when the source is the same (there can be only one God) then one must
look at the changes that have taken place between when the word was
delivered and where it is now.

Once you strip away those changes they are all the same message.

Hi Red,

Thanks for the answer on the beads, the statue and cross part I
understood.

AB: Whole lot of my opinion was expressed when I used the word Church
with Christians. I have a hard time separating the two. I can, however
after thinking about different people who have posted here, see the
error in that assumption.

"THOU SHALT NOT HAVE FALSE GODS BEFORE ME." THIS ISS TAKEN FROM THE J.W.
BIBLE.MY DAD WAS J.W.. I AM BAPTIST.IN THE KING JAMES VERSION IT
SAYS:THOU SHALT NOT JUDGE FOR YE SHALT BE JUDGED.
NOW QUIT JUDGING EACH OTHER
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE ARE ALL EQUAL.WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN FAULTS.LIKE MYSELF I BARELY KNOW
HOW TO SPELL FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OR SHALL I QUOTE R.L.HUBBARD?

How convieniant that the forum gets 'out of hand' when a person posts a
view that is contrary to what a certain group believe.

I have the right to post these views as much as any one else has a right
to post their view.

I have not said any body is 'bad' for their views. I am not attacking
someones faith.

I am not judgeing anyone on here.

As far as my statements... Ignore them if you find them distasteful.
God gave us all free will use it. Only time will prove the right or
wrong of any of us.

well adventure others WERE judging you from the looks of things. i was
not reffering to you at all.
peace bro in the holy name.

Invoking a saint is not idolatry.

Just as asking your mom for advice is not idolatry. It's asking your
mom for advice.

There's a difference between, "Help me Saint X," and "Saint X, you're
deity." Why people get those to confused, I don't know.

Also whoever said that the topic post was too broad and generalizing was
right on the mark.

I did catch that and thank you.

ajh, - if one invokes an angel in prayer is that the same as invoking a
saint?

Invoking any thing is a form of prayer or worship.

An invocation (from the Latin verb invocare "to call on, invoke");

Supplication or prayer. As a supplication or prayer it implies to call
upon (God, a god or goddess, a person, etc.). When a person calls upon a
god or goddess to ask for something (protection, a favour, his/her
spiritual presence in a ceremony, etc.) or simply for worship, this can
be done in a pre-established form or with the invoker's own words or
actions. An example of a pre-established text for an invocation is the
Lord's Prayer.

Therefore if you are 'invoking' a saint you are placeing them between
you and God. (i.e. makeing of them an idol)

The use of such things was not allowed before the Second Council of
Nicaea in 787 AD. Again man intreprets the Word of God to include what
Man thinks it should.

Thanks AB, I was just wondering what ajh thought, because I wondered if
it would be ok to invoke the name of Satan when praying? He is still an
angel, isn't he?

You know I had never thought of that but I believe you are right.

Fallen but not stripped of his angelness yet.

Right on!!

>> Non christians either don't believe in god or have faith in God and God alone

AB, I'm confused by the logic/grammar of this sentence. I think you
meant to say "Some non Christians don't believe in God and some have
faith in God and God alone", which would leave it open for some other
non-Christians to believe in idols.

As it read, it sounded like you were saying 'absolutely no
non-Christians believe in idols, period.'

"Invoking any thing is a form of prayer or worship.

An invocation (from the Latin verb invocare "to call on, invoke");

Supplication or prayer. As a supplication or prayer it implies to call
upon (God, a god or goddess, a person, etc.). When a person calls upon a
god or goddess to ask for something (protection, a favour, his/her
spiritual presence in a ceremony, etc.) or simply for worship, this can
be done in a pre-established form or with the invoker's own words or
actions. An example of a pre-established text for an invocation is the
Lord's Prayer.

Therefore if you are 'invoking' a saint you are placeing them between
you and God. (i.e. makeing of them an idol)"

Semantics.

The point is, speaking to someone is not the same as worshipping them.
Whether they're in front of you in the flesh or merely a spiritual
presence is irrelevant.

Asking a saint for protection is no different from asking a doctor to
cure you. You're not deifying anyone—you're asking for a favor.

To ask for the protection of an angel is the same thing.

I would like to point out that there are plenty of Pagans and Wiccans
out there, like myself, who do not worship the Christian/Jewish God.
Also, a lot of Christian symbols (like the cross, Christmas tree, Easter
bunny, and even the holidays themselves) have roots in Paganism.
"Easter" comes from "Eastre" who was the Goddess of the East, dawn, and
Spring. Even the birth of Christ was changed from the summer to the
winter to take over the Pagan time of Yule- making it easier for Pagans
of the time to convert to Christianity. To the OP, PLEASE do your
research before posting a topic like this. I have nothing against
Christianity, but I have spent quite a few years studying different
religions and it is a hobby of mine.

Bright Blessings!

~Motevia

Hi Mot,

I think AB is talking about people that believe in God but don't call
themselves Christians.
They are a little distinct from people that have a different religion
like Wiccan or any other.

Read what I wrote.

I did not say pagans did not follow their own ways. I said that
christians should not follow those ways as they are not christian
holidays.

What research have you done?

I would like to know what you discovered. Are you following ancient
wiccan or the modern invented one?
Earth mother or the horned crowned one? Or perhaps the mating of the
two?
Danes or Selene?
Sun or moon?
Mithraizm perhaps or Druidizm or Asatru?

Bring no harm...

May peace radiate from you.

I can see that many see Idols differently. But what does the Word of
Yahweh say? Can we just say well it is ok, we mean well or i have always
done it like this?

AB has brought several things to your attention on this thread. many are
not answered? Why you do not want to change your traditions. The
Christmas one Jeremiah 10:2-6 was straight and to the point but it was
like no one seen it or did not like what they saw. hidden EYES.

I am sure you all remember when joshua the son of Nun destroyed
Jericho. I am just taking a few paragraphs that state what Yahweh said
and what the people did. Did the family deserve thier sentence for
disobeying when the stuff they took was just being left any way? How
could this be a sin? Or is The Word of Yahweh for all times and we are
blessed with examples not to do? I believe in the latter. If you follow
Yahweh or your christian bible the same one i read from. Then what is
Yahweh's curses on us for disobedience?

YOU DECIDE


Josh 6:18-19
8 And you, by all means abstain from the accursed things, lest you
become accursed when you take of the accursed things, and make the camp
of Israel a curse, and trouble it.
NKJV

Josh 6:24-25
they burned the city and all that was in it with fire. Only the silver
and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury
of the house of the YHWH. 25
NKJV

Josh 7:10-12

So Yahweh said to Joshua: "Get up! Why do you lie thus on your face? 11
Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I
commanded them. For they have even taken some of the accursed things,
and have both stolen and deceived; and they have also put it among their
own stuff. 12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before
their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they
have become doomed to destruction. Neither will I be with you anymore,
unless you destroy the accursed from among you.
NKJV

Josh 7:13-15
O Israel; you cannot stand before your enemies until you take away the
accursed thing from among you." 14 In the morning therefore you shall be
brought according to your tribes. And it shall be that the tribe which
Yahweh takes shall come according to families; and the family which
Yahweh takes shall come by households; and the household which Yahweh
takes shall come man by man. 15 Then it shall be that he who is taken
with the accursed thing shall be burned with fire, he and all that he
has, because he has transgressed the covenant Yahweh, and because he has
done a disgraceful thing in Israel.'"
NKJV YAHWEH CALLS THIS DISGRACEFUL!!!!!

Josh 7:24-25
4 Then Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, the
silver, the garment, the wedge of gold, his sons, his daughters, his
oxen, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and all that he had, and they
brought them to the Valley of Achor. 25 And Joshua said,"Why have you
troubled us? Yahweh will trouble you this day." So all Israel stoned him
with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them
with stones.
NKJV

Are you sure when you just lay aside a truth that is put before
you and you just say "so What" and continue that you are not putting not
only yourself in jeopardy but your family and all you have to be
burnt/destroyed. If we believe in the prophecies that they are comming
to frutation then we know many people/families and all they have will be
destroyed also. Yahweh's ways are not our ways. His commands are his
ways. And to those who do them is given mercy,forgiveness and Eternal
life. Which are we going to choose? Shalom Miles