Perhaps if you were to have a personal experience where one of these "mistakes made along the way" involved you and your health you would have a different perspective.

When big pharma benefits at my risk, it isn't so lame anymore.

Excuse me..I have and do know how to heal myself. I have and do..do it as a lifestyle. I don't need scientific proof of anything. My ability to heal myself is NOT scientific, it has nothing to do with science. What is demonstrable is the fact that I can and do heal myself and others...it may not be demonstrable to you, it is to me.
If your ever in my town let me know, I would be delighted to to do a demonstration for you.

Redonkulous, I'm delighted to read most of your comments in these threads - I believe our culture benefits greatly from the promotion of critical thinking and a greater emphasis on empiricism.

As far as...



...I don't distrust them just because money is involved, I distrust them because they exist to make money, not to heal or help people. Making money and prioritizing shareholder interests are the 'ethics' by which these companies operate. I don't trust them because they market their products in ways which are obviously designed to prey on the fears of potential customers. I don't trust them because they do everything they legally can to obscure potential side effects. I see them as both a benefit and a danger so our society - the danger coming from the previously mentioned and the promotion of a lazy, convenience-oriented pill-popping approach to 'health.'

I think its foolish to set these two approaches (pharmaceuticals and, say, homeopathy) together as if we had to choose between one of two choices. The flaws of one don't justify the flaws of the other. The best solution in some circumstances might be a pharmaceutical, in others it might be changes of habit/lifestyle.

I've personally never had issues with science. I had a fabulously awesome doctor for my heart surgery, and had no problems whatsoever.

However, I also agree with massagetrade, having experienced being part of the Celebrex and Vioxx related recalls. They throw things out quickly, advertise up the wazoo, make bukus of bucks, and then oops, mistakes made. They may have to pay out in lawsuits in the end, but they still come out ahead.

Now, I'm going to come across all Tim Minchin here and I want to be perfectly clear that none of this is intended to slate you, or anyone else personally. I totally, and completely respect that others do not think as I do, in truth I revel in it - where would intelligent debate be without people who disagreed with one, preferably respectfully.

What I'm going to say is that beyond a fairly meagre placebo effect, people -cannot- physically heal themselves with the 'power' of thought alone. Standing an argument on the basis that no-one is entitled to question your beliefs is crude, especially when the argument you push is designed and intended to question the beliefs of others.

I'm happy to agree that we all need to go by our own experiences, but when searching for truth we must always be extremely wary that the human animal is genetically predisposed to accept, indeed to search for, simple rules and patterns in their experiences - if you've experienced something which is difficult or complicated to explain scientifically, then the predisposition is to explain it away in a simple and easy to grasp manner - the 'God did it' clause if you will.

However, if we look back. Lightening was scary and inexplicable once, yet now we understand how and why it forms. Magnets amazed, bemused and scared us for a while, (someone once said it was proof that 'rocks could love too' - isn't that a lovely sentiment?) but again, we move forward and discovered how and why magnetism exists. In the words of the posted poem



Sure we don't fully understand some things. That's the joy of scientific enquiry, that we -don't- know everything but by golly we're going to try and learn.

Isn't it sad when people assign any particular phenomenon with the 'privilege' of being unexplainable?
Isn't that saying that we as a species cannot possibly progress our knowledge to encompass these 'inexplicable' cases?
Or, to top that for a depressing thought, isn't it worse to then claim to have the answer to the cause of said phenomenon?
Wait, lets go one better and not only claim to have the answer to said phenomenon, but also that the answer we claim is somehow immune from the scrutiny and criticism of our peers? That somehow, their honest and well-intended questioning of this claimed answer is a personal affront, an assault on our rights?



All that and I didn't say arrogant once...


...


...Damm!




Mint can clear your sinuses. Various Tea infusions can calm and relax you. We derive asprin from bark and penecillin from a fungus. We watch our bodies form clots and scabs and eventually new skin when we cut ourselves. We see bones heal when broken. Sleep is a unparalleled healer of everyday ills.

What's unnatural about any of that? I don't even need to state that I 'believe' in them, I need hold no faith, these things just simply work. It doesn't matter how hard you mentally reject the notion, it doesn't matter how little you 'believe' in it - if you drink too much alochol you -will- get drunk. It's a demonstrable, quantifiable fact.

Have Homoeopathy, Faith-healing, acupuncture, lucky charms, or any thing else of similar nature demonstrated that same level of certainty? Well, they've been tested and retested and unfortunately for their advocates they've been, and continually are being proven to have an effect on par with similarly administered placebos. That would be no significant measurable effect.

Now, isn't it really, horribly, terribly sad that when faced with strong, repeatable and abundant evidence against our claim to the answer to a particular phenomenon, we can still claim that our position is outside the bounds of the evidence to criticise?

How can people stand up, head held high, shoulders back and simply shrug off the life's work of literally millions of brilliant, highly intelligent and hard working scientists and researchers who are giving, and will continue to give their very best efforts to furthering the knowledge and understanding of the human race. How can people shrug off studies they've never read, science they sometimes don't even understand, and still stand tall and claim themselves to be more virtuous than the ones toiling endlessly to quantify and distil a real answer?


Why is Faith like this a virtue?

If I get passionate about anything, if anything really lights a fire under me, it's this.



*cough*
and that's why I like Tim Minchin's poem.

"What I'm going to say is that beyond a fairly meagre placebo effect, people -cannot- physically heal themselves with the 'power' of thought alone. Standing an argument on the basis that no-one is entitled to question your beliefs is crude, especially when the argument you push is designed and intended to question the beliefs of others."


bullshiit


I never said I do these things with ONLY my mind..it is the scientific thinkers who say such things. I stated what I do IS NOT scientific.

I don't argue, I don't push.. I state my thoughts and I move on..there is always one who comes in and questions me and tells me MY beliefs are not possible. One questioning my beliefs..is a mute point..because they are MY beliefs.

..experience is the only thing that matters..everything else is heresay, as my experiences are to you.

On your last point: Granted, and conceded. As my views are no doubt heresay to you, and as they should be. If you believe something, and hold it to be true then you've every right to push and voice your opinion - doing so is the very heart of the scientific process you claim no part in.

I'm truly sorry if I seemed to be directly attacking you. I will question your beliefs, I may even do so passionately at times, but honestly and truthfully I respect them as yours. I've no right to tell you what to think, or in what to believe. Doing so would demonstrate the arrogance I so vocally abhor.

The greatest gift we have is our ability to disagree with one another.

I live for the debate, really, I have my views and I hold them close. I've shed many and I've picked up others. I've turned (to quote Tim again) on a dime.


Jeese Louise, I'm getting very aloof and philosophical tonight :s

As I respect your beliefs....
The ONLY time you will ever see me fire back in these threads is when one tells me that that my lifestyle choice or belief system is wrong.
Is a true sign of an inflated ego to tell another about them self.
Which is why I don't debate..matters not really what another thinks of my life choices, or yours. Everyone should experience the freedom of being them self that I am so fortunate to have.
I'm here to have fun, not argue. If I want to argue, I'll have a conversation with my oldest son.. : )

I'm just twisted in that a heated, passionate debate is something that I do find rather fun :) It's also a well-documented fact that I might have a rather over-inflated ego in certain situations of this nature

eh, you won't find a shortage of people to debate with here...
I choose not to expend much energy into attempts at convincing others to think like me. Well, keep that ego in check. An over inflated ego can be most annoying. I sure hope no one wants to banter that point with me...

Peace bother

Mikebert,

Its refreshing to read your posts; I feel you have contributed greatly to this conversation, and hopefully to the thought processes of some of the silent readers. I hope your comments on mint, aspirin, and the like make it clear to everyone that this is not an attack on so called 'natural' methods of healing by any means.

I have one bone to pick:

Mikebert4 wrote:



I understand that part of what you are saying is that 'our opinions about the effects of some substance generally don't change the effect of the substance', but I'm not sure what else you might mean by this sweeping statement, quoted above.

It seems to me that there are many cases where 'how/what one thinks' is the determining factor in whether one's physical condition improves or gets worse. Our thinking can have a tremendous influence on the effectiveness of our immune system. It seems to me that people can think themselves into states of extreme anxiety, sustained for weeks, which can be extremely disruptive not only to the immune system but also to the digestion/absorption of nutrients that people need to heal. You mention the healing power of sleep - our thinking can effect the quality of our sleep - and even lead to a severe loss of sleep that will in turn lead to illness.

For the mentally and emotionally healthy, healing processes may occur without any need to concern ourselves with 'thinking' - but for the mentally and emotionally unhealthy, thought patterns may be the 'determining factor' in whether one gets well on the physical level.

Obviously, you are literally correct: to battle an infection (without antibiotics, say), the immune system must be activated - which is not 'the power of thought alone', though it may be thought + our natural immune response. Repairing tissue damage is not 'the power of thought alone', but it may be thought + nutrition + natural tissue repair mechanism.

However, I hold that in some cases, the nature of one's thinking can be the single most important factor in healing one's physical ailment.

Ladylid



I can't help but wonder what you mean by the word 'scientific'. I trust that you do a lot of goodness in the world by helping people to heal, but I believe that a person can indirectly do 'wrong' in the world as a consequence of having a very strong allegiance to certain worldviews. Consider the case of children who suffer and even die, having been denied medical treatment because of their parent's religious beliefs.

This is indirectly a moral issue, and we are all in this together as a society and as a species.

It seems that maybe your worldview does not rest on scientific explanations, and maybe your way of understanding 'that which you do' does not require a scientific viewpoint - but are you claiming that the actual mechanisms by which your actions facilitate healing are beyond the domain of evidence-based rational investigation? Forever? If so, wouldn't that be an extreme form of arrogance to have this position?




Are you saying there is no point in questioning your beliefs? Wouldn't that be a symptom of closed mindedness?

I am very happy that people come on here and question the beliefs of others. In a very indirect way, this leads to better decisions being made which effect all of us.




I strongly disagree. For one, how one goes about interpreting experience can be more important that experience itself, in my opinion. Also, 'hearsay' from reliable sources that have obtained their evidence with deliberation and care immediately gives us access to more 'experience' than we can possibly obtain in several lifetimes.

As a Natural Medicines Practitioner w/ an incredibly high, clinical success rate that spans three decades now?

... I must 'represent' here!

First of all, I employ soooooooo many modalities, homeopathy being the very, extreme least of them.

I get so irritated when ALL Natural Medicine is erroneously referred to as Homeopathy.

Blech! Homeopathy is of rare efficacy, EVER, despite the Royals throwin' their weight behind it - and even having a hospital thereof, Mike. IMHO!

I've treated many Homeopathists in my clinic in London. All of them were completely disenchanted w/ the method and were just going through the motions by now - paying the bills.

My only real, measurable success w/ it has been w/ infants that were at a distance and in extreme emergencies. OK, and I do sometimes like the eye and ear drops.

Secondly, as a scientist also, I brought terrific prejudice against many 'vibrational' remedy modalities, including homeopathy.

Still, I tested them all extensively, while making best attempts to suspend my disbelief.

Basically, They all purport to 'heal' by wave therapy, not actual 'ingredients embodied/contained', but a facsimile thereof.

Perfect way to run an experiment imho, against the hypothesis, to ensure not leading the experiment ones own way!

And ... Homeopathy is the ONLY vibrational that has failed miserably, consistently!

I've had huge success w/ Flower and Gem Remedies, Colour and Notes Therapy, Magnets, Gem Stones, Magnets, Aroma Therapy ... on and on, among others. (Though Essential Oils and Magnet Therapies have been scientifically quantified, and work on a physiological/bio-organic as well as wave principle.)

In France, Aromatherapy is practiced by those that hold Doctorates. I've had some of my very best results working w/ various Essential Oil Therapies incorporation.

In test studies, when folks are injected w/ radio isotopes, the residue has been proven to settle at, and therefore mark, the 'Bonham Cells' - also known as Acupuncture points. Quantified!

Many pharmaceuticals have their origins, and even ingredient base, in Herbal Medicines. Destruction of the Amazonian rainforest is currently severely compromising sourcing many of these pharmaceuticals.

Doctors and Dentists and Chiropractors have quantified and documented my work through various measurement apparatus.

Lastly ... We do our best when we incorporate the best from Natural and Western Medicine.

(W)Holistic Medicine - Why limit and throw the baby out w/ the bath water?

I agree with this, for many reasons. Just for clarity, and not that you implied otherwise, but I'm pretty sure this hasn't happened in this thread: no one has confused homeopathy with 'natural medicine' nor 'alternative medicine'.

It is interesting though that the 'alternative health' community (which includes me) has so many people who are eager to embrace... well, just about anything at all, indiscriminately, including homeopathy.



...aaaand there are marathon runners who drink coffee. There are people in the military who watch cartoons. This is relevant how?

Just about anybody can get a doctorate if they really want to. I do hope no one thinks that eight years of post-high school education, by itself, automatically gives value to one's opinions.





Quoted because I think this is important.

You both (Dancere and massagetrade) make some very interesting points - I'm currently shipping a new wardrobe into my room but hold tight and I'll explain myself further verry shortly

Ok - Stuff all officially rearranged

Dancere, firstly thanks for coming in and speaking up - it's always a pleasure :)

But if you'll allow me to just quickly run through and dissect some of the points you make - as ever, I don't mean to be confrontational or to in any way insinuate that you're world-view is sub-standard or second rate. I'm simply going to state my opinion, and where I can, back it up with citation. I'm more inviting you to argue my points than I am specifically trying to debase yours.

Disclaimer over,



Me too. That would lump a fair portion of tried and tested medicine into the same pot as acupuncture, scent therapies, and yes, Homoeopathy. I'm going to pull from Tim's poem again and point out that alternative medicine that has been proved to work isn't alternative at all - it's medicine.



Indeed they do, UCL Hospitals include the Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital

http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/Our+hospitals/Royal+London+Homoeopathic+Hospital.htm

I'm going to do a lot more reading before I can state my opinion either way on this - if there's enough clinical weight behind these complimentary treatments to set up a training hospital, then I'm in no way qualified to refute any specific claim.

However (there's always a however), I notice two things - firstly that they go to great pains to specify that this is -complimentary- medicine and that the maladies they aim to relieve are comparatively minor.. for example the list of sample Musculoskeletal conditions includes (non-exhaustive selection):

- Kneck, Back, Shoulder, Leg, Hip, Knee, Sciatic and Peri-articular pain.
- Repetitive Strain Injuries
- Soft Tissue Injuries
- Fasciitis and tendonitis
- Bursitis
- Osteoarthritis
- Headaches

http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/GPs+healthcare+professionals/Clinical+services/Homeopathy+%28Royal+London+Homoeopathic+Hospital%29/Homeopathy+-+Musculoskeletal+Medicine+Clinic/

They also state that conventional treatment may also be prescribed. Funnily enough, Occupational Therapy, Conventional Painkillers, Physiotherapy cope with a fair few of the above without any special alternative treatments.

My current hypothesis is that these alternative medicines may well have some value in symptom-relief and hence serve in a complimentary role most amicably.



Radio isotopes will gather in and around several key points in the body - naturally some of these points will correspond with Acupuncture points. However, a quick google search produces no results for 'Bonham Cells' - can you cite literature that supports your statement?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=odj&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=%22Bonham+Cells%22&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=





I can't agree more, that's why we need to strip the veneer of mysticism and mystery from alternative medicine - some of it, maybe even most of it, may well have a quantifiable beneficial effect. However, wouldn't it be better for everyone if we fully understood the effective treatments and their workings, and throw out the ineffectual?

Again, if we can somehow prove that a given 'alternative' medicine has real benefits it very quickly stops becoming alternative. Look at Hypnosis and Physiotherapy to name a couple.


Now, massagetrade, you're up



I was wrong to make my statement so sweeping. I spoke in passion and frustration and such a statement suited my argument. It was hypocritical and immature.

If I were given a chance to revise the statement, I would say instead that one's belief or disbelief in a given, proven, treatment should not, and does not, affect it's efficacy.



I see what you're saying here and largely agree, however, I'm worried some may seize upon this paragraph as concession that thought alone can be the difference. What I believe you're drawing upon is that the emotionally unhealthy, the depressed, stressed or both can show, and have been demonstrated to show a slower recovery from illness and a higher risk of suffering more maladies. This is a fairly ubiquitous result in studies and I concede it as a point.

What I'm not willing to concede is that the mental state alone is the factor resulting in a slower or less efficacious immuno-response. The mental state results in different lifestyle choices, different behaviours, possible sleep disruption and as much as some may argue, people are not immune to these effects.

There are studies that show how a depressive is less likely to maintain a course of medicine, more prone to drinking, smoking and poor sleep patterns. Never-mind invoking restless sleep as a source of aches and chronic pains.

Yes, the psychological pays a massive part in rectifying this, but the mental issue is not a -direct- cause of a poorer immuno-response.

and lastly...



It certainly gives credence to one's opinions in the field of study encompassed by the masters or doctorate. I'll listen to an entomologist tell me all about hoverflies - though it's a subject on which I know so little that for me to attempt informed counter-comment would be nigh laughable. Relevance is key here.

Thanks for reading -

So your now saying that if only I had a personal experience where I had my health at odds with a companies bottom line I might understand . . . well duh. The question is, have you? What happened? Did you sue? If not, why?

Homeopathy, Overdosing on nothing . . .
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527455.800-homeopathy-overdosing-on-nothing.html?full=true

All the credentials in the world will not lend credit to an opinion, I am sorry I do not accept fallacy in place of a large RCT.

So many times homeopathy is confused with holistic medicine. This is to be avoided.

Science based medicine is the best thing we have, if a manifestation of healing can be achieved with statistical significance beyond placebo it can be measured and seen in well developed randomized blinded trials.

Homeopathy:


Its ridiculous.

If you take a substance and dilute it until statistically you can say with confidence that not a single molecule still exists in solution, heck its more potent when at greater dilution, max at none, and then somehow pretend that does stuff, and feel no need to explain how . . . then I am unsure how to respond.



Acupuncture is an even bigger joke. Sham acupuncture both placing at random sites vs "meridians" and with fake needles is equally effective as placebo.

Yet big money is spent on these so called natural healing centers, its political will pushed by the ignorance of mass culture meets the desire to heal + confirmation bias and poor blinding of many new studies you get this . . . the best intentions.

All of the practices I have heard reference that actually have some real tangible effect are already being used in science based medicine, that is not to say that patient care is done right, or that its holistic in nature. This discussion is like the chiropractor vs the physical therapist argument. The word chiropractic has started to loose meaning becuase its classical meaning is so ridiculous. The theory of subluxation is a hoot.

But this rebellion against science is just obscene in our society today, many call it pseudo science, but I think that taints the word science it doesn't deserve to share so many letters and so little meaning. If an effect manifests itself it can be studied. If a consistent cause is at work, its repeatable. You cannot claim that metaphysical therapy is worth tax payer dollars and say science cannot weigh in, that it cannot be known and yet claim it has efficacy.

Mutually exclusive claims.

Power of suggestion and belief are critical for the body to heal.
Power of suggestion and belief can also kill you.

Of all the things that effect your health, your thoughts, beliefs and attitudes will effect it the most.

You can literally think and worry yourself into an early grave. A more positive attitude will extend your life.

If you believe in medicine, then it will probably help you. If you believe in the witch doctor, then it is very likely that could help you too.

Drugs don't cure anything really. They postpone the symptoms and maybe postpone death.

"Alternative medicine" is natural medicine.

Garlic thins the blood and kills parasites. Do doctors tell you to take garlic? Of course not, they are trained to prescribe drugs.

Use the best of both worlds, don't take sides. Beware too many drugs, they can have side effects.

No? Not a single thing is cured by drugs? TB? Meningitis? Nearly all bacterial infections?



Lets all take garlic instead of Asprin! Because a more effective, cheaper and generally more pleasant medicine can't be good if it's prescribed by a doctor.


Sorry, I think I might've been shouting at the screen a bit there...