What is the possibility that Yahweh is an Egyptian God worshipped by Egyptians that was later taken or chosen or invented by individuals to create a new belief system to conquer all the other Gods creating one of the first (if not the first) monotheistic religions in the world.

Just imagine at the time (you as a scribe or farmer) had to worship so many different gods each day to receive blessings or help for their needs and suddenly a trend was created to where one only has to worship one god for all the wishes. What a relief that must have been at the time unless you were of course threatened to death for even attempting to believe in such a belief system in the first place.

I am just trying to see this in a historical reference on the transition to this phase and how it was at the time. It is a interesting part of history!

What do you believe to be true?

I think, being politically correct AND logical, anything we have not seen for ourself is possible under some dimension or circumstance

it is possible ufos came and built the pyramids, I was not there to see it done so I cant say its NOT possible,,but I dont personally consider it probable anymore that I consider it probable that YhWh was created and maintained all this time just to make worship simpler,,,,

Actually, your question is similar to one I have asked myself for quite some time and the biggest problem I had in believing Jesus was the Son of God.

If you look at the story of Jesus and compare it to Hercules, there are a whole lot of similarities. Son of a God born of a woman. Has supernatural powers.

Took me a few decades before I could reconcile that thought.

It wasn't until I realized the story of Jesus is laid out in the Old Testament thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Greeks would have heard these stories. So, I believe your question is correct but kind of upside down. It isn't that the monotheistic God was created from the Greek gods it is the Greek gods were created to explain Jesus' coming. At least that is my take on it anyway. Or at least, the story of Jesus was incorporated into an already existing belief structure.

Pure speculation on my part. Feel free to rip it apart.

That sounds logical also. So many possibilities available. :)

Sounds logical to me!

To begin with let me explain that I would not wish to "rip it apart" for the sake of denying you your beliefs or conclusions. However, if you are asking me to "rip it apart" to simply show why I don't accept this view I will gladly oblige.

From my perspective the story of Jesus simply was not laid out in the Old Testament thousands of years before Jesus was born. That is an incorrect assumption from my perspective.

Why?

Well, for many reason.

First off, I don't see any scriptures that actually lay out the coming of a messiah in any genuinely coherent way. Just about everything that people point to in that regard appears to me to be extremely vague and not certainly not convincing, IMHO.

Secondly, the few places where predictions are being made they are being made of a messiah that will become the KING of the Jews and be given the THRONE of David. Well, the Jesus described in the New Testament certainly never fulfilled that prophecy to be sure.

So all the prophecies associated with "The King Is coming" simply cannot be applied to the story of Jesus. Jesus never became a King.

In fact, he never even held any position of social authority at all.

Thirdly, and this quite crucial, the authors of the New Testament clearly had the Old Testament writings right there on their desk as they were writing up these stories. The reason being that they themselves are trying to convince their readers that specific prophecies were indeed "fulfilled".


But WAIT! They are the ones who are writing the stories! And they have a clear agenda to convince their readers that this Jesus they are writing about is indeed the promised messiah.

They read in the Old Testament that the messiah will be "sold" for 30 pieces of silver. So they write into their account of Jesus that he was "betrayed" for 30 pieces of silver.

BINGO! Prophesy has been "fulfilled"!

But wait a minute?

All we have to go by is the words of these authors who are trying to convince us that Jesus "fulfilled" all these so-called prophecies!

They are sitting there writing up these stories with the Old Testament right there on their desk! They just look up what needs to be "fulfiled" and write it into the story. But there is no independent evidence that any of these details that they claim about Jesus ever actually happened!

All you have is their WORD! And they could be lying! After all they are mere mortal men who have an AGENDA! Their agenda is crystal clear, they want to convince you that the man they are writing about was the promised messiah.

Moreover, have you ever asked yourself HOW IN THE WORLD could these authors have overheard every conversation and interaction that Jesus and his disciples had with all these people.

Our best reporters today couldn't uncover that many details about a case they're working on. And today they even have the benefit of cameras, videos, tape recorders, and lots of "independent evidence" gathered by other people who also have cameras, videos, tape recorders, etc.

These guys who wrote the New Testament would have had to have been a fly on Jesus' nose in order to hear and see all they claim to be reporting!

And then to get all of that perfectly correct verbatim just from memory? That itself is extremely impractical and unbelievable, IMHO.

Also keep in mind that Mark originated these stories, Matthew and Luke simply rehashed them. So you don't truly have three different "original" accounts. What you have is one rumor being retold by other authors (and those other authors even had to embellish the stories, they couldn't leave well enough alone).

So when I hear someone say, "the story of Jesus is laid out in the Old Testament thousands of years before Jesus was born.", all I can think of is that someone else bought into the scam.

You could do the same thing writing about someone today. Just make up a bunch of stuff about them that will fulfill some prophecies and claim that they have all been fufilled in your story.

~~~~~

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

The Gospels say that the voice of God came from a cloud in the sky and spoke to a multitude of people, "This is my beloved son: Hear him".

Yet there is absolutely no independent historical reports of anyone hearing this "voice of God speaking from the sky"

The only place we find this written is in these gospels.

The Gospels say that there was a great earthquake when Jesus rose from the tome and that earthquake also shook open the graves of a multitude of saints who were also resurrected. And those saint supposedly went into the Holy City of Jerusalem to show themselves to the people there.

Yet there is absolutely no independent historical reports of anyone seeing a multitude of previously deceased saints revealing themselves to people in Jerusalem.

The only place we find this written is in these gospels.

These Gospels have Jesus himself going around the countryside with huge followings people. These people are witness to Jesus healing all manner of sickness and even raising people from the dead.

Yet there is absolutely no independent historical reports of anyone having seen a man going around the countryside with huge followings of people healing all manner of sickness and raising people from the dead.

The only place we find this written is in these gospels.

~~~~~~~~~

Now you're going to say to me, "the story of Jesus is laid out in the Old Testament thousands of years before Jesus was born."

What story?

The story written in the New Testament?

So?

Why should I be impressed by that?

There is absolutely no independent historical reports to be found anywhere that support any of these outrageous claims of supernatural events and miracles that are written in the New Testament.

So why should anyone believe those stories?

That's the real question right there.

The idea that the stories themselves lay out things to make it appear that they are speaking of a promise messiah is not impressive. Anyone could write such a story.

The real question is, "Why should anyone believe these stories when there is absolutely no independent historical reports to back up any of the outrageous claims of supernatural events, etc?

That's the real question right there.

You're going to put all your eggs in a basket written by a handful of authors who have a clear agenda to convince you of something, when in fact there is absolutely no independent historical reports to back up their claims?

That's certainly a faith-based belief to be sure.

I will grant you that much.

~~~~~~~~~~~

P.S. Please keep in mind, that I did not post this to "knock" your beliefs, but rather to simply explain why I don't find it impressive that, ""the story of Jesus is laid out in the Old Testament thousands of years before Jesus was born."

That's simply not impressive, IMHO.

And you did say, "Feel free to rip it apart."

So I did.

..Prophecies of Isaiah - written 778 years before Christ was born ..

Old Testament Prophecy ...New Testament Fulfillment


The Jews would reject the Messiah. Isaiah 6:9-10 John 12:37-40


The Messiah would teach in parables. Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:13-15

The Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Luke 1:34-35

The Messiah would be called Immanuel, God With Us. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21-23

The Messiah would be God. Isaiah 7:14 John 12:45
1 Timothy 3:16

The Messiah would have wisdom from His childhood. Isaiah 7:15 Luke 2:40

The Messiah would be a Stumbling Stone for the Jews. Isaiah 8:14 Matthew 21:43-44

The Messiah would minister in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:12-17

The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 9:1-2 Luke 2:28-32

The birth of the Messiah. Isaiah 9:6 Luke 2:11

The Messiah would be the Son of God. Isaiah 9:6 Luke 1:35


The Messiah would be both man and God. Isaiah 9:6 John 10:30
John 12:45
John 14:7

The Messiah would be from everlasting. Isaiah 9:6 Colossians 1:17

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Jesse. Isaiah 11:1 Luke 3:23-32

The Messiah would grow up in Nazareth. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:21-23

The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon Him. Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 3:16-17

The Messiah would have the Spirit of knowledge and wisdom. Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 13:54

The Messiah would have the Spirit of knowledge and fear of God. Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 11:27 John 15:10


The Messiah would have a quick understanding in the fear of the LORD. Isaiah 11:3 Luke 2:46-47
Luke 2:41-49
Luke 4:31-32
John 14:31

The Messiah would not judge on the basis of outward appearance. Isaiah 11:3 John 2:24-25
John 7:24
John 5:30

The Messiah would judge the poor with righteousness. Isaiah 11:4 Mark 12:41-44
Luke 13:30


The Messiah would come from the lineage of Jesse. Isaiah 11:10 Luke 3:23-32

The Messiah would come for all people. Isaiah 11:10 Acts 13:47-48


The Messiah would have the key of David. Isaiah 22:22 Revelation 3:7


The Messiah would defeat death (sin). Isaiah 25:8 Revelation 1:18
2 Timothy 1:10

Several Saints would rise to life at the resurrection of the Messiah. Isaiah 26:19 Matthew 27:52-53

The Messiah would be the cornerstone. Isaiah 28:16 1 Peter 2:4-6

The Messiah would heal the blind. Isaiah 35:5 Mark 10:51-52
John 9:1-7

The Messiah would heal the deaf. Isaiah 35:5 Mark 7:32-35

The Messiah would heal the lame. Isaiah 35:6 Matthew 12:10-13
John 5:5-9

The Messiah would heal the dumb. Isaiah 35:6 Matthew 9:32-33
Matthew 15:30

The forerunner (John The Baptist) of the Messiah would live in the wilderness. Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:1-4

The forerunner (John The Baptist) would prepare people for the coming of the Messiah. Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:11
Luke 1:17
John 1:29
John 3:28


The Messiah would be God. Isaiah 40:3 John 10:30
Philippians 2:5-7

The Messiah would be as a shepherd. Isaiah 40:11 John 10:11
Mark 9:36-37

The Messiah would be God's messenger. Isaiah 42:1 John 4:34
John 5:30

The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon Him. Isaiah 42:1 Matthew 3:16-17

The Messiah would please God. Isaiah 42:1 Matthew 3:16-17
Matthew 17:1-6

The Messiah would not desire personal attention for Himself. Isaiah 42:2 Matthew 12:15-21

The Messiah would have compassion for the poor and needy. Isaiah 42:3 Matthew 11:4-5
Matthew 12:15-20


The Messiah would receive direction from God. Isaiah 42:6 John 5:19-20
John 14:10-11


The Messiah would be ministered to by God. Isaiah 42:6 John 8:29
Luke 22:42-43


The Messiah would be the "New Covenant". Isaiah 42:6 Matthew 26:28

The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:6 John 8:12
John 1:1-9

The Messiah would heal the blind. Isaiah 42:7 Matthew 9:27-30
Matthew 21:14

The Messiah would be the First and the Last. (The Amen) Isaiah 44:6 Rev 1:17-18
Revelation 3:14


The Messiah would be from everlasting. Isaiah 48:16 John 17:24

The Messiah would come for all people. Isaiah 49:1 1 Timothy 2:4-6

The Messiah would be called by God while in the womb. Isaiah 49:1 Matthew 1:20-21

The Messiah would be called by His name before he was born. Isaiah 49:1 Luke 1:30-31

The Messiah's words would be as a sharp as a two-edged sword. Isaiah 49:2 Rev 2:12-16
John 12:48


The Messiah would be protected by God. Isaiah 49:2 Matthew 2:13-15

The Messiah would be empowered for the judgment of mankind. Isaiah 49:2 John 5:22-29


The Messiah would be God's servant. Isaiah 49:3 John 17:4

The Messiah's life and death would glorify God. Isaiah 49:3 Matthew 15:30-31
John 12:27-28

The Messiah would be sorrowful because of the Jew's unbelief. Isaiah 49:4 Luke 19:41-42
Matthew 23:37


The Messiah would be God's servant. Isaiah 49:5 John 6:38
John 8:29

The Messiah would come to bring Israel back to God. Isaiah 49:5 Matthew 15:24
Matthew 10:5-7

The Messiah would be God's servant. Isaiah 49:6 John 1:49-50

The Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 49:6 Acts 13:47-48

The Messiah would be despised. Isaiah 49:7 John 10:20
Matthew 27:22

The Palms of the Messiah would be a witness. Isaiah 49:16 John 20:25-28

The Messiah would speak with God given knowledge. Isaiah 50:4 John 12:49
Matthew 7:28-29

The Messiah would not be rebellious to God's will. Isaiah 50:5 John 12:27

The Messiah's back would be lashed (stripped). Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 27:26

The Messiah's face would be beaten and spit upon. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67

The Messiah would not waver from His mission. Isaiah 50:7 Luke 9:51-53

The Messiah would be justified by His righteousness. Isaiah 50:8 1 Timothy 3:16
Romans 8:32-34

The Messiah would completely trust in God. Isaiah 50:8-10 John 11:7-10

The Messiah would proclaim the gospel from the mountain tops. Isaiah 52:7 Matthew 5:1-7:29

The Messiah would be God's servant. Isaiah 52:13 John 9:4
John 14:31

The Messiah would be highly exalted by God. Isaiah 52:13 Philippians 2:9-11

The Messiah's face would be disfigured from extreme beatings during His trial.
Isaiah 52:14 Mat 26:67-68
Mat 27:26-30

The Messiah's blood would be shed to make atonement for all mankind. Isaiah 52:15 Revelation 1:5

The Messiah's own people would reject Him. Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38

The Messiah would grow up in Nazareth. Isaiah 53:2 Matthew 2:21-23

The Messiah would appear as an ordinary man. Isaiah 53:2 Philippians 2:7-8

The Messiah would be despised. Isaiah 53:3 Luke 4:28-29

The Messiah would be rejected. Isaiah 53:3 Mat 27:21-23

The Messiah would suffer great sorrow and grief. Isaiah 53:3 Luke 19:41-42
Mat 26:37-38
Matthew 27:46

Men would deny association with the Messiah. Isaiah 53:3 Mark 14:50-52
Mat 26:73-74

The Messiah would heal many.
Isaiah 53:4-5 Luke 6:17-19
Matthew 8:16-17

The Messiah would bear the sins of the world upon Himself.
Isaiah 53:4-5 1 Peter 2:24
1 Peter 3:18

Many would think the Messiah to be cursed by God. Isaiah 53:4 Mat 27:41-43

The Messiah would bear the penalty of death for man's sins. Isaiah 53:5 Luke 23:33
Hebrews 9:28

The Messiah's would be bruised for our iniquities. Isaiah 53:5 Colossians 1:20
Eph 2:13-18

The Messiah's back would be lashed at His trial. Isaiah 53:5 Matthew 27:26
1 Peter 2:24

The Messiah would be the sin-bearer for all mankind. Isaiah 53:6 Galatians 1:4

The Messiah would be oppressed and afflicted. Isaiah 53:7 Mat 27:27-31

The Messiah would be silent as a lamb before His accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mat 27:12-14

The Messiah would be God's sacrificial lamb. Isaiah 53:7 John 1:29
John 19:14-18

The Messiah would be condemned and persecuted. Isaiah 53:8 Mat 26:47-27:31

The Messiah would be judged. Isaiah 53:8 John 18:13-22
Mat 26:57-66
Matthew 27:1
Matthew 27:22
Luke 23:11


The Messiah would be killed. Isaiah 53:8 Matthew 27:35


The Messiah would die for the sins of the world. Isaiah 53:8 1 John 2:2

The Messiah would be buried in a borrowed rich man's tomb. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60

The Messiah would be completely innocent. Isaiah 53:9 Mark 15:3
Matthew 27:17-24


The Messiah would have no deceit or guile in His mouth. Isaiah 53:9 John 18:38
Luke 23:33-34
1 Peter 2:21-22


God's will would be that the Messiah should die for all mankind. Isaiah 53:10 John 18:11
Romans 3:23-26


The Messiah would be a sin offering. Isaiah 53:10 Matthew 20:28
Ephesians 5:2


The Messiah would be resurrected and live forever.
Isaiah 53:10 Mat 18:28:1-7
John 21:14
Rev 1:17-18


The Messiah would prosper. Isaiah 53:10 John 17:1-5
Revelation 5:12


God would be completely satisfied with the suffering of the Messiah. Isaiah 53:11 John 12:27
Luke 23:46


The Messiah would be God's servant. Isaiah 53:11 Philippians 2:6-7

The Messiah would justify man before God. Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:8-9

The Messiah would be the sin offering for all mankind. Isaiah 53:11 Hebrews 9:28

The Messiah would be exalted by God for his sacrifice. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 28:18

The Messiah would freely lay down His life to save mankind. Isaiah 53:12 John 10:15-18
Luke 23:46


The Messiah would be counted with the criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:32


The Messiah would be the sin offering for all mankind. Isaiah 53:12 2 Cor 5:21


The Messiah would intercede for man to God. Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34


The Messiah would be resurrected by God. Isaiah 55:3 Acts 10:40-41
Acts 13:34


The Messiah would be a witness. Isaiah 55:4 John 3:10-12
John 18:37

The Messiah would come to provide salvation for all mankind. Isaiah 59:15-16 John 6:40
1 Thes 5:8-10


The Messiah would intercede between God and man. Isaiah 59:15-16 Mat 10:32-33
Romans 8:34


The Messiah would come to Zion as their Redeemer. Isaiah 59:20 Luke 2:23-38
John 10:11


The Messiah would have the Spirit of God upon Him. Isaiah 61:1 Matthew 3:16-17

The Messiah would preach the gospel of Good News. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:16-21


The Messiah would come to provide salvation. Isaiah 63:5 John 3:17
Col 2:13-15


The Messiah would be revealed to a people who were not seeking Him. Isaiah 65:1 Mat 15:22-28
Romans 10:18-20


The Messiah would be rejected by His own (Jews). Isaiah 65:2 John 5:37-40


Jeremiah Prophecies: written 519 years before the birth of Christ.
Old Testament Prophecy....... New Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would come from the lineage of David. Jeremiah 23:5 Luke 3:23-31

The Messiah would be Lord and King. Jeremiah 23:6 John 13:13

Herod the King would kill many children trying to destroy the Christ Child (Messiah). Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16

The Messiah would be born of a virgin (Mary). Jeremiah 31:22 Matthew 1:18-20

The Messiah would establish the New Covenant with man. Jeremiah 31:31 Matthew 26:28

The Messiah would come from the lineage of David. Jeremiah 33:14-15 Luke 3:23-31



Lamentations Prophecies: written 519 years before Christ's birth.
Old Testament Prophecy...New Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would be buffeted on the face at His trial. Lam 3:30 John 18:22



Ezekiel Prophecies: written 580 years before the birth of Christ.
Old Testament Prophecy ...New Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would come from the lineage of David and be king of Israel. Ezekiel 17:22-24 Luke 1:32-33

The Messiah would come from the lineage of David. Ezekiel 34:23-24 Matthew 1:1




Daniel Prophecies: written 538 years before the birth of Christ .
Old Testament Prophecy.....New Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would ascend into heaven after His resurrection. Daniel 7:13-14 Acts 1:9-11

The Messiah would be highly exalted with God. Daniel 7:13-14 Eph 1:20-22

The Messiah's dominion would be eternal. Daniel 7:13-14 Luke 1:31-33
Hebrews 1:8

The Messiah would come to condemn sin and conquer death. Daniel 9:24 Galatians 1:3-5

The Messiah would be God's anointed. Daniel 9:24 Luke 1:35

The Messiah would be revealed to the Jews 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Daniel 9:25 John 12:12-13


The Messiah would be put to death. Daniel 9:26 Matthew 27:35
The Messiah would die to take away the sins of the world. Daniel 9:26 Hebrews 2:9

The Messiah would die before the temple was destroyed. Daniel 9:26 Mat 27:50-54

Daniel saw a vision of the Messiah in His glorification. Daniel 10:5-6 Rev 1:13-16




Hosea Prophecies: written 725 years before the birth of Christ.
Old Testament Prophecy.....New Testament Fulfillment


God would call His Son (Messiah) out of Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:13-15


The Messiah would defeat sin and death. Hosea 13:14 1 Cor 15:55-57



Joel Prophecies: written at least 500 years before the birth of Christ.


Old Testament Prophecy......New Testament Fulfillment

The Messiah would provide salvation for all mankind. Joel 2:32 Romans 10:12-13



Amos Prophecies: written 750 years before the birth of Christ.

Old Testament Prophecy.....New Testament Fulfillment

God would blacken the sky during Jesus' crucifixion. Amos 8:9 Mat 27:45



Micah Prophecies: written 700 years before the birth of Christ.
Old Testament Prophecy....New Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would be buffeted on the face at His trial. Micah 5:1 Matthew 27:30

The Messiah would be born in the town of Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1-6

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Judah. Micah 5:2 Luke 3:23-33

The Messiah would be eternal. Micah 5:2 Revelation 1:8




Haggai Prophecies: written 520 years before the birth of Christ.
Old Testament Prophec....yNew Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would visit the second temple. Haggai 2:6-9 Luke 2:27-32

The Messiah would come from the lineage of Zerubbabel. Haggai 2:23 Luke 3:23-27



Zechariah Prophecies: written 520 years before the birth of Christ.
Old Testament Prophecy...New Testament Fulfillment


The Messiah would be God and dwell among His people. Zechariah 2:10-11 John 1:14

The Messiah would be sent by God. Zechariah 2:10-11 John 8:18-19

The Messiah would be God's chosen messenger. Zechariah 3:8 John 17:4

The Messiah would be both a High Priest and a King. Zechariah 6:12-13 Hebrews 5:4-6
Hebrews 8:1
Romans 8:34

The Messiah would enter Jerusalem and be greeted with rejoicing. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:8-11

The Messiah would be viewed as King. Zechariah 9:9 John 12:12-13
The Messiah would be just and worthy. Zechariah 9:9 John 5:30
The Messiah would bring salvation to all mankind. Zechariah 9:9 Luke 19:10
Titus 2:11-14

The Messiah would be humble in spirit. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 11:29
John 13:4-14

The Messiah would enter Jerusalem riding on an ***. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:6-9

The Messiah would be the cornerstone. Zechariah 10:4 Ephesians 2:20

Israel's rejection of the Messiah would result in God removing His protection of the people (Jews). Zechariah 11:10 Luke 19:41-44

The Messiah would be betrayed by Judas for thirty pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12 Mathew 26:14-15

The thirty pieces of silver would be thrown into the temple. Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:3-5

The thirty pieces of silver would be used to buy the Potter's Field. Zechariah 11:13 Matthew 27:6-7

The Messiah's body would be pierced (blood/water emitted). Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34

The Messiah would be God's co-equal. Zechariah 13:7 John 14:9-10

The disciples would be "scattered" after the death of the Messiah. Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31-56




Malachi Prophecies: written 420 years before the birth of Jesus.
Old Testament Prophecy...New Testament Fulfillment


A messenger (John The Baptist) would prepare the way for the Messiah. Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:7-10

The Messiah would make an unannounced appearance at the Jewish temple. Malachi 3:1 Mark 11:15-16

The Messiah would communicate the "New Covenant". Malachi 3:1 Luke 4:43

The Messiah's coming would be announced by a man coming in the spirit of Elijah (John The Baptist). Malachi 4:5 Matthew 3:1-2
Matthew 11:13-14

The Messiah's announcer would turn many hearts to God. Malachi 4:6 Luke 1:16-17
Mark 1:1-5

Not impressive MorningSong.

All of the authors of the New Testament had the Old Testament IN HAND whilst they were writing the New Testament.

So nothing's been "fulfilled".

All that has happened is that a lot of people have been duped!

~~~~~~

Like I have pointed out. Just look around. Is there any independent historical reports of any of the outrageous claims that are being made in the New Testament?

No there isn't.

Well, duh?

All you've done is show me that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and others were using the Old Testament to support their fables.

In fact, most of them even POINT THAT OUT in an effort to convince their readers. So it's perfectly clear that they had the Old Testament in hand and were making up their tales to match up with as many ideas as they could possibly find in the old writings.

The bottom line is simple:

Was Jesus never given the THRONE of David and pronounced the "King of the Jews"?

No, he wasn't.

Therefore he could not have been the prophesied messiah that was to be given the THRONE of David by God and proclaimed to be the King of the Jews by God himself.

The single most important point of the prophecy was never fulfilled.

All that was supposedly fulfilled were a bunch of obscure unprovable details that may or may not have ever actually happened.

Like I say, the outrageous claims that are being made in the New Testament apparently went totally unnoticed by the masses since they never recorded any of these things in normal history.

The ONLY PLACE we ever hear these outrageous claims are from these extremely few writings of clearly biased authors who had a clear agenda.

If we saw this sort of thing happen today we'd recognize it clearly to be FRAUD. No question about it. There's simply no independent historical evidence to back up any of these claims.

How could that possible be?

The only way that could possible be is because it never happened.

People love to gossip! Do you seriously think for one second that if some guy was going around healing all manner of sick people and raising people from the dead that people wouldn't be gossiping about that in normal history venues? Even non-believers would have mentioned that the masses were talking about such nonsense. But we don't even see that!

Do you think for one second that if God spoke to a large crowd of people they'd just walk away from that event and never talk about it again or write about what they had seen and heard? Even if they didn't know Jesus or fully understand what was going on they surely would have reported hearing a voice coming from a cloud in the sky.

Do you think for one second that if a multitude of previously deceased saints rose from their graves and went into the city to show themselves to the people there that no independent historical report would have ever been written about that event?

I would expect even non-believers to have written about such an event. They least they would have said was, "A bunch of guys came into the city claiming to be saints that have been risen from the dead". You'd at least expect to see that even from the most secular atheists.

But no, nothing. Zip, nada, zilch. Total silence in normal history channels.

How could that be?

Well, that's precisely what we would expect if those things truly never happened!

And that's precisely what we have.

~~~~~

All you have is a very few extremely biased authors that had the Old Testament right in front of them, claiming that Jesus fulfilled a bunch of prophecies.

But could they make him the "King of the Jews"?

No, they couldn't go that far because they know that no one would buy into that one.

So they tried to convince their readers by making up a bunch of details that no one could disprove!

~~~~

Just look at some of your "prophesies being fulfilled"

The Messiah would teach in parables. Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:13-15

So? It would be extremely easy for these authors to quote Jesus as having taught in parables.

The Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Luke 1:34-35

So? The authors claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. How could they even know this?

Clearly they are just claiming this to be true.

The Messiah would be called Immanuel, God With Us. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:21-23

Jesus wasn't called Immaunel, he was called "Jesus" or "Yahsuha", or some other name like that, certainly not Immanuel.

The Messiah would be God. Isaiah 7:14 John 12:45
1 Timothy 3:16

What? That's prophecy being fulfilled?

That's just their claim that no one can prove.

The Messiah would have wisdom from His childhood. Isaiah 7:15 Luke 2:40

So, they wrote into their stories that Jesus was wise as a child.

Notice too that they didn't even waste a lot of time on that one. They just gave a couple quick childhood examples and then dove right into their story with Jesus at about 30 years old.

They had the Old Testament (or Torah) right there on their desk when they were writing these stories. There can be no doubt about it because they reference these supposed "prophecies" right in their stories. So they are clearly trying to build a case for this.

The Jews didn't buy it, and of course they wouldn't!

Jesus never became the KING of the Jews, he could not have been the messiah prophesied in the Torah.

So the Jews weren't impressed by all these other things, because they too recognized these other claims were most likely just made up baloney.

I am suspiscious.

It is quite convient that years after his advent...

Someone writes a book that links him to the ancient prophets.

???

Thanks, appreciate your input.

Couple questions

If these people that wrote the New Testament just made it all up to further their agenda, why wouldn't they go back and rewrite the Old Testament so people like you would have a clear A - B relationship?

Next, how can I even have a debate with you about what is in the Bible when you clearly state nothing written in it is true or valid? Use the Bible to defend your accusations that it is all just made up BS? So, I would be using a source you already said you do not accept any information from as valid. That is a loosing battle before I even open my mouth.

If you really want answers to your questions - study how the Bible actually came to be, from the time Jesus walked the earth up until now. I know you won't accept anything I say about its validity.

As far as these people pushing their "agenda," the most profound evidence that what is written is true is the majority of the Apostles (I think it was 11 of the 12 remaining) were executed for their beliefs. If they were exaggerating or falsifying this, don't you think one of them would have equivocated before being executed years after Jesus was gone? Everyone went willingly to their death Praising His Name in the process.

Yup, that is why they are still Jews and not Christians.

The rest of your points are pointless to talk about.

There are historical references that exist in the New Testament.

But looking at your claim that they took the information at hand and wrote about it, you can say the same thing about any historical reference that was written.

No historical references to a divine event... A voice in the sky... Why would you be surprised that there is no record of something that is hard to believe when you actually are witnessing it let alone second or third hand?

There is speculation that UFOs were around in history also, and yet there is no historical reference of an object flying through the sky. Why not? Because in those days it is simply unbelievable that there was a large object that was flying through the air. If anything, they would be denying they even saw it as they would think it to be witchcraft. Why would anyone write a historical record of it? Same applies to all the divine events you are saying couldn't have happened otherwise there would be historical records of it.

Anyone that would write about that would be considered a radical nut job. Guess what, people that did not believe in Jesus DID think Christians were radical nut jobs... Don't forget, it was sport to kill Christians in those days. What would be the reason normal everyday people would be ok with the slaughter of the weird group of people with these outlandish claims? Hmmm, I wonder...

You make it sound so cavalier. I think I'm going to ostracize myself from society and have to meet in secret for fear of being killed just because this would be really cool to fool everyone into believing Jesus was the Son of God.

Think about that for a minute. You are saying this group of men got together and decided to form a conspiracy to perpetrate fraud upon the entire Earth when they knew they would be hunted and hounded all the days of their lives for making these outlandish claims. And even in the face of torture (actually being tortured not threatened with it.) and death never once recanted any of theses statements.

They couldn't re-write the Torah. The Torah was already known by too many other people. So that option wouldn't be open to them.

That would be like someone today wanting to rewrite the New Testament. Nobody's going to accept that.


Next, how can I even have a debate with you about what is in the Bible when you clearly state nothing written in it is true or valid? Use the Bible to defend your accusations that it is all just made up BS? So, I would be using a source you already said you do not accept any information from as valid. That is a loosing battle before I even open my mouth.

Same thing could be asked the other way around. How could I have a debate with you if you're going to take the stance that everything in the Bible must be accepted as the "Gospel Truth".

What would be the debate then? If I accept that, then you win automatically.

The New Testament claims that God himself spoke from a cloud saying, "This is my beloved son, hear him"

Well, gee whiz, if I accept that this truly happened then I must concede that Jesus was indeed the only begotten son of God sent by God to tell us something.

The New Testament claims that Jesus healed all manner of disease and performed many other miracles, including things like walking on water and turning water into wine.

If I accept that as TRUTH, then what I am going to argue?

The New Testament claims that Jesus rose from the dead.

If I accept that as TRUTH, then what I am going to argue?

Clearly I must come into the debate demanding that these stories are false until their claims can be shown to be true.

Otherwise, I automatically lose by default.

In fact, this is often a Christian tactic. Trying to get people to accept that the stories are "TRUE" and then slowly going through them bit by bit until the unsuspecting victim suddenly realizes that if the stories are TRUE then Jesus must be GOD!

OMG! Praise the LORD! You're RIGHT!

If I assume the stories are TRUE then Jesus has to be God!

Why couldn't I have seen that before.

Stupid me!

~~~~

No, I'm not going that route.

The stories are false until you can show otherwise.



I don't have any questions.

I know the bible is false, starting way back in the Old Testament.



I see no more evidence for those tales than I see for the tales of Jesus. So again, you're just giving me hypothetical stuff here.

Moreover, I've met people who claim to be "Christians" today who vow that they will die for Jesus before they would deny him.

Well, duh?

That should answer your question right there!

If people today are willing to die for Jesus and they have no clue whether he ever truly existed, then why wouldn't religious zealots back in those days be just as unreasonable?

Just because someone is willing to die for what they believe doesn't make what they believe TRUE. They could still be wrong.

I have very sound reasons for rejecting the entire Old Testament long before we even get to the New Testament.

Here's what I believe in regard to the Hebrew Bible.

1. The Old Testament is basically just a male-chauvinistic jealous version of Zeus and has no more merit than Greek Mythology. Both of these depict a male godhead who is appeased by blood sacrifices. They are far too similar to for one to be a mere man-made fable and the other to be depicting a "real God"

Why would the true creator of this universe just coincidentally happen to be like Zeus complete with being appeased by blood sacrifices?

2. I believe that "the story of Jesus" was actually sparked by a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who actually renounced the ways of the Torah and tried to teach the moral wisdom of Buddhism instead. It would have been natural for him to say things like "I and the Father are ONE", because that's what Buddhists believe. He even is credited with saying things like "Ye are Gods", again the pantheistic view of Buddhism here. He was crucified for blaspheme against the Torah and for claiming to be "One with God".

3. After this innocent loving man was crucified there was much controversy over who he was and what he was actually trying to teach. As this controversy evolved some people starting asking if maybe he was the "messiah" foretold in the Torah. The Scribes and Pharisees recognized that they could indeed make a case for that, and thus the New Testament was born.

~~~~~

That's what I honestly believe.

I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say the following, I truly believe this will all my heart and soul.

I don't believe that any "all-wise" creator would have his son nailed to a pole to pay for the sins of mankind and create a religion where his son being crucified is the ICON of LOVE.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, in my mind, that whole scenario represents the epitome of stupidity, and not the kind of plan that I would expect from a genuinely "all-wise" all-powerful creator.

So from my point of view, the story isn't even worthy of consideration at all.

People had no concept of "UFOs" back then. As far as they were concerned planet Earth was the only planet that exists. I'm sure they did associate lights they saw in the sky with gods and deities though.



For the same reasons that the Christian burned women as "witches".

SUPERSTITION!



Why should I believe that anyone was hunted and hounded all the days of their lives?

These are just more unsupportable stories.

I could read the tales of Greek Mythology and ask you the same questions about the characters in those stories.

You'd just dismiss them as being mere fables.

Well?

You say:


Sure there are. These stories were indeed written by SOMEONE and that someone had some clue about local events.

But none of that applies to the outrageous claims of miracles and divinity.

I could write a story about "MyLifeToday", I could describe things about you from your profile, I could mention specific posts that you made and so on and so forth.

Then I could make a whole bunch of miraculous claims about you that no one could disprove.

In the future people find my writings and ask, are these stories about "MyLifeToday" really TRUE?

Well, let's look at the historical records,....

YEP! Some guy using the screen name "MyLifeToday" actually existed and posted on the Internet just like Abracadabra wrote about!

WOW! Then everything that Abracadabra wrote about this guy must be TRUE!

Hardly.

Same thing could be asked the other way around. How could I have a debate with you if you're going to take the stance that everything in the Bible must be accepted as the "Gospel Truth".

What would be the debate then? If I accept that, then you win automatically.

The New Testament claims that God himself spoke from a cloud saying, "This is my beloved son, hear him"

Well, gee whiz, if I accept that this truly happened then I must concede that Jesus was indeed the only begotten son of God sent by God to tell us something.

The New Testament claims that Jesus healed all manner of disease and performed many other miracles, including things like walking on water and turning water into wine.

If I accept that as TRUTH, then what I am going to argue?

The New Testament claims that Jesus rose from the dead.

If I accept that as TRUTH, then what I am going to argue?

Clearly I must come into the debate demanding that these stories are false until their claims can be shown to be true.

Otherwise, I automatically lose by default.

In fact, this is often a Christian tactic. Trying to get people to accept that the stories are "TRUE" and then slowly going through them bit by bit until the unsuspecting victim suddenly realizes that if the stories are TRUE then Jesus must be GOD!

OMG! Praise the LORD! You're RIGHT!

If I assume the stories are TRUE then Jesus has to be God!

Why couldn't I have seen that before.

Stupid me!

~~~~

No, I'm not going that route.

The stories are false until you can show otherwise.



I don't have any questions.

I know the bible is false, starting way back in the Old Testament.



I see no more evidence for those tales than I see for the tales of Jesus. So again, you're just giving me hypothetical stuff here.

Moreover, I've met people who claim to be "Christians" today who vow that they will die for Jesus before they would deny him.

Well, duh?

That should answer your question right there!

If people today are willing to die for Jesus and they have no clue whether he ever truly existed, then why wouldn't religious zealots back in those days be just as unreasonable?

Just because someone is willing to die for what they believe doesn't make what they believe TRUE. They could still be wrong.

I have very sound reasons for rejecting the entire Old Testament long before we even get to the New Testament.

Here's what I believe in regard to the Hebrew Bible.

1. The Old Testament is basically just a male-chauvinistic jealous version of Zeus and has no more merit than Greek Mythology. Both of these depict a male godhead who is appeased by blood sacrifices. They are far too similar to for one to be a mere man-made fable and the other to be depicting a "real God"

Why would the true creator of this universe just coincidentally happen to be like Zeus complete with being appeased by blood sacrifices?

2. I believe that "the story of Jesus" was actually sparked by a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who actually renounced the ways of the Torah and tried to teach the moral wisdom of Buddhism instead. It would have been natural for him to say things like "I and the Father are ONE", because that's what Buddhists believe. He even is credited with saying things like "Ye are Gods", again the pantheistic view of Buddhism here. He was crucified for blaspheme against the Torah and for claiming to be "One with God".

3. After this innocent loving man was crucified there was much controversy over who he was and what he was actually trying to teach. As this controversy evolved some people starting asking if maybe he was the "messiah" foretold in the Torah. The Scribes and Pharisees recognized that they could indeed make a case for that, and thus the New Testament was born.

~~~~~

That's what I honestly believe.

I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say the following, I truly believe this will all my heart and soul.

I don't believe that any "all-wise" creator would have his son nailed to a pole to pay for the sins of mankind and create a religion where his son being crucified is the ICON of LOVE.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, in my mind, that whole scenario represents the epitome of stupidity, and not the kind of plan that I would expect from a genuinely "all-wise" all-powerful creator.

So from my point of view, the story isn't even worthy of consideration at all.




And you question why I say it is pointless to debate you on the Bible? You just said the entire Bible is false.

In order for it to be a debate you would need to acknowledge that this is a valid source of information. You cannot acknowledge that. I'm not asking you to believe the stories are true. I am asking you to believe that there is the possibility that it may be correct, no matter how slight. You have stated a few times now that you will not do that. How can I have a genuine debate on the validity of the Bible and the stories in it when you have already discarded the entire thing as false made up stories?

You have even said you will not do any research because you already know it is false.




That is not my intent here at all. But there is no point in debating with someone that has already made up there mind and will refuse to acknowledge any possible point I could make.

As far as I can tell I have to show the Bible is significantly historically accurate before you will be willing to even talk about it. My guess being that I would have to Prove the Bible's story of creation using historical and scientific information before you would be willing to talk about any other part about it.

If you believe in a Supreme Being, then He is capable of anything. Therefore anything in this universe is His creation and cannot disprove His Word.

Essentially, if there is a God, He could have made the universe the way it was yesterday. There is no reason He couldn't. Say for arguments sake that I am claiming that to be true. Disprove it, knowing what I just said I believe to be true. Going back and using historical records or scientific data is irrelevant because God created the history yesterday as well as the world with all the physical laws in place. Nothing you can use in this universe that He created yesterday could prove He did not create it yesterday. The answer would always be - that is how He created it, don't ask me why, I'm not Him.

But if you don't believe in God, there is nothing I can do to prove He does exist either. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to show that there is a good possibility of it. But there there is no way I can prove it.

Sorry,

Not sure how I lost the quote box.

Tried to restore it and evidently don't understand how quotes work well enough to fix it...

No. I'm not saying that I will not do any research. I'm saying that I have already done the research.



You're right. There is an extremely high probability that I will not be impressed by any possible point you could make.

This is true.



If you're going to hold out the ideal that it is errant and perfectly true in every verbatim detail, then yes, you would indeed need to make a case for that.

On the other hand, you could approach it from a more abstract view and merely suggest that if abstraction is permitted we can show where some truths can be gleaned from these stories.

I would actually be inclined to agree with that. But that same thing can be said of many religions and philosophies. So there would be nothing in that approach that would hold the biblical stories superior to any other spiritual faiths and philosophies.



That's totally irrelevant and does not apply to the biblical stories. The biblical stories must be consistent with their own claims concerning what God is supposedly like. It is my stance that they biblical stories are a contradiction to their very own claims.

Moreover, if you believe that a Supreme Being is capable of "anything", then you should be able to recognize how such a being could make it so that all religions and spiritual philosophies on Earth could be simultaneously "valid" (even if not literally true in a verbatim sense)



But that flies in the face of the "Character" that this God is supposed to have.

This God is supposed to be a righteous trustworthy God.

What kind of a righteous trustworthy God would create a universe that appears to be different from how it was actually created? Is he trying to FOOL someone?

In order for your claim here to be true, you're basically asking me to believe in a deceitful God that's simultaneously "trustworthy"

That already seems to be highly suspicious to me. Why would this God try to FOOL people from knowing the TRUTH?

Can you answer me that?



I'm not an "atheist". On the contrary I do indeed believe that there is a spiritual essence to reality. I always have, and I always will.

But that doesn't send me running off to worship Zeus!

Why should it send me running to worship Yahweh?

An argument that there exists a spiritual essence to reality does not automatically equate to "Hebrew fables are true!"

I personally prefer the Eastern Mystical approach to spirit. As far as I can see it has far more interesting an intelligent concepts. No offense intended, but there's just no other way to put it. It's how I feel.

The biblical story creates a Zeust-like male chavinistic self-confessed jealous God that has a huge ego that must be satisfied lest he'll cast people into a state of everlasting punishment.

Does that sound like an 'all-wise' all-benevolent God to you?

What would be the purpose of such a God to cast unwanted souls into a place of everlasting punishment?

Who's going to benefit from that?

Sounds more to me like something men made up to scare people into cowering down to their religious authority.

The biblical stories are riddled with contradictions like these galore.

The Eastern Mystical picture of spirit solves these problems in a far more intelligent way, IMHO.

~~~~~~

Far too often people do indeed want to reduce everything to either "atheism" on the one hand, or "Christianity" on the other. Especially the Christians, they love that scenario because that requires that a person either believe in their religion or accept atheism, and there is no other choice!

But that's simply not true. There are better picture of spirituality to be had.

~~~~~~

You said yourself, if there truly exists a spiritual being then surely this spiritual being is capable of anything.

Well, if that's true, then why not pick the very best picture you can possible find of spirit? There's no reason to believe that "god" would be an lesser than the best possible picture would even DREAM UP!

You could DREAM UP you're very own ideal perfect spirit and KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt that if such a Supreme Being actually exists you haven't even BEGUN to trump what it is truly capable of.

Well, I can imagine pictures of a "god" that is far more intelligent and more beautiful than the picture painted by the biblical stories.

Therefore you're basically suggesting to me that I can DREAM even BETTER than God can.

But that's an oxymoron right there.

I cannot possible imagine God to be "BETTER" than God truly is. For if I achieved such a thing I would have out-dreamed God.

But I CAN imagine a better picture of God than the Hebrews paint.

Therefore the Hebrew picture must necessarily be false.

Either God is far better than what the Hebrews claim, or maybe the atheists are right and there is no God at all.

I don't claim to know the truth.

But I do know that the picture of God that the ancient Hebrews paint is far beneath what even I, as a mere mortal man, can imagine God to be like.

So for me, it's not a matter of Atheism versus the Bible.

That's just a very tiny silver of human thinking that isn't even worthy of consideration from my perspective.

You have a lot of good points.

First, if I don't address it right now the answer I would have probably is, "I don't know, I'm not God."

As far as Atheism vs Hebrew God - I was not trying to say that or imply that.

What I was saying was - You rejected the Bible already as false, if you don't believe in God as well, then there REALLY is no point in debating anything.

But you said you do believe in a Supreme Being so there is something we can talk about. The nature of His existence.

As far as God creating the world yesterday, It was only to illustrate that God is a lot more powerful than most people give Him credit for, including a lot of Christians.

I do believe in The Bible and the stories in it are true, therefore the claim He created the world yesterday is false.

As far as the creation of the world, what I believe is true is the story in the Bible accurately reflects our scientific observations and historical records.

God states 100 years to you is but a blink of the eye to me. So, 7 days to create the world could easily be the billions of years from the Big Bang (assuming that theory is correct) until history lines up with The Bible. but then there is always the question: Why was there a Big Bang in the first place? What caused it? So far all I have heard is it was essentially a spontaneous event. Where was the matter and energy a year before the big bang? (that reminds me of an idea I had a long time ago about the similarities between the structure of the atom, solar systems and galaxies - totally unrelated to this thread in anyway.)

If the theory of evolution is correct, that does not disprove God created man either. There is no reason God could not have guided evolution to create man the way he is today. That idea does not negate the story of the Bible that God created man from dust. Evolution started from dust according to the theory. God made all the physical rules of the universe. Any discrepancy from our scientific records to the Bible is only because the Bible was written for our understanding. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to describe evolution in the Bible to people that would not see any evidence of this? If all the physical rules of the universe were to be described in the Bible, the Bible would be a literal library of books.

As far as your thought the Bible contradicts itself, I would say you are wrong but I cannot argue that unless you have specific examples of how it does. I imagine you have dozens or hundreds you have.

You said you can dream better than God because you wouldn't create a world like this. God has His purpose. I believe that purpose is to test us to see if we will love Him despite the hardships we live through. The Bible also states that God says He will not give us more than we can handle. That means, everything you face will not be to any degree that you could not believe in God. You can choose to discard Him because you don't like the suffering you are going through but there is nothing you can face that will make it impossible to believe in Him.

I also think - not believe - that there is a possibility that the other religions exist for other people. Jesus does say that it is possible to get to Heaven without knowing Him. But those that know Him and reject Him cannot. Now what constitutes "Knowing" in the way He means? Not sure, could be that you would have to believe at some point in your life that He is the Messiah. Could be that you have sat and studied His life and chosen not to believe. Could be that you had a debate like we are now. I don't know the answer to that one. But you are correct, there is a very real possibility the other religions are created for those people to get to Heaven. There are some religions that I believe are there to deceive therefore would not, but I don't think that applies to all other religions. However, what I believe personally is that the only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus. Therefore the other religions are wrong. But I am not perfect and I am not God so I could be wrong. It could be that Christianity was brought to me because that is what I need while others have another religion brought to them because that is what they need.

I personally believe that when you die everyone will be brought before God, Jesus and the Spirit. You will be shown the sins you have not repented for in your life. (note: not ALL your sins - only those you have not asked for and received forgiveness from during your life) You will be asked if you are worthy of entering Heaven after having seen how often you have rejected it. I believe the people that have believed in Jesus will have an easier time of asking for forgiveness then and accepting His forgiveness as the Gift it is intended to be. The sacrifice He made for us is His Gift to us. But not all that have believed in Him will be able to ask for forgiveness then. There are a lot of Christians that do not understand the nature of forgiveness in the Bible.

But, since everyone will come before the Trinity, everyone will have an opportunity to get to Heaven. But I believe the event will be such an emotional tearing of the soul that it will be VERY hard to ask for the forgiveness you need even if you do believe.

As far as the question in the OP. I have called myself Christian my whole life. (well except for a 2 year period where I was convinced there was no God back in 2000) But after I learned about the Greek gods in grade school and realized the similarity between the Heroes and Jesus, I had a hard time accepting Him as my Savior. I would fluctuate on that for decades. Sometimes I would accept it and other times felt my faith was strong enough that I would skip Jesus and talk directly to God. In reality I was rejecting Jesus then because I didn't want to deal with that question.

A direct connection with "God" is had by your being in harmony with your inner being.

There is no need for dogma and religion.

there is truly not a 'need' for anything but water, food, oxygen and rest


but people are emotional and spiritual beings who often seek , reasonably, to have more than their physical needs met