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Topic: Homeopathy, and other alternative medicine...
Mikebert4's photo
Thu 01/28/10 06:45 AM
Edited by Mikebert4 on Thu 01/28/10 06:45 AM
I've just stumbled across this fantastic beat poem by Tim Minchin that sums up my thoughts better than I ever could:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s&feature=related

Favourite quotes:

"You know what they call Alternative Medicine that's been proved to work?
..
...
Medicine."

and

"Science adjust it's views,
Based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation,
So that belief can be preserved"

The last one rolls so well - this guy is a genius :)

Comments please!

M


Ruth34611's photo
Fri 01/29/10 12:33 PM
Wow! That was really great......very talented guy! flowerforyou

no photo
Fri 01/29/10 03:25 PM
The poem:

“Storm”

Inner North London, top floor flat
All white walls, white carpet, white cat,
Rice Paper partitions
Modern art and ambition
The host’s a physician,
Lovely bloke, has his own practice
His girlfriend’s an actress
An old mate from home
And they’re always great fun.
So to dinner we’ve come.


The fifth guest is an unknown,
The hosts have just thrown
Us together for a favor
because this girl’s just arrived from Australia
And has moved to North London
And she’s the sister of someone
Or has some connection.

As we make introductions
I’m struck by her beauty
She’s irrefutably fair
With dark eyes and dark hair
But as she sits
I admit I’m a little bit wary
because I notice the tip of the wing of a fairy
Tattooed on that popular area
Just above the derrière
And when she says “I’m Sagittarian”
I confess a pigeonhole starts to form
And is immediately filled with pigeon
When she says her name is Storm.

Chatter is initially bright and light-hearted
But it’s not long before Storm gets started:
“You can’t know anything,
Knowledge is merely opinion”
She opines, over her Cabernet Sauvignon
Vis-à-vis,
Some un-hippily
Empirical comment by me

“Not a good start” I think
We’re only on pre-dinner drinks
And across the room, my wife
Widens her eyes
Silently begs me, Be Nice
A matrimonial warning
Not worth ignoring
So I resist the urge to ask Storm
Whether knowledge is so loose-weave
Of a morning
When deciding whether to leave
Her apartment by the front door
Or a window on the second floor.

The food is delicious and Storm,
Whilst avoiding all meat
Happily sits and eats
While the good doctor, slightly pissedly
Holds court on some anachronistic aspect of medical history
When Storm suddenly she insists
“But the human body is a mystery!
Science just falls in a hole
When it tries to explain the the nature of the soul.”

My hostess throws me a glance
She, like my wife, knows there’s a chance
That I’ll be off on one of my rants
But my lips are sealed.
I just want to enjoy my meal
And although Storm is starting to get my goat
I have no intention of rocking the boat,
Although it’s becoming a bit of a wrestle
Because – like her meteorological namesake -
Storm has no such concerns for our vessel:

“Pharmaceutical companies are the enemy
They promote drug dependency
At the cost of the natural remedies
That are all our bodies need
They are immoral and driven by greed.
Why take drugs
When herbs can solve it?
Why use chemicals
When homeopathic solvents
Can resolve it?
It’s time we all return-to-live
With natural medical alternatives.”

And try as hard as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy-dike.
“By definition”, I begin
“Alternative Medicine”, I continue
“Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That’s been proved to work?
Medicine.”

“So you don’t believe
In ANY Natural remedies?”

“On the contrary actually:
Before we came to tea,
I took a natural remedy
Derived from the bark of a willow tree
A painkiller that’s virtually side-effect free
It’s got a weird name,
Darling, what was it again?
Masprin?
Basprin?
Asprin!
Which I paid about a buck for
Down at my local drugstore.

The debate briefly abates
As our hosts collects plates
but as they return with desserts
Storm pertly asserts,

“Shakespeare said it first:
There are more things in heaven and earth
Than exist in your philosophy…
Science is just how we’re trained to look at reality,
It can’t explain love or spirituality.
How does science explain psychics?
Auras; the afterlife; the power of prayer?”

I’m becoming aware
That I’m staring,
I’m like a rabbit suddenly trapped
In the blinding headlights of vacuous crap.
Maybe it’s the Hamlet she just mis-quothed
Or the eighth glass of wine I just quaffed
But my diplomacy dike groans
And the arsehole held back by its stones
Can be held back no more:

“Look , Storm, I don’t mean to bore you
But there’s no such thing as an aura!
Reading Auras is like reading minds
Or star-signs or tea-leaves or meridian lines
These people aren’t plying a skill,
They are either lying or mentally ill.
Same goes for those who claim to hear God’s demands
And Spiritual healers who think they have magic hands.

By the way,
Why is it OK
For people to pretend they can talk to the dead?
Is it not totally ****ed in the head
Lying to some crying woman whose child has died
And telling her you’re in touch with the other side?
That’s just fundamentally sick
Do we need to clarify that there’s no such thing as a psychic?
What, are we ****ing 2?
Do we actually think that Horton Heard a Who?
Do we still think that Santa brings us gifts?
That Michael Jackson hasn’t had facelifts?
Are we still so stunned by circus tricks
That we think that the dead would
Wanna talk to pricks
Like John Edward?

Storm to her credit despite my derision
Keeps firing off clichés with startling precision
Like a sniper using bollocks for ammunition

“You’re so sure of your position
But you’re just closed-minded
I think you’ll find
Your faith in Science and Tests
Is just as blind
As the faith of any fundamentalist”

“Hm that’s a good point, let me think for a bit
Oh wait, my mistake, it’s absolute ********.
Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works,
Then I will change my mind
I’ll spin on a ****ing dime
I’ll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling
It’s a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And while it’s memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it!

You show me that it works and how it works
And when I’ve recovered from the shock
I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my ****.”

Everyone’s just staring at me now,
But I’m pretty pissed and I’ve dug this far down,
So I figure, in for penny, in for a pound:

“Life is full of mysteries, yeah,
But there are answers out there
And they won’t be found
By people sitting around
Looking serious
And saying isn’t life mysterious?
Let’s sit here and hope
Let’s call up the ****ing Pope
Let’s go watch Oprah
Interview Deepak Chopra

If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo.
That show was so cool
because every time there’s a church with a ghoul
Or a ghost in a school
They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The ****ing janitor or the dude who runs the water-slide.
Throughout history
Every mystery
EVER solved has turned out to be
Not Magic.

Does the idea that there might be truth
Frighten you?
Does the idea that one afternoon
On Wiki-****ing-pedia might enlighten you
Frighten you?
Does the notion that there may not be a supernatural
So blow your hippy noodle
That you would rather just stand in the fog
Of your inability to Google?

Isn’t this enough?
Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex
Wonderfully unfathomable world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
If you’re so into Shakespeare
Lend me your ear:
“To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw perfume on the violet… is just ****ing silly”
Or something like that.
Or what about Satchmo?!
I see trees of Green,
Red roses too,
And fine, if you wish to
Glorify Krishna and Vishnu
In a post-colonial, condescending
Bottled-up and labeled kind of way
That’s ok.
But here’s what gives me a hard-on:
I am a tiny, insignificant, ignorant lump of carbon.
I have one life, and it is short
And unimportant…
But thanks to recent scientific advances
I get to live twice as long as my great great great great uncles and auntses.
Twice as long to live this life of mine
Twice as long to love this wife of mine
Twice as many years of friends and wine
Of sharing curries and getting shitty
With good-looking hippies
With fairies on their spines
And butterflies on their *******.

And if perchance I have offended
Think but this and all is mended:
We’d as well be 10 minutes back in time,
For all the chance you’ll change your mind.

Ruth34611's photo
Fri 01/29/10 03:35 PM
Those are the words, but you really have to hear the guy recite it. And I obviously don't agree with his thoughts, but it's a great poem nonetheless.

Mikebert4's photo
Fri 01/29/10 04:12 PM

Those are the words, but you really have to hear the guy recite it. And I obviously don't agree with his thoughts, but it's a great poem nonetheless.


I must hold my hand up to being someone who applauds pieces like this - because, to me, they ring true.

Also, that lovely line near the start:


And across the room, my wife
Widens her eyes
Silently begs me, Be Nice
A matrimonial warning
Not worth ignoring


I've seen that look, and I'm guilty of the very rant Tim's on blushing

I'm also a firm advocate of the 'I'm insignificant' view - how can one be truly humble (if humbleness is even a virtue) when one believes that we were placed here specially, specifically and for a definite purpose?

Obviously, I'm not intending to offend, these are just my views on the whole subject.



Ruth34611's photo
Fri 01/29/10 04:17 PM



I'm also a firm advocate of the 'I'm insignificant' view - how can one be truly humble (if humbleness is even a virtue) when one believes that we were placed here specially, specifically and for a definite purpose?




Wasn't it you that claimed you have an astronomical ego? :tongue:

I'm just sayin.....:wink: laugh flowerforyou

Mikebert4's photo
Fri 01/29/10 04:35 PM




I'm also a firm advocate of the 'I'm insignificant' view - how can one be truly humble (if humbleness is even a virtue) when one believes that we were placed here specially, specifically and for a definite purpose?




Wasn't it you that claimed you have an astronomical ego? :tongue:

I'm just sayin.....:wink: laugh flowerforyou


Oh yeah, but when you're as awesome as me, it's not hard to be humble too :wink: rofl


flowerforyou

Ruth34611's photo
Fri 01/29/10 05:03 PM





I'm also a firm advocate of the 'I'm insignificant' view - how can one be truly humble (if humbleness is even a virtue) when one believes that we were placed here specially, specifically and for a definite purpose?




Wasn't it you that claimed you have an astronomical ego? :tongue:

I'm just sayin.....:wink: laugh flowerforyou


Oh yeah, but when you're as awesome as me, it's not hard to be humble too :wink: rofl


flowerforyou


laugh :thumbsup:

redonkulous's photo
Sat 02/06/10 10:10 AM
Homeopathy . . . there's nothing to it . . . literally.

Abracadabra's photo
Sat 02/06/10 03:35 PM
Edited by Abracadabra on Sat 02/06/10 03:36 PM
As art is makes for an entertaining poem. As philosophy it's just plain stupid. Science neither suggests nor implies an atheistic or non spiritual reality. That's a totally false myth in and of itself.

It's also rather oxymoronic that this poem reject "natural healing" methods whilst praising commercial medicine. Where does the idiot who wrote the poem think commercial medicine gets its ingredients? laugh

More to the point, isn't denouncing natural healing a bit redundant? Just look at what the universe has done (without the help of mankind and science), it has created, from total scratch, biological beings that are marvelous systems that can indeed repair themselves to a genuinely awesome degree. To scoff at natural healing is so demonstrate the epitome of ignornance.

Science and scientific inquiry has basically confirmed everything that the mystics have ever claimed that spirit should be. So how anyone can think that science should support a renounciation of spirituality is beyond me. That's just a display of the empitome of stupidity as far as I can see.

Being both a scientist and a spiritualist I see these kinds of attacks on spirituality via a misunderstanding of scientific knowledge to be nothing more than ignorance gone wild.

Should be posted in "Art" or "Creative Writing", as philosophy it has no merit whatsoever. Not to mention that it drastically even misrepresents what science even stands for.

Ladylid2012's photo
Sat 02/06/10 03:39 PM

Homeopathy . . . there's nothing to it . . . literally.


It's a beautiful thing...

Ruth34611's photo
Sat 02/06/10 09:57 PM


Should be posted in "Art" or "Creative Writing", as philosophy it has no merit whatsoever. Not to mention that it drastically even misrepresents what science even stands for.

:thumbsup: drinker


redonkulous's photo
Sun 02/07/10 12:32 PM
Homeopathy and alternative medicine does not equal natural healing IMHO.

A good example is acupuncture. We can take a control group that gets sham acupuncture where either the needles aren't really needles and/or also are not placed on the spots (meridians) called for in the "alternative medicine" practice and get the same results that hover at placebo effect.

Should we call that natural healing, I am curious?

Ladylid2012's photo
Sun 02/07/10 12:37 PM
Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here..everything else is heresy. I have healed myself with my mind...
Someone want to come and tell me that isn't possible? How could one tell me my experience isn't real...

Ruth34611's photo
Sun 02/07/10 12:40 PM

Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here..everything else is heresy. I have healed myself with my mind...
Someone want to come and tell me that isn't possible? How could one tell me my experience isn't real...


Precisely.

redonkulous's photo
Sun 02/14/10 08:28 AM
Edited by redonkulous on Sun 02/14/10 08:29 AM

Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here..everything else is heresy. I have healed myself with my mind...
Someone want to come and tell me that isn't possible? How could one tell me my experience isn't real...
I think the scientific minded of us would merely hold a higher standard to the word knowledge.

By a scientific standard you do not know you healed yourself of anything. You have conjecture with no data to back up said conjecture.

Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here

I disagree, what we can go by and should go by is what is demonstrable.

Homeopathy is demonstrably ineffective. It quite literally does nothing. If you dilute a substance until all active ingredients can be safely said to no longer exist, then its just the solution used for dilution.

Statistical significance in any medical trial is set just above the placebo effect, which is where alternative medicine lives (at or below the level of placebo).

Alternative medicine would not be alternative if it was shown in large RCT's to be significant, it would just be called medicine.

RCT = Randomized Clinical Trial.

Most RCT's for CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) show no significance, the ones that do are small and do not have proper controls in place for bias, where such controls are put in place the significant drops down to placebo effect or even below if double blinded as it should be.

Personal experience is subject to many cognitive bias's, over the course of hundreds of years of scientific research we have found ways to remove such bias, and when such bias is removed and a given practice is shown to have no efficacy then it should be abandoned.

A good site to get real facts about CAM is http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

EquusDancer's photo
Sun 02/14/10 12:43 PM


Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here..everything else is heresy. I have healed myself with my mind...
Someone want to come and tell me that isn't possible? How could one tell me my experience isn't real...
I think the scientific minded of us would merely hold a higher standard to the word knowledge.

By a scientific standard you do not know you healed yourself of anything. You have conjecture with no data to back up said conjecture.

Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here

I disagree, what we can go by and should go by is what is demonstrable.

Homeopathy is demonstrably ineffective. It quite literally does nothing. If you dilute a substance until all active ingredients can be safely said to no longer exist, then its just the solution used for dilution.

Statistical significance in any medical trial is set just above the placebo effect, which is where alternative medicine lives (at or below the level of placebo).

Alternative medicine would not be alternative if it was shown in large RCT's to be significant, it would just be called medicine.

RCT = Randomized Clinical Trial.

Most RCT's for CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) show no significance, the ones that do are small and do not have proper controls in place for bias, where such controls are put in place the significant drops down to placebo effect or even below if double blinded as it should be.

Personal experience is subject to many cognitive bias's, over the course of hundreds of years of scientific research we have found ways to remove such bias, and when such bias is removed and a given practice is shown to have no efficacy then it should be abandoned.

A good site to get real facts about CAM is http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/


I tend to be skeptical in what scientists decide work and don't work herbally, especially considering the $$$$ involves with modern medicine, herbal, homeopathic, and other complimentary medicines.

I personally find herbs do work for me, and because because I'm open to it, probably better then modern medicines. Even accounting the many modern medicines are super-concentrations/derivitives of herbs, like aspirin, and digitalis for heart conditions.

Herbs and homeopathy, for me, work. I've also seen them work on my animals. And the animals certainly don't know one way or the other what it is I'm giving them.

But even with modern medicines, there's been enough studies done on the placebo affect that so long as people think it's the pill they want, they'll get over whatever they're sick from.

no photo
Sun 02/14/10 02:12 PM

Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here..everything else is heresy. I have healed myself with my mind...
Someone want to come and tell me that isn't possible? How could one tell me my experience isn't real...



To avoid misunderstanding, I want to be clear that my first comments are related only to this part, only in a general sense:

Really all we can each go by is our own experiences here..everything else is heresy...How could one tell me my experience isn't real...


In general, this is not simply a matter of our experience, it is also a matter of us drawing conclusions from our experience. As someone who dislikes falsehood, I believes its appropriate for me to comment on other people's beliefs when the conclusions they draw are not justifiable - especially when based on blatantly irrational or contrary-to-reality thought processes. I think its important to pay attention to the difference between our actual experiences, and the conclusions we draw from our experiences. To say that you have healed from an affliction may be a matter of experience, but to claim a particular cause for that healing is a conclusion.


---------------------------------------------------------

As far as 'healing yourself with your mind', I don't disagree! There are many different things you might mean by this - but it appears to me that the mind/body is naturally arranged to heal itself. We always heal ourselves, even if we get a lot of assistance from other sources, its still up to our own bodies to do the healing, and I would agree that our minds often play a role as well.

---------------------------------------------------------

As far as homeopathy and many other perceived cures, it is a very common for people to wrongly assume that an action taken before a healing result caused the healing result. This is simply just wrong. I made this mistake just a few months ago (described below).

So lets say: You have a problem. You do something to cure it. You get better.

You have NO IDEA if you would have gotten better at that time WITHOUT doing the thing that you did to cure it. You simply don't know. The best way that I know to test the idea that 'getting better' MIGHT have be facilitated by 'the thing you did' is to do a controlled trial.

I am NOT a fan of our dominant medical system, and I despise the way that pharmaceutical companies push drugs for issues that would be better addressed by lifestyle changes - but on the other hand making unjustified healing claims about a healing method (such as the homeopathy pills) that has been proven to be "no more effective than placebo" is morally wrong, in my book. So both 'mainstream medicine' and 'alternative medicine' are guilty of bad practices.


As for my own idiotic conclusion-jumping: just a few months ago I tried tea trea oil on some inflamed skin, and it got better. I wrongly concluded that the antiseptic qualities of tea tree oil was the reason for this, and wasted a good deal of money on tea tree oil. Actually, I looked it up online, too, and other people also believed that tea tree oil was the 'cure'.

It turns out that the inflamation was eczema, and that it is the moisture preserving qualities of tea tree oil, not the antiseptic qualities which helped it to get better. Therefore, any old oil works just as well!

no photo
Sun 02/14/10 02:18 PM

I tend to be skeptical in what scientists decide work and don't work herbally, especially considering the $$$$ involves with modern medicine, herbal, homeopathic, and other complimentary medicines.


I think its good to be skeptical on all counts


I personally find herbs do work for me,


I've use herbs to clear my sinuses and salve a sore throat.


But even with modern medicines, there's been enough studies done on the placebo affect that so long as people think it's the pill they want, they'll get over whatever they're sick from.


I think its awesome for a person to knowingly take advantage of the placebo effect. That may sound like a contradiction in terms, but I think they've found that conscious belief is not at all necessary for the placebo effect to occur - simply going through the motions associated with a placebo treatment process can somehow facilitate healing.

redonkulous's photo
Wed 02/17/10 09:24 PM
Edited by redonkulous on Wed 02/17/10 09:28 PM
Herbs may have active ingredients, please understand the difference between ANYTHING with active ingredients, and homeopathy.

One has chemical compounds which have been shown to react. (perhaps in ways unexpected due to the lack of significant well structured and properly blinded trials)

The other has purposefully been diluted to the point where no active compound other then plain old water exists.

Homeopathy, there is literally nothing to it . . .

The whole, "I don't trust big phrama becuase money is involved gambit" is really pretty lame.

Careers in science are made by making examples of bad science. That is not to say that most trials end in a positive true conclusion. They don't. Preliminary trials are extremely poor at arriving at the truth. Most truth is arrived at via MANY MANY MANY small or medium trials, having meta analysis performed, trends analyzed, and several large trials spawned from this data, and only then a proper conclusion reached if you get consistent and confirming data to back it up.

For science to uncover truth takes time, and mistakes are made along the way, but the method and the system are self correcting, for every example of fraud or bad science out there you will find 10 examples of the self correction that leads to truth and subsequent innovation. Its psudo-science that is dangerous, it gets pushes based on appeals to emotion and personal experience, it abuses the cognitive bias of humanity, its the snake oil salesman that never cites his research.

Seriously, if you care then follow the sciencebasedmedicine blog. Proper medical researchers spend quality time to help educate the public.

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