL ...STILL... NEED... A.... SAVIOUR !!! NO MAN IS GOOD ENOUGH TO COME TO GOD ALONE..... WE CAN ONLY COME TO GOD THRU JESUS. JESUS ALONE.

Peter_Pan69 Joined Sun 08/23/09 Posts: 2781	Tue 06/21/11 03:44 AM
But the idea of death is still held over our heads, how is that fair? Again, how can a choice freely be made if the options are: "do as I say.....or I will kill you eternally". It cannot be done, period. I can't believe you still believe this lie. This goes back to our first convo when I told you to stop believing what others say. You are more than welcome to believe aeon means "eternal". Now show me where the scriptures say "eternal" or admit that you are wrong about this and the status of your closed-mindedness. I know enough of what the Bible says to know it's utter bullcrap the majority of it. My own intellect tells me that. Even it doesn't say eternal, they cease to live yes? That's any better? I think not. So we end up getting to the crux of the thread title... You trust your own intellect when you refuse to research the meaning of the several mistranslations? You still haven't responded as to question of "hell". How about looking into the root word from which "virgin" was derived? So now where do you get the notion that "they cease to live"? And how is it that you think you have the authority to imply that's what I think? OK, Imma gonna use yur intellectual thought process (logic) to prove you wrong... "You believe the Bible says that one must accept Jesus to be saved, so everyone who accepts Him is a shoo-in for admittance to heaven. The Bible also says that every knee will bow and every tounge confess Jesus as Lord of Lords and King of Kings... So everyone gets saved, PERIOD! You lose the debate... I'm open to other explanations if you could make it make sense, but you can't so I'm right" And on closed-mindedness, all I will say is this. The difference between you and me is, if something doesn't make sense no matter how many times I try and make it make it sense, I don't make it make sense anyway just because. No, I accept then that it must be wrong, because I cannot justify it. And there's no threats hanging over me, if I choose "wrong". The difference between you and me is that I'm an empath. I can relate quite well to all trains of thought. So yes, I can make it make sense, I can make anything make "sense"... But I'm not making the Bible make sense, I making the errors known. Once they are known, the Bible makes sense on it's own. Being an empath, I know how this post will make you feel. Just let go of the anger, fear and shame and your mind will become sooo much clearer. You though, you HAVE to make it make sense to live per your belief system, and insist that it makes sense even when shown how it doesn't. I submit it's you then that is closed minded, because you dismiss anything thrown at you that contradicts what you've been told. I on the other hand, will listen, but if it doesn't make sense even when I try to make it make sense, then I will simply conclude it is false and move on. You don't "get it"... I don't "HAVE" to make the Bible make sense... It already does... When have you ever shown it doesn't make sense? All you've done is deny other explanations, you haven't once used scripture to back up your claims. A good read about some common mistranslations (imo) "I'd believe you if you could convince me, but you can't"

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 06/21/11 04:26 AM
But the idea of death is still held over our heads, how is that fair? Again, how can a choice freely be made if the options are: "do as I say.....or I will kill you eternally". It cannot be done, period. Kinda reminds me of a rescuer throwing out a lifeline to a drowning person in a flood...... and the person responds by saying, "how dare you hold the idea of death over my head by expecting me to grab on to your friggin lifeline ,or else I perish..... it's just not fair I tell ya..... Don't you think I should have a choice in the matter, as to how I should keep myself from drowning here? What am I ... your slave that I have no other choice but to grab on to YOUR lifeline? Don't cha have something better, huh? It's just not fair, I tell ya!!!

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Tue 06/21/11 10:06 AM
6) Honestly I didn't really turn to this one. It's like God found me and not the other way around. The emotion of God taking out the bad and putting in the good is something that you never forget or even quite understand. For me at least. It's truly a conversion that takes place. Exactly It's a beautiful transition That can only happen to bad people in the first place. Otherwise you'd have no 'bad' to be taken out and replaced with 'good'. So where does that leave the people who are naturally 'good'? Do you know any? Yes, I've met plenty of naturally good people throughout my entire life and I personally consider myself to be one of them. This is why these biblical stories make no sense to me. In order for them to be true I would necessarily need to be an inherently bad person who is knowingly and willfully rejecting my creator, which is utter hogwash. It's clearly a false charge and thus it must necessarily be a false dogma. If there was some sort of infinitely wise and benevolent supreme being it certainly wouldn't convince me of its wisdom or its benevolence via the gory and totally outrageous fables of the ancient Hebrews. Those people supported male chauvinism and claim that their God supported that too. They claim that God told them to murder the Canaanites and to kill their women and children without mercy. No supposedly supreme being is going to convince me of its benevolence and infinite wisdom by supporting such ignorance. A God who plans out the crucifixion of his son to "pay" for the sins of mankind? Oh PLEASE! That wouldn't convince me of the all-wise benevolent nature of a supposed creator, that would only serve to convince me that he's totally insane, inept, and downright evil. I could personally come up with more positive and constructive solutions to the problems in these biblical stories, in every single case. In order to believe in this biblical picture of God, I'd have no choice but to believe that God is far less intelligent and wise than myself. That may sound arrogant to you, but that's probably because you are thinking that these stories have some validity and therefore you assume that I'm claiming to be smarter than "God". But that's not the case at all. From my perspective this is no different from someone saying that they are smarter than Zeus. These are just fables of man-made images of "God". No REAL GOD would have behaved so poorly. And that how I know that these stories necessarily must be false. Besides, we now know that the Bible is based on a lie. The very foundational charge of the Bible is that mankind's so-called "fall from grace" is what brought death, disease, and imperfections into the world like thorns growing on plants. We know that's false. Death, disease and thorns on plants existed long before mankind ever showed up on the planet. The bible has been PROVEN to be a lie! So why anyone continues discuss these ancient fables as if they could still have some sort of merit is beyond me. The biblical fables have been exposed to be every bit as false as Greek Mythology. It's a done deal. Let's move forward and get past these archaic ideas of gods that require blood sacrifices before they can be appeased. No genuinely divine, intelligent, benevolent creator is going to be so crass. Yes, that's my honest sincere opinion. The Hebrew picture of a God who requires blood sacrifices to pay for sins is every bit as false and fictional as the Greek God Zeus who could also be appeased by blood sacrifices. It's the same sick superstitious mentality. Period. How anyone could believe that a supposedly all-wise, all-benevolent creator could be so crass is beyond me. If that were indeed our reality we'd be in far worse shape than if mere atheism were true. Yes, I would far rather atheism were true, than to believe in a God as ignorant and crude as is depicted in the ancient Hebrew folklore. Absolutely. I'm sorry if these truths sound harsh to you. But continuing to support these rude and crude ideas of such ignorant ancient superstitions and fables of gods has to stop sometime. I personally feel that this nonsense is way overdue. Suicide bombers are blowing themselves and other innocent people up everyday, because of their belief in these kinds of ignorant pictures of "gods". Do you realize that people are STILL stoning "sinners" to death in places today BECAUSE of these ancient fables? Do you realize that people are STILL being charged with "Blaspheme" for merely speaking out against these utterly absurd fables. If I were in some Arab country speaking out against the Quran I could be charged with "blaspheme" and put to DEATH for my views. This kind of nonsense has to stop. Let's just get past these insane fables about Gods who hate heathens and blasphemers and lust for blood sacrifices before they can forgive people of their sins. Do you HONESTLY believe that our creator is truly like that? It seems to me that you'd need to have some really low expectations of a creator to believe that. I expect that my creator has, at the very least, moral values that surpass my own. And the Biblical stories of a so-called "god" simply fall far short of that ideal. So why would I want to believe in a "god" that isn't even as benevolent or as wise as myself? That makes no sense to me at all.