All of this rebellion has gotten out of control.
Too bad more people aren't protesting... the protesters
and questioning... the questioners.

So do you support blind fascist dictatorships?

That's basically what you are proposing here.

Moreover, that's precisely what the religious doctrine you support is suggesting. The Biblical God is the ultimate dictator, either do as he says or be killed (or worse yet be punished in some way and maybe not even allowed to die).

And look at some of the "tests" that he puts people through. These are fables of the "God of Abraham", and look what this God did to Abraham, he asked him to murder his own son as a sacrifice to God. Yes, I'm fully aware that at the last minute he stopped Abraham and told him not to do it that he was merely "testing" Abraham's loyalty.

But isn't that truly sick right there?

Here you have a "God" who demands that people follow his commands blindly even when he tells them to do horrible things like killing their own child. What kind of a "God" would that be?

I "Better God", IMHO, would be a God who would actually be pleased with someone who would refuse to do nasty things even if the directives are supposedly coming from God himself.

After all, what's the ultimate reason for obeying any God? The ultimate reason would be to save your own butt from God's wrath. So would you murder your children just to appease a God to avoid his wrath? Or would you object on the behalf of your children and volunteer to face God's wrath rather than murder your own children?

I think these are very DEEP questions.

Moreover, the whole scenario with God and Abraham was supposed to be God "testing" Abraham to see if he would comply!

Well DUH?

This is an oxymoron too!

If this biblical God supposedly knows what's in the hearts of men and knows what they will or won't do even before they do it, then why would he need to "test" anyone?

Like I say, these fables are just filled with oxymorons.

~~~~~

Also, getting back to protesting against "authority". Look at what was going on. The government was DRAFTING our children to fight a truly STUPID WAR in Vietnam. A war that many people would argue should have never been fought in the first place.

Same deal goes with George Bush's invasion of Iraq more recently. We can all "Thank God" that he didn't have the draft at his fingertips!

You seem to be against rebellion against "authority", but who is the "authority" in that case? Was it God's idea to have a war in Vietnam? Was it God's idea that the USA should invade Iraq. According to George Bush it was! George Bush, at one time made a statement that God "told him" to invade Iraq!

I personally don't believe that any truly divine and righteous God would have told anyone to do any such a thing.

Do you really expect people to just sit back and do nothing whilst religious right-wing fanatics are using a concept of God and the ancient Hebrews fables to do really nasty things?

Sure those right-wing fanatics would love to have that kind of POWER. They hide behind the Robe of Jesus in the hopes that no one will see their blatant hypocrisy. But, in truth, Jesus himself would have nothing to do them.

Jesus was a rebel. He rebelled against the Torah, and he rebelled against the pharisees who were in power in his day. He called them hypocrites. Jesus hung around with the very same kinds of people who made the 60's what it was!

Jesus was the ultimate hippy. "Make love not war", love your brother, and turn the other cheek to hostility.

Jesus could never be a "King" of an empire with an attitude like that. In fact, just look at what the Christians have Jesus doing when he supposedly comes back? He's going to have an all-out war with all the non-believer and everyone who refuses to bow down and kiss his feet. He's going to cast them all into a lake of fire.

Does that even remotely sound like the man who preached that we should love everyone, turn the other cheek and forgive people?

No, not at all.

The whole Christian religion is a farce. It's just an organized monster that tries to turn Jesus into a monster.

And YOU SUPPORT IT!

Christianity itself is truly the "anti-Christ" if there ever was such a thing.

Christianity isn't about following the teachings of Jesus, it's about using Jesus as a scapegoat to support religious bigotry and unkind and uncaring "authoritative" power that shouldn't be "questioned".

All "authority" must be questioned. Even the authority of a supposedly all-powerful being.

Just because a being is all-powerful doesn't make it worthy of worship or dedication. The Biblical story has Satan supposedly trying to overtake God's position of "authority". Now I realize that you have been brainwashed to believe that no such thing could ever be possible, but put that aside for a moment and just pretend that it could be possible.

What then?

Satan would then become "God", the ultimate "authority".

Would you then bow down and worship Satan without questioning his righteousness?

I think not.

So if "God" has any true "power" it must come from his "righteousness" and for no other reason.

You can't just say, "Well God is all powerful and he'll just cast anyone into a lake of fire who doesn't do his bidding".

So big deal? A demon could do that!

If we want to believe in a truly "righteous God", then righteousness must necessarily be the source of this God's ultimate power.

And so when things begin to become "unrighteous" then it's time for us to question the authority that attempts to enforce those ideas.

Some things that are "unrighteous" are:

1. Going to war needlessly
2. Male-chauvinism
3. Religious bigotry
4. Bigotry against lifestyle choices of other people
5. Renouncing genuinely knowledge in favor of unwarranted superstitions.

These are all highly "unrighteous" things. And thus they need to be questioned.

If I go to hell for questioning "unrighteous things" then so be it. I may end up in hell, but in my heart at least I'll know that my righteous exceeds the righteousness of the entity that condemned me to hell. And that's good enough for me.

I want no parts of a demonic "God" who doesn't even have the intellectual capacity to recognize righteousness.

we can either live holding God to our standards, believing them the more intelligent and superior

or we can trust the CREATOR of all live has a superior knowledge beyond our complete understanding


but it will only be through Jesus that any of us will see a home with God,,,

But that's the oxymoron right there!

"but it will only be through Jesus that any of us will see a home with God"

Especially if a "belief" in Jesus is important.

That can only be religious bigotry. That whole notion is nothing more than a means of a religion to suck people in to following all of it's tenets.

The Christians are hypocrites. (and when I speak of "Christians" here, I'm talking about the people who wrote these stories and/or those who support them with a vengeance.

Because it's bull crap.

If I tell you that I "accept" Jesus in terms of his moral teachings, that's not good enough for the Christians.

They aren't satisfied with that in the slightest. They demand that I also believe that he was the "only begotten son" of the God of Abraham that was sent as a sacrificial lamb to be brutally butchered on a pole to "Pay for my sins".

Moreover, to even acknowledge that is not quite sufficient, or I should say, that it's just a "gimmick" to get a person to believe even MORE CRAP.

In other words, once I acknowledge that Jesus is the son of the God of Abraham sent to be the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of mankind, that automatically implies a completely acceptance of the entire Old Testament fables and everything that they demand as well!

So Jesus is just being used as a scapegoat by this religion to suck people into a far deeper and convoluted belief system.

It's not "Good enough" to simply accept Jesus as your "savior", the whole religious gimmick behind that is that once they have you acknowledging the whole sacrificial lamb think they got ya. They have successfully sucked you into their entire brainwashing scheme, which ultimately has you supporting things like Religious Bigotry and a myriad of other concepts that all come from the Old Testament fables.

You cannot "accept Jesus as your savior" without simultaneously acknowledge the whole rest of the religion.

Moreover, in theory, if you accept the whole rest of the religion then you must LOVE the God of the Old Testament with all your heart, and all you mind, and all your soul.

Well, I got news for you, about 99.9% of all modern day Christians do not like or appreciate the God of the Old Testament. Take Jesus out of the picture and what have you got left? Basically Judaism and/or Islam! Religions that most Christians totally reject and do not like.

Christians themselves are in love with Jesus.

They don't even like the actual "God" in this fable.

Who are you kidding?

Christians worship and revere Jesus! NOT the God of the Old Testament. In fact, the very reason that they love Jesus so much is because Jesus himself renounced all the crap from the Old Testament that most people don't like. Like stoning sinners to death, and seeking revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

The only reason Christians are in love with Jesus, is because like me Jesus also rejected the nasty crap of the Old Testament.

So to nail Jesus back onto the Old Testament via an idea that he was the sacrificial lamb of that nasty God is ludicrous, IMHO.

Yet, that's precisely what the authors of the New Testament tried to do (or have actually succeeded in doing by having convinced so many people of that scenario)

Nope, sorry MsHarmony, but if I'm going to TRUST in an intelligent all-wise creator, I absolutely must TRUST that it has nothing to do with the Old Testament or being appeased by blood sacrifices.

And like I say, if that's grounds to be sent to hell, then as far as I'm concerned my conclusions will have just been proven to be true.

The God of the Bible would be a seriously hateful and uncaring God if he actually existed, because according to the Bible non-believers will be abandoned by God (or worse yet, punished by God) for simply not believing in a truly rude, crude, and disgusting story.

I don't care what you say, there is absolutely nothing wise or divine about a God who would used a brutal crucifixion as the focal point of his "religious message to mankind".

Moreover, to make and acceptance of such a disgusting thing mandatory in order to "win" this God's love?

I'm sorry, but yes, IMHO, that's just plain sick.

There's no way to get to the biblical God through LOVE. The ONLY way to get to the love of the Biblical God is by condoning a truly disgusting and despicable act of horrible brutality (FOR YOUR SAKE). To SAVE YOUR BUTT!

For the bottom line is truly quite simple:

Would I personally condone, or partake, in having an innocent man nailed to a pole to pay for my failings?

No, I absolutely would not.

Well, there's your answer right there.

If I won't condone such an act on my behalf, then how could I even begin to pretend to accept it on my behalf?

To accept it is to condone it.

So the Biblical God would have set things up to make it basically impossible for me to "win" his LOVE.

I can't condone what is required to "win" his so-called "LOVE".

In fact, I highly question the very concept of such "LOVE".

And to be perfectly frank about it, I have no respect for any God who would behave in such a fashion.

As far as I'm concerned if Christianity is true, then all I can say is that God is one huge disappointment as far as I'm concerned.

We would have been better off had atheism been true.

Fortunately, for me, it doesn't come down to one or the other. There actually exist far better spiritual philosophies. So I don't need to choose simply between the biblical fables or atheism.

There are far wiser philosophies to be had. In fact, if I'm going to believe that our creator is truly all-wise then shouldn't I believe in the wisest possible philosophy I can find?

Why believe in an unwise philosophy if I want to hold out the notion that our creator is all-wise?

And as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wise about a God who would have a brutal crucifixion as the central pillar of his message of "LOVE".

To be perfectly honest about it, that's about the least wise scenario I can possibly imagine.

Abra, what you display on mingle2 Religion Chat is a phobia.

I suppose in a way you're right.

It would indeed be a nightmare if the creator of this universe turned out to not even be as nice as me.

Yes, that would indeed be scary CeriseRose. Like I say, atheism would be a better reality.

Absolutely.

For you Abra, I highly recommend the proverbial "Chill-Pill".

What's wrong Cerise? Am I making too much sense?

All I do is be honest about my feelings, and you recommend a "chill-pill" simply because I won't support your "authoritarian" fascist religion.

I truly agree with Stephen Weinberg, "Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, but it takes religion to get good people to do bad things."

I personally feel that I'm a good person. And I don't need some hypocritical religion to try to tell me otherwise.

actually, ALL types of people do good and bad, because NO person is perfectly infallible



with or without religion in the picture

Seriously MsHarmony, I disagree with this religious rhetoric. This is what Christian evangelists would love for everyone to believe. That if you do something stupid that means you did something 'bad' or that you are a 'bad person'.

I totally disagree with that. A truly bad person does bad things intentionally, and often premeditated, or certainly with intent.

Trying to claim that a because a decent honest person might say or do things that are "less than perfect" makes them a "bad person" is baloney.

In fact, most truly honest people are upset with themselves after they do something they are less than please about. That, right there, is instant repentance. There's no need to call in the Pope to make it official. If a person is sorry they did something and feels remorse for it, then they have indeed repented right there, because that's precisely what it means to repent.

They have repented in their heart, and supposedly God knows what's in the hearts of men. So there's no need for religion at all.

I agree with you that it doesn't matter whether a person is religious or not. Whether a person is religious or not has nothing to do with whether they are a 'good person' or a 'bad person'. That is determined by what they actually do.

Stephen Weinberg didn't say that religion makes people bad. Nor did he imply that non-religious people are good. He simply said that good people will be good (religious or not), and bad people will be bad (religious or not), however, to make a good person to bad thing, requires religion!

Because that's the only way that a truly good person would go along with it!

Although, in truth, religion isn't the only thing that can do that. Patriotism can do that. Citizens of a country can be incited to do bad things for their country, I think Nazi Germany is probably the best example of that. All Germans weren't bad people, they were just going along with what their country was doing.

And of course, this can even be expanded to include small groups of people and peer pressures.

Of course, the thing that makes religion stand out above all the others is that when people truly believe they are doing something in the name of "God Almighty",... well,... what higher purpose can you possibly serve?

So in that sense, religion can incite truly innocent people to do terrible things in the name of "God". That's just a fact of life.

the original quote posted was this

' "Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, but it takes religion to get good people to do bad things."




not this


'that good people will be good (religious or not), and bad people will be bad (religious or not), however, to make a good person to bad thing,'



I agree that labeling people as bad or good people is rather non productive and pointless, I am disagreeing that is is somehow RELIGION that 'gets' people to do bad things

In actuality Abra, you come here to wrestle
with your own conscience.

May the best Abra win!!!

Well I would disagree. History shows otherwise. Over three hundred years of torturing and burning innocent midwives as "witches". Supposedly "good people" doing horrible things in the name of religion.

In fact, if you stop and think about it, it was actually religion that caused the mob that had Jesus crucified to behave the way they did. Jesus was being accused of blaspheme. It was religion that caused his crucifixion in the first place.

The Crusades are another historical example. And so are the Cathers. How about Hypatia at Alexandria? The list goes on and on.

The fact that religion can incite supposedly 'good people' to do bad things in the name of a God appears to be historically confirmed.

I would personally suggest that religion still causes people to do bad things to this very day. I mean, gee whiz, just look at 911. That was a religiously incited attack against the USA as being 'infidels against God'. Sure it may not have been a religious view that you approve of, but it was still religion none the less.

In fact, how suicide bombers who believe that they are acting in the name of their "God". Again, you may disagree with those religious views, but it's still religion that is inciting and motivating people to do these kinds of things.

I'm not saying the religion is the only thing that can motivate people to do bad things, but the point of Weinberg's statement is that it takes religion to get good people to do bad things.

Supposedly the people who attacked the WTC on 9/11 believed that they were serving their "God". Same thing is true of suicide bombers, or people who blow up abortion clinics, etc. They have convinced themselves that what they are doing is "right", and religion is the concept they use to arrive at that conclusion (right or wrong).

Wrestle with philosophical issues? Yes.

Wrestle with my own conscience? Hardly.

I'm a romantic. Yes it's true. I'm a dreamer. I would LOVE for there to be something more to life than atheism suggests.

Sure, why not? Life is wonderful, it would be great if there could be some way to experience more of it. Especially if it can even get better in some way (which is precisely the Christian Dream). They dream of going to a heavenly place where everything is perfect and the "evils" of Earthly existence will no longer be a threat.

So as a philosopher, do I question whether such a thing may be possible. Absolutely!

And I wrestle with those ideas. Absolutely!

However, I'm not distraught, nor desperate over the idea. I'm not about to turn to a "blind belief" in a religion for the sake of trying to psychologically convinced myself that I've been personally 'saved' from an atheistic death and will be selected as a 'winner' for a trip to an eternal Disney world.

There's no 'redemption' in any of that. That's nothing more than the epitome of personal lust to avoid facing the possible reality that atheism might actually be the true nature of reality.

Besides, what's the storyline there? With the Hebrew religious folklore the storyline is that I'm somehow "guilty" of having turned away from some supposedly 'righteous God', because I'd rather do 'unrighteous things'.

Well, sorry Cerise, but I know that that line of thinking is total baloney in my own personal case. If there is one thing I'm NOT doing it's rebelling against any supposed "righteous creator".

Contrary to what you have come to believe, I don't accept the idea that rejection of the Hebrew religious myths constitute a rejection of God.

And that's the bottom line.

I know better!

I know that it is not my intent, nor my desire to "reject" any supposedly supremely intelligent creator (especially a truly righteous one). On the contrary I would welcome such an entity with OPEN ARMS!

However, the problem with the Hebrew myths (and the Christian rhetoric that has grown up around them), is that their fables are not about a supremely intelligent creator (nor a righteous one). On the contrary, the fictitious God of the bible is portrayed to be less wise than a barroom drunkard, IMHO.

So, YES, I do struggle with philosophical issues of life.

Can there be a spiritual element to life? Or is atheism true?

Well, it's my conclusion that IF there is a spiritual essence to life it cannot be described by Hebrew religious folklore because that folklore is not an intelligent folklore, IMHO.

The way I see it, if there truly is an awesome supreme creator it's not going to be anywhere near as lame as the biblical fables portray it to be.

So, there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that the biblical fables do not portray reality. At least not in a verbatim sense. They may contain some spiritual wisdom in among the man-made rhetoric.

Their are a lot of things that I could point to in the biblical cannon of scriptures that actually support other spiritual philosophies such as Eastern Mysticism and even Wicca. But there is also a lot of male-chauvinism and religious bigotry embedded in those same fables. There's no way that those kinds of ignorant ideas came from any all-wise supreme and righteous being.

Because, the whole idea that God is a MALE fatherly image like Zeus is baloney as well, IMHO.

If there exist some sort of supreme entity it has no gender and it's not going to have an egotistical jealous attitude like the biblical characterization of "God".

And there's absolutely no way that you are ever going to convince me that an all-wise supreme being would be associated with requiring that people accept the crucifixion of an innocent man to "pay" for their sins.

That's just totally unacceptable from my perspective.

And the Christians who that whole scenario to spread, intellectual dishonesty about scientific knowledge, they use it to make people feel guilty for simply not joining the Christian bigotry bandwagon.

I see nothing intelligent or divine about it to be quite honest with you Cerise. It's just not a even a good mythological fable, much less qualifying as a righteous reality.

aknowledging GOOD and BAD people in the first place and then blaming religion for what they do,,is an oxymoronic philosophy though,,isnt it?


is it his contention that BUT FOR religion, these so called 'good' people would not do bad things?


as I said before, there arent good and bad people, there are fallible humans who do both good and bad things,,,

a concept that I learned early on which was actually REINFORCED through my religion

I wonder where others who are so anti religion get THEIR concepts of good and bad people?

I wonder if,, instead of being willing to aknowledge that there is hardly anything under the sun that people will not use to EXCUSE their bad decisions they will continue to insist that it must be religion which makes them do it

(reminds me also of the critique the religious get for not being accountable for their own actions ,,, which is it, should we be accountable for our own actions or is it RELIGION making us do it?)

Perhaps this is where we disagree?

I personally believe that there are indeed bad people in this world.

Fortunately for the bulk of us, the number of truly bad people is quite small.

Religion tries to make out like everyone is basically a 'bad person' who is in need of repentance.

I don't buy into the notion that people are merely 'fallible' and they need to repent from their 'evil ways' simply because they are 'fallible'.

I also don't believe that atheists are doing something 'bad' by not believing in religion.

I don't believe that same-gender lovers are doing something 'bad'.

I don't believe that all Jews are 'bad' because they refuse to believe that Jesus was "The Christ".

I don't believe that all Muslims are 'bad' simply because they reject Christianity.

I don't believe that Wiccans are 'bad', on the contrary I personally haven't met a Wiccan yet that came across as a 'bad' person.

I don't believe that Eastern Mystics are 'bad'.

Yet, you'd truly need to believe that all of those people are 'bad' because they are all rejecting the Hebrew scriptures as being the "word of God".

There's just no way that "goodness" has anything to do with "religion".

And you still seem to be missing Dr. Weinberg's point. He's not saying that religion makes all people bad. What he's saying is that religion can get "good people" to do bad things, because it convinces them that what they are doing is actually "good", when in truth, it's really bad.

Just like Christians who renounce scientific knowledge in favor of supporting biblical stories. That's 'bad', IMHO. And the people who are doing this no doubt believe that they are "good", they are trying to be "good". Yet their religion has these "good" people doing "bad" things in the name of religion.

Yet, you'd truly need to believe that all of those people are 'bad' because they are all rejecting the Hebrew scriptures as being the "word of God".



why?



you chose to believe in good and bad people, that is your personal choice

you think beliefs are bad but not actions such as homosexual relations, and that is your personal choice


I have reiterated that I dont believe in the concept of good and bad people and IF I were to apply the label of 'good' or 'bad' to anything it would be the choices people make regarding their ACTIONS


good and bad choices, not good and bad people,,choices that bring us closer to God and those which set us further apart,that is my personal choice to believe

my point is the statement 'IT TAKES RELIGION'

implies that BUT FOR religion, something wouldnt happen,,and thats not true

Hey, Saint (COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH) Thomas Aquinus was a known Boozer and profligate whore monger as well as rude and mean tempered. Look at what he did for religion! That Catholic Church made him a Saint for crying out loud! Tell me the booze didn't help!

I love the beer garden at a Catholic festival. Good times........

Abra, you are confessing... that Christianity and Judaism
are indeed the ONLY TRUE religions.

Several clues are making this obvious.

By using the term "religion" you are excluding...wicca, atheism, buddhism, hinduism, zoroastrianism, etc.

Nobody is name-calling and bashing, besides you.

Your fear of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
is consuming you.

Keep wrestling, and may the best Abra win!!!