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| Topic: Identity - I am a(n)...American ??? | |
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Why is all men created equal a right? It's not in the constitution. We hold these truths to be self-evident... all men are endowed by their creator with... ... all men are created equal. yep... part of the constitution. Placed in the part the says 'under god'. Placed before the part that calls itself the bill of rights. Constitution does not 'give' that right... It assumes that god gave it to us allready. Dude that is the declaration of independence not the constitution. It was used to go against the idea of the Divine right as kings. That's true and the OP does specifically point to the Constitution. However, the Declaration of Independence encompassed the ideals of freedom and liberty. The document set the framework within which the Constitution was set. Reference is often made to the Declaration of Independence to clarify the values that were transferred to the Constitution. Just wanted to point that out. Once again I agree, but the original person I quoted claimed it was a right and so I asked why? The Declaration declared it a truth not a right. I wasn't arguing whether the founding fathers had a ideal or not. They obviously did. |
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I agree with you, but I think you misunderstood my post. I was not asking the question because I wanted an answer. I was asking the question because I wanted others to think on this. I could tell by your posts your thought process on this was already on the same level as mine I just make it more blunt because I am lazy XD. This was for all the others in the thread.  Well - it worked, you make ME think about it and so I answered. Thanks for joining the discussion.
Your welcome. I like to make people think, so I often take the side of the argument that is least traveled because it makes people think, even if it is not my personal opinion. Many people get angry because they think its my opinion and are not open to other points of view but I am trying to let people be more open minded. We need more original and free thinking people in our world and I am trying to do my part in spreading that. Look at both sides of issues. Try arguing the opposite of your personal beliefs. You learn a lot. |
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Gee. I could rant for hours about this topic, but I don't have the time. Firstly, I don not think all men were created equal. I think some are prone to be workaholics and some are downright lazy. I do not think that the constitution gives all of benefits of hard work to those who avoid work at all costs. I think the government should provide "some" degree of support for those who cannot support themselves AND the families of people in need should provide help for family members. I do not think the government has the right to spend money it does not have. I do not think politicians who will say anything to get elected should be able to ignore all their campaign promises without any immediate consequences. Perjury should apply to all. I believe the two party system is broken and neither party represents the average view of the average American. I think the far left is socialist in nature and will destroy and/or bankrupt the US if given the chance with stupid spending and "give away" programs that defy the basic constitutional goal of each "citizen" having the "opportunity" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nancy Pelosi may be the world's dumbest human being. The Constitution is void if it only applies to some and not others but illegals are encouraged to mock the law while citizens are punished for self protection from the same illegals. One of the primary purposes of the Constitution is to give the federal government the DUTY to protect our borders. The complete failure of that charge would give all states and citizens the right to self defense to make up for that failure ... or so it would seem. The illegals represent potential voters to Democrats and cheap labor to Republicans so the US citizen who has to put up with crime and the cost of illegals gets screwed. The far right tries to merge religion with policy in ways not intended by God fearing constitution framers. Some of the far right is guided by large corporations who seek only protection for the corporation but can afford enough money to sway minds with rhetoric. Rush Limbaugh knows nothing about global warming, engineering, or a number of other issues but sways minds as if he was an expert. I, like the framers of the Constitution, believe in fiscal responsibility and personal freedom. The legal system should remove child molesters, rapists, career criminals, and the like from society, not provide never ending income for a bunch of worthless liberal attorneys. Texas leads the nation in executions. I am proud of that fact. This responce has nothing whatever to do with this thread, which happens often in this forum but not often enough to assume that such interruptions are a SHARED American value. "We hold these truths to be self evident." The problem with a rant is the lack of organization. The comments were specifically directed at the changes in American society that we, as a people with Shared values have allowed to occur since the writing of the document. The constitution provides specific directives as to the duties of the Federal government to provide for the common defense and the duty of the federal government to protect our borders while, generally insuring equal protection of the law for all citizens. The shared value of these duties have been corrupted and was a focus of my comments. Specific comments were directed at the unequal treatment of criminals in our justice system by the continued erosion of the "will of the jury" to a swinging door justice system apparently designed to create as much money for the legal system as possible and a major diversion from the quick and fair justice system contemplated in the constitution. They use to hang most criminals within thirty days. Likewise, it is my opinion that the constitution was originally intended to describe a "pay as you go" system without the type of debt now incurred. Your OP left wide open the specifics of why and how we were to discuss the constitution. If you would like to set firmer rules, so be it, but do not disparage a serious response just because it may not align with your opinion. Your comment that it has nothing to do with the thread or the constitution is incorrect. If you do not understand the connection, further explanation can be requested. This is the manner of polite discussion. |
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Edited by
davidben1
on
Thu 10/14/10 12:37 AM
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there are plenty of shared value's between all American's, and all HUMANS for that matter? what is a "value"? to limit the definition of "value", one would first have to define the qualifier's used to measure value? if one is referring most to religous value's, moral value's, relationship value's, family value's, these no doubt will differ, as each hath a individual personality, with a totally unique human experience to shape itself... so, to stare at the actual "description of each unique set of value's, would leave no way to find common value's, or what is of root value to all, that none would dispute, as basic wants or needs of all? i presume this be most what you seek to find out, by way of reducing the equasion to the simplest root form? like any math equasion, reduce to the simplest equasion, or common denominator's, and it becomes redily apparent that human are not so complex after all, except in their desire to use complexity to create an image of intelligence, lol... so, what be of a shared "value", of American's unamimously, as shared in ALL CASES??? food......shared for sure, as many will kill for it in time of famine shelter.....shared health.....shared for sure life.....shared for sure, or all would kill themself right now, and none would have ever lived long enough for a knowing of committed suicide, lol... love......whether it be a person, or new car, or the neighbor's wife, everybody love's something enough to try to have it. safety.....shared, or none would try to protect themself from any harm. respect....shared for sure, so much so that it has come to be insisted and demanded by almost all, lol....not a good practice dignity....too close to respect? not really, for dignity rather means no one wishes to be exposed in vulnerable situation's, like a booger hanging from the nasal passage during a sales presentation, or a blood stain from a menstrual mishap while speaking before and audience... a heard voice.....shared in all cases without fail no pain without consent.....shared in all cases money.....shared for sure, as the total "system of life" has been built upon the ability of it to procure for self. happiness......shared for sure, or no one would care if another made them unhappy. freedom......shared for sure, to move about without restriction, or at least without undo restriction, as could apply to many of the above listed "value's"... other people......shared value for sure, even though many do not realize the misery that would ensue if no other human were around period, lol... it seem's the list could go on for sometime, and the use of the word "value" in itself, does not reduce to the simplest equasion in itself? it seems it would be more beneficial, if one was looking to find "commonality", to reduce all things to the natural "wants" of human's, for to define the line between need and want, then would be the only source of debate, lol..... the word "value's" in itself, denote to the brain more the figments of ideal's, that shrowd the simplicity of the word "value" itself, no doubt this being created by the sheer "want" of human's to make themself complex, to increase the value of oneself in it's own eyes? but one thing be for sure, not one of the things listed above, doth an American NOT VALUE, or any human for that matter, and none wish to do without them? so it cannot be denied that all of these are "shared things of value", to the American poplulous, and as well, common or shared by all human's within the world. so, what was the point of this anyhow? to bring human's together, to see that each have the same basic wants of all other's? well, that would be far too simplistic, and offend the very value human's place on themself, lol... there are no doubt many other things that human's value, beyond the scope of common, but age comes into play, when considering these things, such a religous freedom, sex, life partner preference, and the things of that sort, but still overall, the impact of the root drive to "procure" the above listed "shared value's", hath more power than one might aat first realize... the best way to see the power of each value, is to remove it from the equasion of humanity, and see the most extreme effect? as in food? starvation without, imminent death. these things really do tug more at the subconscious level, dictating the root drive of self preservation within the human species, so to underestimate their power to control human behaviour, toward the better good, or the less than good, would be a grave mistake. to focus on the wants, or value's, that drive human behaviour to shape the belief's as called value's, can never create any unity or commonality, as these will differ for each human born, so will be debateable unto infinity. each be righ in it's own eye's. just one cent I did put limitations on the type of values that I thought would be relavent to the OP. The SHARED VALUES between the Citizens of the USA and their Constitution. in an advanced state of mind, all things are relevant to any subject, if they be spoken from any hearing any subject matter? seems implausible perhaps, but that is precisley the only direction that any civilized species will have to take, to exceed without destroying itself, for the basis principles laid down thus far, within the human minds as facts, are indeed not facts themself but for more than a nana second in time, hence no possible advancement using the current methods of thought, which define themself right back into the same circle over and over and over... indeed you did define the qualifier of YOUR perception of "value", these being related to the "ideals", and how YOU percieve such things as to pertain to the constitution of the USA... THE BASIC PREMISE STATED HERE, IS THAT NO "IDEALISTIC VALUE", APPLY OR PERTAIN TO THE CONSTITUTION AT ALL, IN ANY WAY, PERIOD. IF IT WAS THOUGHT THAT THEY DID APPLY, THEN SUCH PREMISE WAS INDEED FLAWED IN INCEPTION, FOR WHOMEVER BELIEVED SUCH AS FACT. for the word intrinsic, mean as woven into the fabric, of human being's itself, and as such, it can be duly proven that such then cannot EVER APPLY TO ANYTHING THAT CAN EVEN BE CONSIDERED TO BE IDEALISTIC, OR ANYTHING WITHIN THE INTANGILE CATEGORY OF EVER CHANGING HUMAN'S THEMSELVES. in this the constition was SOMEWHAT flawed, or just lacking for the time period now, as it was not PEERED AT, NOR WRITTEN, THRU ANY EYE'S WITHIN THE CURRENT TIME OF SPACE? the framer's made the huge "mistake", if lacking being able to teleport can be defined as a mistake, of trying to do just as you are, trying to DEFINE IDEALISTIC, WHICH BE AN INTANGIBLE, with verbage that could apply to all? THE ONLY VERBAGE, OR WRITTEN WORD, THAT COULD APPLY TO ALL, WOULD BE ANY WRITTEN WORD, THAT WAS TRUE FOR ALL, AT ALL TIMES, IN ALL CASES, THEREFORE IT BEING A CONSTANT? is there a "right and wrong" way, to define? hell no, define as you wish. but each may define AS THEY WISH? defining anything, beyond the present moment, which be to limit, or exclude by pretext, will create infinity looping back to itself repeatedly, since the qualifier is induced to aquire the desired response, so wa lah, a subjective is somehow believed to be as fact forever, when indeed, it was only true for a mere nano second in time? so, why any conclusivity based upon it shall be in error? perhaps it can be explained better... since such be the case, then logic dictate, logic being a platform of CONSTANT, OR CONSISTENCY, that to supercede the emotional based wants as "values" placed by human's, that are triggered randomly, and NOT ALL BEING THE SAME AT ANY ONE TIME IN SPACE, then one must look to what truly are the ONLY COMMON SHARED VALUES, these being what were listed, and perhaps a few more possible, in any atttempts to draw any true conclusivity of facts, as what is not constant for more than a nano second in time, be not wise to consider as fact unto conclusivity, or as NOT CHANGING, for fact is actually only most what DOTH NOT CHANGE, EVER, IN ALL CASES, AT ALL TIMES, so this leaves all else as intangibles, that to even begin to "define", lead to a downward spiral of grasping at what be not even straw's, as straws stay a straw for more than a nano second in time, so are more tangible, or reality, or able to be laid hold to... in many ways, such things as "idealistic value's", are actually more tied to the quantum realm, and following the basic laws of physic's that govern all things. it such is attempted to be broken down by peer review, as is here in this forum, for some conclusive fact to be derived, then there are many TANGIBLE, LOGICAL, REALISITIC, SCIENTIFIC REASONS, why such tactic's will always result in the same conclusivity, of no further advancement or progress, and returning to the same point over and again. for anything to be a shared value, this imply it be shared, OR THE SAME, AT ALL TIMES? if it is shared but SOME OF THE TIME, then "sometime", hath already passed, even now, so no longer still accurate? so, for any inquiry, to be accurate in such matter's, one must find the constants, or the data is old and not accurate, by the time you run it thru your own head, and why the problem's within human civilization still beset humankind. SINCE NONE OF THESE THINGS, DEEMED AS "idealistic" VALUE'S, fall into the category of COMMON SHARED, AT ANY TIME, EVER, BEING THEY ARE NOT CONSTANT, OR APPLYING AT ALL TIMES, then these things as "idealistic value's", CANNOT QUALIFY FOR SHARED VALUE'S, EVER, AT ALL? such is why it was listed, WHAT COULD BE THE ONLY THINGS EVER EVEN BEGUN TO BE DEFINED AS "SHARED VALUE'S" OF ALL OF ANY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLES? of course, YOU, or anyone else, can deem these "idealistic value's", to be of some intrinsic substance, which "idealistic value's" in itself simply a term coined to grasp the intangile, OR UNDEFINABLE IN ROOT, BUT, SINCE THESE ARE NOT SUCH IN ALL CASES, then they would meet no tangible qualifier to even be considered "actual facts" beyond a moment in time, IN OTHER WORDS, ONLY TRUE THIS SECOND, FOR THE NEXT SECOND, ALL DATA HAS SHIFTED, SO NOT THE SAME, SO NO LONGER FACT? these are but figments of illusion BECAUSE THEY CHANGE DAILY, EACH SECOND? for the experience each day, CHANGE THE IDEALISTIC VALUE'S? so, these things actually believed to be REAL TANGIBLES, TO BASE SOME THEORY OR LAW OR AGREEMENT ON, OR WORSE THE BELIEF ABOUT OTHER'S, THE VALUE OF OTHER'S, IN THEMSELF ARE FICTITIOUS, THE VERY ESSENCE OF DEFINING THEM CREATE THE IMPOSSIBLE DEFINITION THAT COULD NEVER HOLD TRUE FOR MORE THAN A NANA SECOND IN TIME! IMPOSSIBLE IN ALL CASES, AT ALL TIMES! what each one READ, REVIEW, PONDER, CONSTRUE, DISTORT, PURPORT, RETORT, CHANGE THE MIX, SO THE VALIDITY, EACH NANO SECOND? which is why i stated one would have to first qualify the limitiation's of the value's, believing you would know not to try to define, what is the infinity changing each second, so therefore of no more "value", thatn the feeling one get from speaking or writing it, and no value can or should be placed upon it, as "VALUE" represent IN THE MINDS OF MORTALS, SOMETHING THAT CHANGES NOT, and these CHANGE EACH SECOND. these are an ever turning wheel, morphing, with no solid fixated point, that to focus on create the very DIVISIVNESS that HIDE WHAT BE THE ONLY ALWAYS TRUE COMMON SHARED VALUES, since these be the only things able to be put into category of "never changing", so true beyond one mere nana second, and are agreeable by all, since all human behaviour display their consistent or constant value, and are not subject to the ever changing eye of the beholder? THE ONLY THINGS THAT COULD OR SHOULD EVER BE DEEMED AS "SHARED VALUE'S", from a root logical basis, could only ever be the intrinsic drives of self preservation, which be what the founding father's tried to institute with the best of their abilites at that time, as applying to all, HOWEVER, in having nearly 250 years to advance in time at our disposal, and having the means to inspect and scrutinize more of all the history of human civilization by way of mass collected data, perhaps there are some things we should be able to see deeper into? as in, TO DEFINE "VALUE'S", FROM AN IDEALISTIC PERSPECTIVE, EVEN FIRST BELIEVING THERE BE SOME COMMON THAT CAN LAID HOLD TO, be our first flaw, in inception, even dating back to the founding of the nation? for idealistic values, deemed to be as such, as explained why there can exist none that be accurate again for more than a nano second, are taken then into the human mind as a "right", to be laid hold to, such creating the first notion, that there ever was SOME DEFINER OR LIMITATION OR LABEL OR NAME OR SPEECH ABLE TO BE GIVEN THAT ENCOMPASS THE "RIGHTS' OF HUMAN BEINGS, from an idealistic stand point. these are days of advanced intelligence, where the insight of what can actually be defined should guide, not the attempt to define what is logistically and scientifically proven as undefinable, and the very attempt to define such matter's, stagnate and stall the free wheel of no definition in it's track, which slow's and even tries to stop humanities advancement in it's tracks... for the very notion to LIMIT, be the first SINGULAR VALUE put into play, BY A SINGULAR VALUE, BEING A SINGULAR HUMAN ITSELF, THIS THEN TAINTED DATA IF IT BE ANYTHING THAT IS NOT A CONSTANT BETWEEN ALL HUMANS, THIS THEN BEING USED TO TRY TO DEFINE, SO LIMIT, SIMPLY BY VIRTUE OF FIRST USING ANY SUCH NOTION? SO IN ESSENCE, IF ANYTHING, IS NOT A CONSTANT BETWEEN ALL LIVING HUMAN'S, AT ALL TIMES, IN ALL CASES, IT CANNOT BE ACCOUNTED FOR IN ANY LAW PRESERVING THE RIGHTS OF HUMAN BEINGS? for anything else is but ONES "OWN' PERCEPTION OF WHAT BE OF VALUE, so containing tainted data, stained with self bias? it is a revolving wheel, and to explain a revolving wheel, that be ever morphing, create in itself, what can barely be laid grasp to, to even begin to put into words, where many or all could understand, lol... an undertaking in itself... for even these words, after they are typed, are no longer valid, for something more is learned from the very typing of them, so then again, why no "idealistic value" can EVER BE PLACED IN A CONSTITUTION, OR A LAW, and it succeed without fail. only the COMMON VALUE'S THAT ARE OF ALL, AT ALL TIMES, IN ALL CASES, CAN BE ACCOUNTED FOR IN A LAW THAT BE SAID TO BE LAID DOWN FAIRLY, AND IMPARTIALLY, SO AS WITHOUT BIAS. so, if anything exceed BEYOND THE BASIC NEEDS OF HUMAN EXISTENCE OF ALL AS EQUAL, WHICH BE WHAT IS EQUAL IN VALUE TO ALL AS A CONSTANT AT ALL TIMES, THEN THERE IS NO TRUE EQUAL? the "eye of each beholder", IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH, to maintain civility and equal advancement, in a advanced species of increased intelligigence, and why the primtive term "melting pot" was the best that could be created at that time... |
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I am an american, my grandparents were all immigrants from Ireland and Italy, and come to this country to provide a better life for themselves, their families... and to achieve their dreams...
WHY? – What did they think was here that was better than anywhere else? How did the idea that America was the place to go? What VALUES drew them here? Americans do not share one value, or system of values - more so they share in the belief that the framwork established by the founders of our country are worth preserving, pursuing - and if need be defending.
If that framework did not represent VALUES, what did it represent? It's a belief in the structure of the country - established by the constitution and refined by the bill of rights - that we are free to pursue our own values within...
Is that structure something ALL American citizens should believe in? Why, what’s so great about it? "all men are created equal" is not a VALUE, it's an "UN-ALIENALBE RIGHT"...
What human characteristics do YOU think give an individual value? I think you post is good, and thought provoking - the only point that I make is that the constituation and the bill of rights are the framework, the base rules, the guidance or boundaries for a country.... the values you have are a construct within that framework... the laws are more value based, but not the constituation or the bill of rights... $.02 
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Gee. I could rant for hours about this topic, but I don't have the time. Firstly, I don not think all men were created equal. I think some are prone to be workaholics and some are downright lazy. I do not think that the constitution gives all of benefits of hard work to those who avoid work at all costs. I think the government should provide "some" degree of support for those who cannot support themselves AND the families of people in need should provide help for family members. I do not think the government has the right to spend money it does not have. I do not think politicians who will say anything to get elected should be able to ignore all their campaign promises without any immediate consequences. Perjury should apply to all. I believe the two party system is broken and neither party represents the average view of the average American. I think the far left is socialist in nature and will destroy and/or bankrupt the US if given the chance with stupid spending and "give away" programs that defy the basic constitutional goal of each "citizen" having the "opportunity" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nancy Pelosi may be the world's dumbest human being. The Constitution is void if it only applies to some and not others but illegals are encouraged to mock the law while citizens are punished for self protection from the same illegals. One of the primary purposes of the Constitution is to give the federal government the DUTY to protect our borders. The complete failure of that charge would give all states and citizens the right to self defense to make up for that failure ... or so it would seem. The illegals represent potential voters to Democrats and cheap labor to Republicans so the US citizen who has to put up with crime and the cost of illegals gets screwed. The far right tries to merge religion with policy in ways not intended by God fearing constitution framers. Some of the far right is guided by large corporations who seek only protection for the corporation but can afford enough money to sway minds with rhetoric. Rush Limbaugh knows nothing about global warming, engineering, or a number of other issues but sways minds as if he was an expert. I, like the framers of the Constitution, believe in fiscal responsibility and personal freedom. The legal system should remove child molesters, rapists, career criminals, and the like from society, not provide never ending income for a bunch of worthless liberal attorneys. Texas leads the nation in executions. I am proud of that fact. This responce has nothing whatever to do with this thread, which happens often in this forum but not often enough to assume that such interruptions are a SHARED American value. "We hold these truths to be self evident." The problem with a rant is the lack of organization. The comments were specifically directed at the changes in American society that we, as a people with Shared values have allowed to occur since the writing of the document. The constitution provides specific directives as to the duties of the Federal government to provide for the common defense and the duty of the federal government to protect our borders while, generally insuring equal protection of the law for all citizens. The shared value of these duties have been corrupted and was a focus of my comments. Specific comments were directed at the unequal treatment of criminals in our justice system by the continued erosion of the "will of the jury" to a swinging door justice system apparently designed to create as much money for the legal system as possible and a major diversion from the quick and fair justice system contemplated in the constitution. They use to hang most criminals within thirty days. Likewise, it is my opinion that the constitution was originally intended to describe a "pay as you go" system without the type of debt now incurred. Your OP left wide open the specifics of why and how we were to discuss the constitution. If you would like to set firmer rules, so be it, but do not disparage a serious response just because it may not align with your opinion. Your comment that it has nothing to do with the thread or the constitution is incorrect. If you do not understand the connection, further explanation can be requested. This is the manner of polite discussion. You are correct, I did not make a connection between your reply and the OP becasue I was looking for something in the post that might have something to do with SIMILARITIES or SHARED qualities between Americans. After a more a careful look, it seems that you are pointing out that Americans have no shared values - Nothing that unites them as a nation. Is that correct? |
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Well, this has been a very small survey of individuals, but it seems the evidence is overwhelming.
Americans have no shared values. There is nothing that unites us as a culture, not even as a society of people who are civil to each other. Nationalism is non-existent - there is nothing that binds us together as a nation. Even the governments attemt to undermine each other. The branches of the Federal government are even at odds with other and dysfunctional. The FLAG? What does it mean to anybody except a piece of cloth with which to condemn others. Let those who have a national sense of belonging fly whatever flag they want - what does it matter? One nation (under God)with liberty and justice for all? We are not a nation built from the union of states, there is no interest in liberty or justice, we are nation of seperatists. Bring home the troups - who is here to support their effort and what are they defending with their attacks. Someone should tell them, the flag has fallen. |
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Well, this has been a very small survey of individuals, but it seems the evidence is overwhelming. Americans have no shared values. There is nothing that unites us as a culture, not even as a society of people who are civil to each other. Nationalism is non-existent - there is nothing that binds us together as a nation. Even the governments attemt to undermine each other. The branches of the Federal government are even at odds with other and dysfunctional. The FLAG? What does it mean to anybody except a piece of cloth with which to condemn others. Let those who have a national sense of belonging fly whatever flag they want - what does it matter? One nation (under God)with liberty and justice for all? We are not a nation built from the union of states, there is no interest in liberty or justice, we are nation of seperatists. Bring home the troups - who is here to support their effort and what are they defending with their attacks. Someone should tell them, the flag has fallen. |
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I wrote:
We know that the founders being white supremacists for the most part did not consider all humans equal. They considered all white humans equal. Redy wrote: That's a pretty broad statement - How do we know that? Is there support for this idea anywhere else in that early Constitution? I wrote: Because of religion the fight is even harder because religion is used to discriminate for more than just race and culture. Redy wrote: But isn't religious freedom A value that all Americans are proud of? The our founders believed in slavery. They believed that whites should own other humans because other humans were less than them. It is in the founding papers signed by all of them. Making them all in agreement with white supremacy Religion is a freedom so doubt but it is used to do terrible things to people. |
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I wrote: We know that the founders being white supremacists for the most part did not consider all humans equal. They considered all white humans equal. Redy wrote: That's a pretty broad statement - How do we know that? Is there support for this idea anywhere else in that early Constitution? I wrote: Because of religion the fight is even harder because religion is used to discriminate for more than just race and culture. Redy wrote: But isn't religious freedom A value that all Americans are proud of? The our founders believed in slavery. They believed that whites should own other humans because other humans were less than them. It is in the founding papers signed by all of them. Making them all in agreement with white supremacy Religion is a freedom so doubt but it is used to do terrible things to people. But whether we agree with one faith or another or agree their behaviors does not override the fact that religious freedom is something the people of this country place in high regard. Could that be a rallying point? Something we all have in common? Could that be a source of National pride? |
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Well, this has been a very small survey of individuals, but it seems the evidence is overwhelming. Americans have no shared values. There is nothing that unites us as a culture, not even as a society of people who are civil to each other. Nationalism is non-existent - there is nothing that binds us together as a nation. Even the governments attemt to undermine each other. The branches of the Federal government are even at odds with other and dysfunctional. The FLAG? What does it mean to anybody except a piece of cloth with which to condemn others. Let those who have a national sense of belonging fly whatever flag they want - what does it matter? One nation (under God)with liberty and justice for all? We are not a nation built from the union of states, there is no interest in liberty or justice, we are nation of seperatists. Bring home the troups - who is here to support their effort and what are they defending with their attacks. Someone should tell them, the flag has fallen. The divisive tactics used by the previous administration and the republicans and us electing a black president have been the splitting forces. Bush put in the divisiveness between rich and poor and the war mongers and those who opposed the war and said "either you are with me or you are the enemy", then in the last campaign the divisiveness of the republicans caused a riff and they continued the pouty "noone listens to us poor republicans and our constituents" keeping the divisiveness and then a black face in the white house brought out all the racist in this country in force. They have been trying to make anything associated with the president "evil" and " anti-American" . You know racists never come right out and say they hate a non white person, they just make them evil in everyway they can get away with to make others believe it too. This country has been in upheaval since 9/11 and we haven't recovered yet. We have to stop all the Islamophobia, the government isn't listening to me aphobia, black president aphobia, gay marriage will end all marriage aphobia, etc... I know I am forgetting a few aphobias being pushed down everyone's throats at this time. The hate mongering and fear mongering is working in this country big time. You know creatures act crazy when they are in fear. |
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I wrote: We know that the founders being white supremacists for the most part did not consider all humans equal. They considered all white humans equal. Redy wrote: That's a pretty broad statement - How do we know that? Is there support for this idea anywhere else in that early Constitution? I wrote: Because of religion the fight is even harder because religion is used to discriminate for more than just race and culture. Redy wrote: But isn't religious freedom A value that all Americans are proud of? The our founders believed in slavery. They believed that whites should own other humans because other humans were less than them. It is in the founding papers signed by all of them. Making them all in agreement with white supremacy Religion is a freedom so doubt but it is used to do terrible things to people. But whether we agree with one faith or another or agree their behaviors does not override the fact that religious freedom is something the people of this country place in high regard. Could that be a rallying point? Something we all have in common? Could that be a source of National pride? Only if people can get over the Islamophobia because that is one religion of this country too. |
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I love Islamaphobia!! and I'll never give Islam a free pass, nor will I respect it, and I certainly will never allow it to rule over me.
I will eat pok chops and drink beer and desire unclothed women!! Thus breaking their rules forever!!
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I love Islamaphobia!! and I'll never give Islam a free pass, nor will I respect it, and I certainly will never allow it to rule over me. I will eat pok chops and drink beer and desire unclothed women!! Thus breaking their rules forever!!
it is our right to be an islamaphopb... one of the freedoms our services members died for |
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Yep!! Just as much as the leftists scream about Islamophobia, we have the right to actively pursue it!!
One persons hate speech, is another persons love speech. Theres nothing like equality!! 
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Yep!! Just as much as the leftists scream about Islamophobia, we have the right to actively pursue it!! One persons hate speech, is another persons love speech. Theres nothing like equality!!
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Edited by
AGoodGuy1026
on
Fri 10/15/10 07:32 AM
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Well, this has been a very small survey of individuals, but it seems the evidence is overwhelming. Americans have no shared values. There is nothing that unites us as a culture, not even as a society of people who are civil to each other. Nationalism is non-existent - there is nothing that binds us together as a nation. Even the governments attemt to undermine each other. The branches of the Federal government are even at odds with other and dysfunctional. The FLAG? What does it mean to anybody except a piece of cloth with which to condemn others. Let those who have a national sense of belonging fly whatever flag they want - what does it matter? One nation (under God)with liberty and justice for all? We are not a nation built from the union of states, there is no interest in liberty or justice, we are nation of seperatists. Bring home the troups - who is here to support their effort and what are they defending with their attacks. Someone should tell them, the flag has fallen. OP: this was not a survey - but an expession of opinion spawned by a question, the responses to which you have your own opinion on. Even if it were a survey, the aknowledged small number of responses would fail to prove "overwhelming evidence" by any statistical measure... that being said... Although the VALUES may be diverse, the FRAMEWORK exists to make it so - meaning, the framework it built (like a road), and the values you are looking for differ from person to person, race to race, culture to culture (as diverse as the cars that drive on the road)... in america - you are free to chose your values (car) and go where you wish (the roads), but be happy in the fact that the framework has been established for you to do so (drive your car/truck/minivan/bicycle) wherever you want, it's your choice... The power of america is freedom, and the right to pursue YOUR happiness whatever it may be, is assured by the framework - as long as it does not hurt anyone else or infringe upon their happiness... pretty simple really. You want americans to have one value system - when forcing a single value system is directly contradictory to the framework - which firmly establishes that the power of the country comes from that very divrese set of values... So I say to you, you are missing the point of America. Freedom of choice and expression - not dictation of a specific set of values. I see civility every day, amongs people of different values, cultures, races, genders, sexual orientations, ect... you choose to focus on the "fringe" that is your choice... and thankfully - the framwork provides that you are free to make that choice.. The flag is representative of the establishment of this framework independent of all other countries, as well as a symbol of freedom and the communication that a place exists on earth where you have the right to pursue your own values - in safety and with equal protection(s) in place... the flag also represents the thousands of lives that have been voluntarily sacrificed fighting for those very beliefs.... You are completely free to fly whichever flag you wish - you can even create your own. Freedom of speech and the right to lawful gathering guarantee this. As a matter of fact, you can create your own militia, create your own flag, assemble and have meetings - even purchase and stockpile wepons legally - all established within the framework of the country... if is is your passion to do so... Unions and states do exist, weather or not you choose to recognize this fact is your opinion - but they are well established. Local power and control are written into law, and are debated virtually every day in this country. The local laws in your municipality, city, county and state have more direct impact on your life than does federal law... if you spend the time to research these facts you will find them to be true... We are a nation of individuals - and are free to act as such... Actually, I am one of the people who support their efforts (our troops) and I hold the flag high - YOUR flag has fallen, that is your choice... MY flag has not, and I know many, many people who feel the same as I do.... Such is our right, as individuals... $.02
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Your OP left wide open the specifics of why and how we were to discuss the constitution. If you would like to set firmer rules, so be it, but do not disparage a serious response Red, I tend to agree with what metalwing says here. There are different ways to interpret the OP, and on first reading of the OP and the responses, I felt that his was the most directly on topic. ------ As far as Islamophobia, it would seem we haven't learned any lessons from Nazi germany. A great way to get a population behind your agenda is to put their attention on some enemy, and then fan the flames of fear and hate to an absurd level of intensity. We should be aware of the threats that exist against us, but the fear and hatred I see towards Islam in our country is self-destructive. |
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Dragoness wrote:
The hate mongering and fear mongering is working in this country big time. Quoted for truth. |
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Edited by
Redykeulous
on
Fri 10/15/10 05:05 PM
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OP: this was not a survey - but an expession of opinion spawned by a question, the responses to which you have your own opinion on. Even if it were a survey, the aknowledged small number of responses would fail to prove "overwhelming evidence" by any statistical measure... that being said...
Of course it was not a survey but the OP did have a specific purpose This thread is meant to be a discussion of values represented in the Constitution that you think all Americans should share. At the end of the brief opener, you will asked to respond to questions of ‘value’.
The intent was further clarified with: Much of the disagreement when discussing these topics comes down to ‘personal’ values. But what about the ‘shared’ values of all Americans?
That sentence made a further discerned the OP by making a distinction between ‘personal’ and ‘shared’ values. In no way was it meant to discount what a person thinks has merit or value. It only asked that people make a distinction between personal and shared as they review the Constitution. That was again clarified with What do Americans consider to be SHARED values AND how does the Constitution represent that value?
Your post: Although the VALUES may be diverse, the FRAMEWORK exists to make it so - meaning, the framework it built (like a road), and the values you are looking for differ from person to person, race to race, culture to culture (as diverse as the cars that drive on the road)... in america - you are free to chose your values (car) and go where you wish (the roads), but be happy in the fact that the framework has been established for you to do so (drive your car/truck/minivan/bicycle) wherever you want, it's your choice...
I do understand what you’re saying but as a stand alone comment it does not answer the question asked in the OP. [What are the SHARED values between Americans and indicate how the Constitution represents that value? However, you continued with: The power of america is freedom, and the right to pursue YOUR happiness whatever it may be, is assured by the framework - as long as it does not hurt anyone else or infringe upon their happiness... pretty simple really.
In this case I think the question was responded to and answered. The ‘Framework’ that you speak of, I called the Constitution. Although we differ in opinion about what the ‘Framework’ might be inclusive of, without the Constitution we would not have the rest of the framework – so your opinion of a shared American value is Freedom (liberty) of individual choice within the limitation of the framework. I appreciate that the, answer in this case, to the OP included opinion AND that the opinion included an explanation of how the answer was derived. You want americans to have one value system - when forcing a single value system is directly contradictory to the framework - which firmly establishes that the power of the country comes from that very divrese set of values...
No, I don’t. I want Americans to understand that Nationalism is an ism that has gone extremist. I want people to be able to identify what we share in common as Americans. Certainly there must be some values to which all Americans agree upon – or what is it that makes us respond to the open ended question of “I am an” with the word ‘American’. Certainly it is not a reference to a geographic location, we don’t go around saying I am Indiana. So what does it mean when we say we are proud to be an American, or if you want to be an American speack English. In fact if speaking English is what an individual values, it perfectly fine to say so, but to answer the question of the OP also required that the individual point to the Constitution and explain how that framework makes English the ‘national’ language of shared value among Americans. So I say to you, you are missing the point of America. Freedom of choice and expression - not dictation of a specific set of values.
We do not have the freedom ‘as individuals’ to determine what American values should be. While each of us is a sovereign individual endowed with the liberty to pursue our own goals, none of us, individually can point to another and tell that person they are ‘unAmerican’ without first understanding what the most basic of shared values among the sovereign individuals of this country are. How can we know what those values are? I chose to use the Constitution as my framework – but I would not have argued if another chose to use the declaration of Independence or even a legal case that ended up becoming part of the law (federal code) that makes the value an intrinsic part of American values. I see civility every day, amongs people of different values, cultures, races, genders, sexual orientations, ect... you choose to focus on the "fringe" that is your choice... and thankfully - the framwork provides that you are free to make that choice..
You have responded seriously, thoughtfully, and adequately to the last post I had made. This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping to get from the “un-American” sentiment I was demonstrating. But only you have felt enough of ‘whatever’ might be called American sentiment (nationalism or pride in country) to correct me. THANKS. The flag is representative of the establishment of this framework independent of all other countries, as well as a symbol of freedom and the communication that a place exists on earth where you have the right to pursue your own values - in safety and with equal protection(s) in place... the flag also represents the thousands of lives that have been voluntarily sacrificed fighting for those very beliefs....
Seriously, how difficult is it for Americans to ‘define’ their shared values when you have simply rambled through them in defense of our national symbol? Yet nearly all the posts voiced only negative comments and complaints based on INDIVIDUAL OPINION. I read each post and tried to find something within it that I could bring out or highlight as a possible ‘shared’ value. I know that people have different ways of expressing their views and that sometimes the value within that expressiveness is hidden by personality. But I found very little that could represent a force united. So I played the part of an extremist, hoping to solicit American Pride. Thanks again! Actually, I am one of the people who support their efforts (our troops) and I hold the flag high - YOUR flag has fallen, that is your choice... MY flag has not, and I know many, many people who feel the same as I do....
The truth is, the flag means little to me – what I invoke as I define myself as an American, are the ethics related to human value and the documents through with those values have come to be reflected in our laws. You have named many of them in your post, but I wonder how many could actually pick them out? Such is our right, as individuals...
We cannot stake a claim of human rights or individual rights without accepting a responsibility for reciprocation. But what reciprocation can there be when individuals cannot define those rights in terms of SHARED valued with every other individual? |
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