So on that note, how could anyone be as equal as the other when one is sitting on the right hand. That would make God greater, because Jesus is sitting on God's right hand. They aren't standing next to each other or anything like that. Jesus is in God's hand.

We all are Gods, if you'll nottice Jesus never calls God, God. Jesus calls God, father. We are God's, and who we call God is father.

How convenient to have such a contradicting doctrine that allows you to make so many different claims about Jesus and always be able to find something in the convoluted text to support that particular view.

Is Jesus God?

Oh yes! It says right here! "I (Jesus) and the Father are One"

So is Jesus God?

No! It says right here that God raised Jesus and set him on his right hand!



The story of Alice in Wonderland makes more sense.

Just read the other verses i posted, will clearify what this one means.

You're just playing semantic games with no hope of every finding resolution.

The bottom line is quite simple. If you need to get into all sorts of silly semantic games to try to make the story work, then all you're doing is basically confessing that the story can't be made to work.

These trivial detials are truly unimportant for me personally. I don't believe in a god who has himself nailed to a pole to pay for the salvation of man.

Face it, it's just a silly story from the word go.

My highly respected debate opponent, your post, quoted above, addresses none of the issues at all that I have raised. You quoted a completely random passage of the Scriptures, and claim victory.

This I reject as a valid, reasonable, and logical answer to the issues I raised.

So I don't have to answer it, but I will, for I can show you, my one and only true friends, that the above passage is, in and by itself, meaningless, if you consider that God is omnipresent.

1. God is Omnipresent.
2. Which means his physical dimensions are infinite in all three spacial dimensions.
3. To have a right hand, and a right side, is not possible for something that occupies all of the available theoretical three dimensional space. In infinite space "right" is just as not an imaginable or conceivable dimension, as "above", "below", "in front of", "behind", or "not inside of".
4. It is especially impossible for an infinitely large existence, which God is, to have something on His Right, as the right of Him is outside His existence, so to be on the right of Him is equivalent to be outside of physical or any other existence. In other words, anything referred to as being right of God, is a thing that necessarily does not exist.
5. Therefore it is inconceivable that Jesus sit, be placed, or exist in any form on the right side of the Lord God.

This is an unfair request, Cowboy. You can't put the onus on your debating partner to pore through the entire thread, pick your posts out, put them together, and figure out for himself how the pieces fit.

In fact, your debate opponents here, including me, systematically disproved all your posts.

Putting them together in one place won't magically make the whole tapestry of disparate posts work, and have it tell us how your statements are cohesive and true.

In fact, I challenge YOU to put all your posts here, to put them together in one place, and then show us, that your claim of "they will clarify each other" will convince us that we are wrong.

For one thing, "clarification" is not a compelling argument necessarily. It may clarify to us what you were trying to say, but that won't mean that what you are trying to say is not completely false and gibberish.

So please, don't put the onus on us to prove your point; don't assume that once it's clear to us what you say will prove that you have the truth; and please stop the non-referential treatment of your opponents' posts. Please address the issues directly, if you want to be taken seriously. If you talk about unrelated issues in your answers, and you are caught on that, then own up to it. If you can't do it, then please understand that you will be an object of public ridicule, disrespect, and nobody will take you seriously any more here.

I meant this, most sincerely, most respectfully and most seriously.

we are not all friggin' gods. That's completely false, it even goes against the tenets of your religion.

Jesus never referred to God as God because he would have been stoned to death on the spot for it. Have you never seen "Life of Brian"? In Biblical times it was a sin AND a crime to say the word "GOD", it was considered blasphemy, and it was punished by stoning to death (first offence.)

U, my friend, know less and less about Christianity, its dogma, its tenets, its history, as the debate goes on.

If we carry it long enough, you might be saying things that will ban you from all Christian churches and chapels and prayer houses in the land, as well as land you a nice excommunication by the pope, if the trend of your growing ignorance continues.

(Psst... you make no sense because you base your arguments on the lines taken from the Bible... and lines taken from the Bible can only be consistently and successfully used as arguments, when you argue AGAINST the alleged truth of the Bible.)

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/founding_fathers.html

Of those 55 Founding Fathers, we know what their sworn public confessions were. Twenty-eight were Episcopalians, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutheran, two were Dutch Reformed, two were Methodist, two were Roman Catholic, one is unknown, and only three were deists --Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin.

To heap more fuel on the fire of my point, of the 55, the Episcopalians, the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and the Dutch Reformed (which make up 45 of the 55) were Calvinists, for goodness sake! In other words, these weren't just Christians, these were among the most extreme and doctrinally strict Christians around. Of the 55 delegates, virtually all of them were deeply committed Christians. Only three were deists. Even Franklin is equivocal because, though not an orthodox Christian, Franklin seems to have abandoned his deism early in life and moved back towards his Puritan roots. Indeed, it was 81 year old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was actually the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Constitutional convention. We have his appeal on record thanks to James Madison who took copious notes of the whole proceeding. His appeal contained no less than four direct quotations from Scripture. This does not sound like a man who was hostile to the Christian religion.


What The Founding Fathers Said

Political Science professors at the University of Houston wondered if there was something unique about the government of the U.S. They gathered 15,000 quotes from the Founders and located where all of them came from. They then boiled that down to 3,154 quotes that had significant impact on the founding of America. It took them 10 years to finish the project, but they found that the three men most quoted by the Founding fathers were Blackstone, Montesquieu, and John Locke. They also found that the Bible was quoted: 4 times more often than Montesquieu, 12 times more often than Blackstone, and 16 times more often than Locke.

Additionally, 34% of all quotes were from the Bible, and another 60% of the quotes were from men who were using the Bible to arrive at their conclusions. Added together, 94% of all the quotes of the Founders had their origin in the Bible, which shows the importance of God's word in their lives and of this Nation's founding. See Quotes


The Founders and The Bible

America’s initial existence and future survival was originally seen by the Founders to be heavily, if not exclusively, dependent on the successful diffusion of the Bible throughout society. Many evidences of this assertion exist. For example, a year after declaring independence from England, the Colonies began to feel the effects of the British embargo. Consequently, the Continental Congress directed a committee to investigate ways by which Bibles could be secured. The committee made its report on September 11, 1777, stating “that the use of the Bible is so universal, and its importance so great...your Committee recommends that Congress will order the Committee of Commerce to import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere, into the different ports of the States of the Union.” Congress promptly ordered the importation (Journals of..., 1907, 8:734-745). Four years later, as the shortage continued, importation became sufficiently impracticable that Congress was again petitioned for approval, this time to print Bibles in America rather than purchase them abroad. The request was approved and upon completion of the printing, on September 12, 1782, the full Congress not only approved the edition, but their endorsement was given in the front of the Bible: “Whereupon, Resolved, That the United States in Congress assembled...recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States” (Journals of..., 1914, 23:574). Apologetics Press

First of all, I . . . rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins. Samuel Adams, Signer of the Declaration.

To my Creator I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution.

I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ. Gabriel Duvall, U.S. Supreme Court Justice; selected as delegate to Constitutional Convention.

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. Patrick Henry.

I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by his beloved Son. . . . Blessed be his holy name. John Jay, Original Chief-Justice U.S. Supreme Court.

I am constrained to express my adoration of . . . the Author of my existence . . . [for] His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state. Robert Treat Paine, Signer of the Declaration.

I think it proper here not only to subscribe to . . . doctrines of the Christian religion . . . but also, in the bowels of a father's affection, to exhort and charge them [my children] that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness. Richard Stockton, Signer of the Declaration.

These wills represent only a few examples from many with the identical tone. Furthermore, the personal writings of numerous other Founders contain equally strong declarations. Notice:

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God. [6] John Quincy Adams.

Now to the triune God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore p; Amen.[7] Gunning Bedford, Signer of the Constitution.

You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature p; the absolute necessity of a change of heart, and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ p; of salvation thro' His meritorious righteousness only p; and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. [8] Elias Boudinot, Revolutionary Officer and President of the Continental Congress (to his daughter).

You do well to learn . . . above all the religion of Jesus Christ. [9] George Washington.

[D]on't forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made. [10] Jacob Broom, Signer of the Constitution (to his son).

On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts. [11] Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration.

I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. [12] Thomas Jefferson.

I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice. [13] James Iredell, U.S. Supreme Court Justice under President George Washington.

My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! [14] Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration.

I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. [15] Roger Sherman, Signer of both the Declaration and the Constitution.

I shall now entreat . . . you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for "there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12]. . . . f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. [16] John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

The Preambles of all 50 states of the United States:
Happy Trails
Don H.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/founding_fathers.html

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance . Establish this Constitution

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity .. And imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction .

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .. Establish this Constitution .

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ...

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. Establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ..

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties .

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to .enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ..

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love
and Charity towards each other .

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaf firm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.

Are we not the children of God? We are, so therefor we would be God's as well. Does a dog make a kitten, or a monkey, or a bird?..... no he makes a dog.

A public breakdown because he forgot an apostrophy?

"God's", as in "belonging to God".

You mistake Abra's position on that verse for Cowboy's (as in belonging to Cowboy).


So, everyone knows the history of Christianity? Is it really Christianity, or is it Paganism? I know the diferrence, and I will say things that would probrably get me banned from your so-called "churches". But I am fairly sure those that would ban me would not be "true" Christians.


A few points about the so-called "semantics".
I hear complaints about semantics from those playing that game.

"I and the Father am one" If you are gonna take that literally you may as well stop there, it's illogical to think that 2 separate entities are only 1. Otherwise he would have said "I am the Father", no?
So what we're left with is "one" meaning a union, or with the same agenda. Kinda like how a team in any sport can "play as one". Or when a couple are married, they "become one flesh". Is that to be taken that literally as well?

Right hand of God... Seriously? Shall we take this one literally too?
Knowing full well that not one person has seen God and lived, who would even know if he had hands???? I shouldn't need to explain the phrase "right hand man", so I won't...

So if anyone is going to take the Bible and all the passages literally, you should say up front so that wasted time is kept to a minimum.

This is quite logical - if you're Catholic as they seem to be able to invoke the name of many saints, but that's usually frowned upon by other Christian sects. So of those sects don't even include Catholics under the same umbrella as 'Christians'.

Oh - there ya go KerryO, that's the other religion that uses the Bible.

exactly, my eyeball, my mouth, and my nose may be all seperate parts, but they are one in the body of me.

Jesus and God are one in the same manner, they aren't the same being, they are one in the running of this planet, they both have the same goal, same purpose.

Well darn, for a minute there I was about to look up that verse
"We are God's, and who we call God is father." in it's oldest translation to see if the words denoted ownership. You see if there is ownership involved the phrase makes some sence.

"We are God's" as is possessive form we belong to God. But since you've explained it to mean we were created from God - now it makes no sense again.

If that was what Jesus was proclaiming, why was he crusified? I mean if his message was simply, we are god's creation and so He is the father and we are the sons - what was the blasphemy?

Sure it does. God created us all. When women create children, is that child not a person just as the mother would be? So why is it so illogic for us to be Gods?

The blasphemy was for proclaiming to be the only begotten child of God.

Oh and also, Jesus wasn't proclaiming anything blasphemy. They all just saw it as blasphemy.

We are all children of God, but Jesus is the only "begotten" child of God.