"It doesn't matter what the Old Testament might have spoke of"

Means everything. Jesus was the mesiah the old testament spoke of. But people like you refused to believe it. You don't only not believe in God, you're REFUSING to believe it. You say you've "studied" but from your posts it was with a closed mind and a premeditated thought while reading it.

If that's what you believe then you're fooling yourself. You know better.

I'm not "refusing" to believe anything. The biblical mythology simply isn't convincing, and it's also full of what I considered to be utterly unwise teachings.

I don't believe in a Zeus-like God who is appeased by blood sacrifices of animals (or humans in the case of Jesus).

IMHO, that's just utterly sick. We've already dismissed the tales of Zeus as being unwise mythology. Are you "refusing" to believe in Zeus?

The Old Testament is a hateful bigoted book. It clearly preaches religious intolerance and death to heathens and sinners. It was created by men to fool people into believing that their writings are the "Word of God".

You accuse me of "refusing" to believe it. So I'll return to favor and accuse you of falling for a horrible man-made brainwashing scheme.

Open your eyes and LOOK!

Would an all-wise and truly just God ever ask mere mortal sinners to do his judging for him and stone each other to death?

I personally don't believe that such an act would be "all-wise". Nor to I believe that any all-powerful God would be lazy enough, or irresponsible enough, to have sinners judging sinners and stoning each other to death.

Just stop and think about that for a moment. Do you honestly believe that a genuinely all-wise God would do such a thing? Then ask yourself if it makes sense that mortal men would write such a thing KNOWING full well that they won't be there to pass judgments on everyone and thus they get their readers to do their dirty work for them by convincing them that God Himself is asking them to do this dirty work.

Which makes MORE SENSE to you?

As far as I'm concerned it makes NO SENSE to believe that an all-wise and all-powerful God would ask mere mortals to do his judging for him and execute his punishments in his stead.

Only God can know who the real sinners are. And if God is truly all-powerful and all-knowing, then he can just give any sinners a heart-attack or some other fatal condition at his whim. After all, isn't this the SAME GOD you pray to when you would like to be miraculously cured of cancer, etc. An all-powerful, omnipresent, God who knows every thought of every human, should have no problem at all causing sinners to drop over dead whenever he deems this should be their fate. Asking mere mortal humans to judge each other and stone sinners and heathens would be totally unnecessary.

And we can go through this whole book and look at everything in it and ask these same basic two questions:

1. Would an all-wise, all-powerful God truly do and say these things?

2. Is this something that mortal men would write who are trying to control the masses?

If you go through the entire Old Testament asking yourself those two question with an honest open and sincere mind, you will find that #1 never makes any sense, and #2 always makes perfect sense.

Would God have created man, and then create woman as an afterthought?

I don't think so.

Would an all-wise God support male-chauvinism and even write into his book that a woman slave is only worth half as many shekels as a male slave?

I don't think so.

Would an all-wise God even support slavery in the first place?

I don't think so.

Would an all-wise God support the idea of selling your daughters to men as wives?

I don't think so.

Would an all-wise God command that if a man rapes a woman he should have to marry her?

I don't think so.

I could go on and on, but someone just came in the door here so I've got to go for now.

don't say that.... or the Christians might burn The Old Testament after they finish burning the Koran

The Old Testimate was the history of Judea. Shows you what many people know or don't know!

"For whatsoever things
were written aforetime
were written for our learning,
that we
through patience and comfort
of the scriptures
might have hope."

Romans 15:4

that Adam and Eve supposedly tossed Man into sin which is why Jesus had to come...to some The Old Testament is the birth of Christianity

God just might be other people, I have always believed that we never know who we are talking to,,,

I dont think he would take the form of someone hateful or violent, but I dont presume to know in what ways my faith will be tested.

Romans was written by Paul. Paul was a desperate man, he had a dire need of "hope".

Besides look at what's written there in the New Testament! Paul is finding is comfort in the "Scriptures". How ironic that his writings have actually become the "scriptures" of the New Testament. Here's a man who was so desperate he turned to scriptures for hope, and ended up having his own blog becoming part of the very thing he was turning to for hope.

Before you need "hope" you need to be desperate.

Paul must have had some really deep feelings of guilt to be in such desperate need of "hope".

My Scriptural Response::

"And now I stand and am judged
for the HOPE of the promise
made of God unto our fathers:"
Act 26:6 [[Paul]

"Therefore being justified by faith,
we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom 5:1
By whom also we have access
by faith into this grace wherein we stand,
and rejoice in HOPE of the glory of God."
Rom 5:2


"And Paul, earnestly beholding the council,
said, Men and brethren,
I have lived in all good conscience
before God until this day. Act 23:1

And the high priest Ananias
commanded them that stood by him
to smite him on the mouth. Act 23:2

Then said Paul unto him,
God shall smite thee,
thou whited wall:
for sittest thou to judge me
after the law, and commandest me
to be smitten contrary to the law? Act 23:3

And they that stood by said,
Revilest thou God's high priest? Act 23:4

Then said Paul, I wist not,
brethren, that he was the high priest:
for it is written,
Thou shalt not speak evil
of the ruler of thy people. Act 23:5

But when Paul perceived
that the one part were Sadducees,
and the other Pharisees,
he cried out in the council,
Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee,
the son of a Pharisee:
of the HOPE and resurrection
of the dead I am called in question. Act 23:6

And when he had so said,
there arose a dissension
between the Pharisees and the Sadducees:
and the multitude was divided. Act 23:7

For the Sadducees say
that there is no resurrection,
neither angel, nor spirit:
but the Pharisees confess both. Act 23:8

And there arose a great cry:
and the scribes that were
of the Pharisees' part arose,
and strove, saying,
We find no evil in this man:
but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him,
let us not fight against God.Act 23:9

And when there arose a great dissension,
the chief captain, fearing
lest Paul should have been
pulled in pieces of them,
commanded the soldiers to go
down, and to take him by force
from among them, and to bring him
into the castle. Act 23:10

And the night following
the Lord stood by him,
and said, Be of good cheer, Paul:
for as thou hast testified of me
in Jerusalem,
so must thou bear witness
also at Rome." Act 23:11

As far as I'm concerned Paul confirmed what I'm saying right there in Romans 5:1-2. He believes that he is being "Justified by Faith". And via this faith he has access to grace.

So he's clearly already bought into the whole damnation thing. He already bought the idea that mankind has fallen from grace from God and is in dire need of repentance. Therefore he finds this "hope" for grace quite attractive because he already feels hopelessly at odds with God. He's already in a state of desperation and feels that God would otherwise condemn him potentially to hell.

Finding "salvation" in Jesus is meaningless unless a person first feels that they are at odds with their creator in the first place.

Since I have never felt at odds with my creator, not can I think of any just reason why my creator should feel at odds with me, I feel no desperate need for "salvation and grace". It's just a totally necessary concept.

Here you go,...

Paul also wrote:

Rom.3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Since he believed this, it's no wonder that he felt so desperate to find "hope in salvation".

In other words, in this religion, you need to first believe that God is a dastardly jerk who will hurt you if you don't find some way to avoid his wrath.

I would never insult my creator by presuming (or believing anyone who claims) that God is an insensitive dastardly jerk.

In order to believe like Paul, you must first have NO FAITH in God to begin with. You must believe that God is out to get you. You must believe that you can't TRUST God to do the right thing unless you first "Appease" him.

In fact, this notion of appeasing the Gods is common to the all the Mediterranean religious mythologies and folklore. There is nothing at all special about the Biblical picture of God. It's just more of the same. Zeus was also appeased by blood sacrifices, etc.

The whole idea of a need for Jesus to be the "Sacrificial Lamb" to pay for the sins of mankind via his crucifixion would be a totally meaningless concept if this dastardly God hadn't already been associated with "sacrificial lambs" as a way to achieve atonement for sin.

I already reject that idea way back in the Old Testament. I wouldn't insult my creator by believing such sick things about the creator in the first place.

Clearly Paul had already believed this idea of a nasty God who is appeased via blood sacrifices so, for him, the idea of Jesus being a sacrificial lamb to serve this purpose made some sort of sense.

But that's where his desperation arose from. He already believed in a dastardly creator. I wouldn't insult my creator by believing in such nasty rumors to begin with.

So Paul's point of view is utterly meaningless to me, because he had already fallen for the Old Testament. And that's what made him such a desperate man in the first place.