Topic: Do We care If Prisons are overcrowded?
msharmony's photo
Wed 06/15/11 06:38 AM


the question is,, what is the purpose of prisons and is there evidence of it serving its purpose



for the most part, prisons serve but two purposes. one, to remove criminals from society. two, to deter further crime. and it seems to be working. as prison populations have soured over the last few decades, violent crime rates have been on a steady decline. do overcrowded prisons PROVE that prisons reduce crime? of course not but it's hard not to see the correlation.



I guess numbers can correlate to alot of things

the violent crime rate of today is roughly the same as it was in 1974 although the imprisonment rates have increased, so Im not sure about the deterrent correlation/argument

what we saw was a steady increase in vcr from 1970 to 1990 and then back to 1970 levels most recently, in other words, a fluxuation,,but no conclusive change relating to increasing prison population,,

what changed then, in the 1990s?

I think, technology , the economic environment, educational attainment, and the social demographic (age, class) of the country,,


the vast majority of our 'criminals' are undereducated and/or impoverished,,I think we need to look into preventative measures that seek to correct or lessen THOSE statistics, instead of just catching the problem by the tail end, after the fact, and feeling victorious,,,



Ladylid2012's photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:03 AM


It's all about money, everything is.

That and society's justification and thirst for revenge...

We are as barbaric as ever, nothing has been learned!!

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:17 AM

With less than 5 percent of the world population, the U.S. imprisons more than 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the world.


So you are unhappy that we actually lock up criminals? Other counties with lower prison populations also have higher crime rates. So the choice is higher crime or larger prisons and you choose higher crime?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Honestly, that makes no sense to me.

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:39 AM

More than 60 percent of U.S. prisoners are people of color. Seventy percent of those being sentenced under the three strikes law in California — which requires mandatory sentences of 25 years to life after three felony convictions — are people of color. Nationally, 39 percent of African-American men in their 20s are in prison, on probation or on parole.


First, your statistics are wrong, blacks make up slightly more than 40% of the US prison population as of 2009.

But I have to ask, how is this racism?

28.3% of all crime in the USA is committed by blacks.

Blacks, especially black men have the highest rate of recidivism of all ethnic groups.

Is it a surprise given those statistics that more blacks are in prison?


In major urban areas one-half of Black men have criminal records.


How can this be blamed on the society? If you remove blacks with two parent homes, you get a crime rate that is identical to whites. The problem is single mothers or black children raised by their grandmothers. Both parents make important contributions to the child's well-being. Children (regardless of race) are 70% more likely to commit crimes if they are raised by a single mother. It's not race, it's not economics, it's how the children are raised.

Ladylid2012's photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:44 AM


More than 60 percent of U.S. prisoners are people of color. Seventy percent of those being sentenced under the three strikes law in California — which requires mandatory sentences of 25 years to life after three felony convictions — are people of color. Nationally, 39 percent of African-American men in their 20s are in prison, on probation or on parole.


First, your statistics are wrong, blacks make up slightly more than 40% of the US prison population as of 2009.

But I have to ask, how is this racism?

28.3% of all crime in the USA is committed by blacks.

Blacks, especially black men have the highest rate of recidivism of all ethnic groups.

Is it a surprise given those statistics that more blacks are in prison?


In major urban areas one-half of Black men have criminal records.


How can this be blamed on the society? If you remove blacks with two parent homes, you get a crime rate that is identical to whites. The problem is single mothers or black children raised by their grandmothers. Both parents make important contributions to the child's well-being. Children (regardless of race) are 70% more likely to commit crimes if they are raised by a single mother. It's not race, it's not economics, it's how the children are raised.


70% is very high...where are you getting this information?
How would it be explained that one child gets in trouble, the others don't in a single mother home? There were all raised the same...

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:52 AM

70% is very high...where are you getting this information?


http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-wc67.html

Nearly 70 percent of juveniles in state reform institutions come from fatherless homes, as do 43 percent of prison inmates.(4) Research indicates a direct correlation between crime rates and the number of single-parent families in a neighborhood.(5)



How would it be explained that one child gets in trouble, the others don't in a single mother home? There were all raised the same...


70% != 100%

Ladylid2012's photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:55 AM


Then it sounds like the men need to step up and father their
children....ohwell

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:55 AM



Then it sounds like the men need to step up and father their
children....ohwell


And women need to stop spreading their legs for losers.

Ladylid2012's photo
Wed 06/15/11 09:57 AM




Then it sounds like the men need to step up and father their
children....ohwell


And women need to stop spreading their legs for losers.


well, that's kinda after the fact isn't it?

once the kid is here..the 'loser' needs to be a parent

according to the stats, that would help in solving the problem

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 10:01 AM





Then it sounds like the men need to step up and father their
children....ohwell


And women need to stop spreading their legs for losers.


well, that's kinda after the fact isn't it?

once the kid is here..the 'loser' needs to be a parent

according to the stats, that would help in solving the problem


Women can be proactive, men can be reactive. Both can help to solve the problem. Why do you only feel the need to point out how men can help solve the issue?

Ladylid2012's photo
Wed 06/15/11 10:04 AM






Then it sounds like the men need to step up and father their
children....ohwell


And women need to stop spreading their legs for losers.


well, that's kinda after the fact isn't it?

once the kid is here..the 'loser' needs to be a parent

according to the stats, that would help in solving the problem


Women can be proactive, men can be reactive. Both can help to solve the problem. Why do you only feel the need to point out how men can help solve the issue?


Because they can..

InvictusV's photo
Wed 06/15/11 10:18 AM



And all these years I've been pushing for prison reform to include socialization programs and some kind of skills development so they could get out and stay out.

There are two parts to the article below. I expect some may not have the capacity to understand it all. But there are others here more capable.

We thought all the good paying, non-skilled labor jobs were shipped out of country to be done by low paid workers.

We were wrong - they stayed right here, MILLIONS OF JOBS and a slave labor work force is doing those jobs for pennies often with great physical risk to themselves.

Who makes up this vast slave work force - prisoners, millions of them, and it would definatly be wrong to think all these poeple are the epitomy of what someeone here refers to as hardcore criminals.

As an aside, not much information is given here about the quality of medical health care that prisoners receive. I have read two books that I can equate with the health care in prisons, one was a book about the experiments performed on the prisoners in Hitlers death camps and the other book was Cancer Ward by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

The anaimals in the zoo have better health care than a good portion of our prisons.



http://www.workers.org/2011/us/pentagon_0609/

PART 1
The Pentagon & slave labor in U.S. prisons
By Sara Flounders

Published Jun 6, 2011 8:46 PM

Prisoners earning 23 cents an hour in U.S. federal prisons are manufacturing high-tech electronic components for Patriot Advanced Capability 3 missiles, launchers for TOW (Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided) anti-tank missiles, and other guided missile systems. A March article by journalist and financial researcher Justin Rohrlich of World in Review is worth a closer look at the full implications of this ominous development. (minyanville.com)
The expanding use of prison industries, which pay slave wages, as a way to increase profits for giant military corporations is a frontal attack on the rights of all workers.

Prison labor — with no union protection, overtime pay, vacation days, pensions, benefits, health and safety protection, or Social Security withholding — also makes complex components for McDonnell Douglas/Boeing’s F-15 fighter aircraft, the General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16, and Bell/Textron’s Cobra helicopter. Prison labor produces night-vision goggles, body armor, camouflage uniforms, radio and communication devices, and lighting systems and components for 30-mm to 300-mm battleship anti-aircraft guns, along with land mine sweepers and electro-optical equipment for the BAE Systems Bradley Fighting Vehicle’s laser rangefinder. Prisoners recycle toxic electronic equipment and overhaul military vehicles.
Labor in federal prisons is contracted out by UNICOR, previously known as Federal Prison Industries, a quasi-public, for-profit corporation run by the Bureau of Prisons. In 14 prison factories, more than 3,000 prisoners manufacture electronic equipment for land, sea and airborne communication. UNICOR is now the U.S. government’s 39th largest contractor, with 110 factories at 79 federal penitentiaries.

The majority of UNICOR’s products and services are on contract to orders from the Department of Defense. Giant multinational corporations purchase parts assembled at some of the lowest labor rates in the world, then resell the finished weapons components at the highest rates of profit. For example, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon Corporation subcontract components, then assemble and sell advanced weapons systems to the Pentagon.

Increased profits, unhealthy workplaces
However, the Pentagon is not the only buyer. U.S. corporations are the world’s largest arms dealers, while weapons and aircraft are the largest U.S. export. The U.S. State Department, Department of Defense and diplomats pressure NATO members and dependent countries around the world into multibillion-dollar weapons purchases that generate further corporate profits, often leaving many countries mired in enormous debt.

But the fact that the capitalist state has found yet another way to drastically undercut union workers’ wages and ensure still higher profits to military corporations — whose weapons wreak such havoc around the world — is an ominous development.

According to CNN Money, the U.S. highly skilled and well-paid “aerospace workforce has shrunk by 40 percent in the past 20 years. Like many other industries, the defense sector has been quietly outsourcing production (and jobs) to cheaper labor markets overseas.” (Feb. 24) It seems that with prison labor, these jobs are also being outsourced domestically.

Meanwhile, dividends and options to a handful of top stockholders and CEO compensation packages at top military corporations exceed the total payment of wages to the more than 23,000 imprisoned workers who produce UNICOR parts.

The prison work is often dangerous, toxic and unprotected. At FCC Victorville, a federal prison located at an old U.S. airbase, prisoners clean, overhaul and reassemble tanks and military vehicles returned from combat and coated in toxic spent ammunition, depleted uranium dust and chemicals.

A federal lawsuit by prisoners, food service workers and family members at FCI Marianna, a minimum security women’s prison in Florida, cited that toxic dust containing lead, cadmium, mercury and arsenic poisoned those who worked at UNICOR’s computer and electronic recycling factory.

Prisoners there worked covered in dust, without safety equipment, protective gear, air filtration or masks. The suit explained that the toxic dust caused severe damage to nervous and reproductive systems, lung damage, bone disease, kidney failure, blood clots, cancers, anxiety, headaches, fatigue, memory lapses, skin lesions, and circulatory and respiratory problems. This is one of eight federal prison recycling facilities — employing 1,200 prisoners — run by UNICOR.

After years of complaints the Justice Department’s Office of the Inspector General and the Federal Occupational Health Service concurred in October 2008 that UNICOR has jeopardized the lives and safety of untold numbers of prisoners and staff. (Prison Legal News, Feb. 17, 2009)

Racism & U.S. prisons
The U.S. imprisons more people per capita than any country in the world. With less than 5 percent of the world population, the U.S. imprisons more than 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the world.
There are more than 2.3 million prisoners in federal, state and local prisons in the U.S. Twice as many people are under probation and parole. Many tens of thousands of other prisoners include undocumented immigrants facing deportation, prisoners awaiting sentencing and youthful offenders in categories considered reform or detention.

The racism that pervades every aspect of life in capitalist society — from jobs, income and housing to education and opportunity — is most brutally reflected by who is caught up in the U.S. prison system.

More than 60 percent of U.S. prisoners are people of color. Seventy percent of those being sentenced under the three strikes law in California — which requires mandatory sentences of 25 years to life after three felony convictions — are people of color. Nationally, 39 percent of African-American men in their 20s are in prison, on probation or on parole. The U.S. imprisons more people than South Africa did under apartheid. (Linn Washington, “Incarceration Nation”)
The U.S. prison population is not only the largest in the world — it is relentlessly growing. The U.S. prison population is more than five times what it was 30 years ago.

In 1980, when Ronald Reagan became president, there were 400,000 prisoners in the U.S. Today the number exceeds 2.3 million. In California the prison population soared from 23,264 in 1980 to 170,000 in 2010. The Pennsylvania prison population climbed from 8,243 to 51,487 in those same years. There are now more African-American men in prison, on probation or on parole than were enslaved in 1850, before the Civil War began, according to Law Professor Michelle Alexander in the book “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness.”

Today a staggering 1-in-100 adults in the U.S. are living behind bars. But this crime, which breaks families and destroys lives, is not evenly distributed. In major urban areas one-half of Black men have criminal records. This means life-long, legalized discrimination in student loans, financial assistance, access to public housing, mortgages, the right to vote and, of course, the possibility of being hired for a job.

Next: Slave labor, private prisons and the prison-industrial complex.



Your idea is reactive. Someone commits a felony and they are screwed regardless of what type of training they get while in prison.

There needs to be a proactive approach and it starts with the parents. If the parents don't give a f*$k what their kids are doing then the blame falls on them.

There are 2 million people in prison.

That means there are 308 million not in prison.

You can blame whatever you like as the reasons why, but criminality is a choice and it is accepted in certain segments of the population. That's the way it is.


the question is,, what is the purpose of prisons and is there evidence of it serving its purpose

prison is largely filled with 'poor criminals', and too often the 'rich' criminals have the lawyers and representation to keep them out of prison

so its not that certain segments 'accept' criminality, its that our system 'accepts' certain types of criminality over others

and because once someone gets the label 'criminal', whether it be because they drove on a suspended license or stole a candy bar,,,we wish to group them all together as not as deserving or human as any other,,,,





the purpose?

To keep people like Charles Manson away from the civilized populous.

I agree that a poor person with a public defender has less of a chance to use the system in their favor than a rich person. No doubt. That is a systemic problem and not the result of the poor person being innocent and still sent to prison simply because they were poor.

When you look at something like the Duke Lacrosse case you see that the only reason they didn't go to jail was because their parents could afford a rigorous defense. Should I feel it was unfair that they were let go because they were rich kids?

There are segments of the population that accept criminality. I think the history of the mafia or white supremacy or the blood and crips or any other criminal enterprise shows complicity within a certain community that overlooks the criminality if it doesn't directly impose itself on them.

That is a fact.


jrbogie's photo
Wed 06/15/11 11:50 AM
Edited by jrbogie on Wed 06/15/11 11:57 AM

violent crime rate of today is roughly the same as it was in 1974 although the imprisonment rates have increased, so Im not sure about the deterrent correlation/argument



don't know where your numbers came from but here's the fbi's. year/population of u.s./number of violent crimes:


1974 211,392,000 10,253,400

2009 307,006,550 10,639,369


a near fifty percent increase in population with virtually no increase in violent crime TOTALS. were the crime rate the same today as in 74' there should have been an additional five million violent crimes committed in 09' but that didn't happen. the only thing on the rise as regards violent crime is the prison population.

msharmony's photo
Wed 06/15/11 11:53 AM


More than 60 percent of U.S. prisoners are people of color. Seventy percent of those being sentenced under the three strikes law in California — which requires mandatory sentences of 25 years to life after three felony convictions — are people of color. Nationally, 39 percent of African-American men in their 20s are in prison, on probation or on parole.


First, your statistics are wrong, blacks make up slightly more than 40% of the US prison population as of 2009.

But I have to ask, how is this racism?

28.3% of all crime in the USA is committed by blacks.

Blacks, especially black men have the highest rate of recidivism of all ethnic groups.

Is it a surprise given those statistics that more blacks are in prison?


In major urban areas one-half of Black men have criminal records.


How can this be blamed on the society? If you remove blacks with two parent homes, you get a crime rate that is identical to whites. The problem is single mothers or black children raised by their grandmothers. Both parents make important contributions to the child's well-being. Children (regardless of race) are 70% more likely to commit crimes if they are raised by a single mother. It's not race, it's not economics, it's how the children are raised.



you bring up good points,

just as interesting though, is the sentencing disparities that can hardly NOT be seen as classist and by extension,,racist

justice is indeed bought in this country(not stating that it ONLY happens here, just making a statement that it happens here), and when you have classism so closely tied into race , you have an inherent racial disparity in the justice system

msharmony's photo
Wed 06/15/11 12:00 PM
Edited by msharmony on Wed 06/15/11 12:00 PM


violent crime rate of today is roughly the same as it was in 1974 although the imprisonment rates have increased, so Im not sure about the deterrent correlation/argument



don't know where your numbers came from but here's the fbi's. year/population of u.s./number of violent crimes:


1974 211,392,000 10,253,400

2009 307,006,550 10,639,369


a near fifty percent increase in population with virtually no increase in violent crime TOTALS. were the crime rate the same today as in 74' there should have been an additional five million violent crimes committed in 09' but that didn't happen. the only thing on the rise as regards violent crime is the prison population.



the violent crime rate (violent crime per 100,000 population) can be found at the UCR site

in 1973 it was 417.4 and in 2009 (no numbers for last year) it was 429.4

if the link works, it will show the fluxuation going both UP and then DOWN , over those years....

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm

jrbogie's photo
Wed 06/15/11 12:37 PM



violent crime rate of today is roughly the same as it was in 1974 although the imprisonment rates have increased, so Im not sure about the deterrent correlation/argument



don't know where your numbers came from but here's the fbi's. year/population of u.s./number of violent crimes:


1974 211,392,000 10,253,400

2009 307,006,550 10,639,369


a near fifty percent increase in population with virtually no increase in violent crime TOTALS. were the crime rate the same today as in 74' there should have been an additional five million violent crimes committed in 09' but that didn't happen. the only thing on the rise as regards violent crime is the prison population.



the violent crime rate (violent crime per 100,000 population) can be found at the UCR site

in 1973 it was 417.4 and in 2009 (no numbers for last year) it was 429.4

if the link works, it will show the fluxuation going both UP and then DOWN , over those years....

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm



oops, my bad. my numbers where the total numbers of ALL CRIMES not just violent crime. of course many nonviolent criminals are incarcerated as well.

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 02:32 PM

you bring up good points,

just as interesting though, is the sentencing disparities that can hardly NOT be seen as classist and by extension,,racist

justice is indeed bought in this country(not stating that it ONLY happens here, just making a statement that it happens here), and when you have classism so closely tied into race , you have an inherent racial disparity in the justice system


There is no evidence that the longer sentences have anything to do with race or "class".

As already noted, blacks have a high recidivism rate, which means that they will progressively receive longer sentences.

Convicted criminals are less likely to be given a prison sentence if they are currently supporting dependents and/or are attending college. The percentage of blacks who attend college and are actively supporting dependents is lower than for whites.

no photo
Wed 06/15/11 02:50 PM
I've already said it once, but I'll say it again: Legalize all drugs to eliminate 50% of crime. While you are at it, legalize prostitution and make non-licensed drug dealing and prostitution major felonies.

msharmony's photo
Wed 06/15/11 03:53 PM


you bring up good points,

just as interesting though, is the sentencing disparities that can hardly NOT be seen as classist and by extension,,racist

justice is indeed bought in this country(not stating that it ONLY happens here, just making a statement that it happens here), and when you have classism so closely tied into race , you have an inherent racial disparity in the justice system


There is no evidence that the longer sentences have anything to do with race or "class".

As already noted, blacks have a high recidivism rate, which means that they will progressively receive longer sentences.

Convicted criminals are less likely to be given a prison sentence if they are currently supporting dependents and/or are attending college. The percentage of blacks who attend college and are actively supporting dependents is lower than for whites.



there is plenty of research concerning racial disparity , actually

even in your example, there is INHERENT classism racism

if class/race play any part in ARRESTS And PROSECUTIONS (which they do), than they play a part in the recidivism rate

as to the college thing, IM not sure where that comes from,,,but if that were even true,,,,when did attending college or having a family play into sentencing? do you think that would be the case if judges and lawyers werent college grads? Do you think non college students would automatically be seen as more dispensable?

if so, is it intellectually honest then, to presume that possibly other 'similarities' between the collective justice system and those who come before it , may give those who 'fit in' better, a better outcome?


msharmony's photo
Wed 06/15/11 03:55 PM

I've already said it once, but I'll say it again: Legalize all drugs to eliminate 50% of crime. While you are at it, legalize prostitution and make non-licensed drug dealing and prostitution major felonies.


I would go even further and say we should decide to have government involved in what people do to their bodies (prostitution, drug use), or we shouldnt (abortion)

its unproductive and unjust to try to run it both ways,,,

I wouldnt say legalize, because I dont want these things in any way supported or encouraged by government, ,but I would agree to no longer make it illegal,,,and just stay out of it,,,