The Intelligence Squared Debate - Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry vs. The Catholics (Part 1/5)

Aired November 7, 2009 on BBC World -

The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world?
A new debate, presented from London by Zeinab Badawi

It stands up for the oppressed and offers spiritual succour to billions say the Church's supporters. But what about the Church's teachings on condoms, gay sex and women priests, ask the detractors.

Speaking for the motion, Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Anne Widdecombe MP. Speaking against the motion, Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNODiU_-CNo&feature=PlayList&p=9BFA69DDD94AAA93&index=10

I think anything that organized based in human decency is a good 'force', however, like with any example of absoulute power, there is certain to be some abuses which happen within.

In modern times the Catholic Church could be considered a force for good in the world, but prior to the last 150 years it has a very bloody history of persecution dating back to when it was known as the Holy Roman Empire.

I agree. However, I still don't agree with their insistence on no birth control and no condoms to prevent the spread of disease. Especially in impoverished countries where AIDS is killing many. I believe that is a form of persecution as well.

I might consider them a force for good if they opened up secret vaults and let mankind in on a bit of inconvient knowledge.

How much advancement has the church stopped?

How far would mankind be now if they did not exist?

That's true about the information they have witheld from the world. I guess we don't really know how much damage they have done until we know what that infomation is.

the supporters will say yes

the detractors will say no

and it'll go round and round and round with no end

What is it when you are halfway in between? I still practice Catholic spirituality and read all the saints and mystics like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. I find much spiritual wisdom in the Catholic Church. I just don't believe in their dogma.

I just hate anyone who, seeing truth that could be useful to all of humanity in the Bible, removes it, placing it in their Vatican vaults for all time. Just because it is counter to organized religion's purposes, or a bit frightening, doesn't mean that the information so hidden is any less needed or valuable.

d'accord

individuals get a lot of personal comfort from the Church

the Catholic Charities in most cities provide a LOT of help for the poor and misfortunate


but among other things I don't buy the idea of confession. If you do something wrong, just telling the priest will make it okay? hhhhmmmmmmm

They are a religion they have a right to teach what they want if you don't like move on find your own way.

Freedom is what inspired this great country keep it that way.

that kinda comes back to that argument about the Church refusing communion to congressmen who don't oppose abortion

it's not a matter of whether you support or oppose abortion, its a matter of whether a pesron supports his/her church's teachings. You don't change the church to suit your lifestyle. you change your lifestyle to suit your church. or leave it

Exactly. I don't get mad at what the Church teaches. I just don't follow it.

HOWEVER, I worry about people who truly believe they will go to hell if they don't follow it. Not everyone is as smart as me.

or purgatory

what's a purgatory?

there's no pugatory in the bible (is there?)


but on the other hand you have people like Desmond Tutu who fought Apartheid on behalf of the Church and helped to bring it down

I know a handfull of catholics, typically they preech this goodness and the church sets these standards to live by, but it seems that catholics only meet these standards in church itself. For all the catholic priests that molested the little boys, for the holy roman empire, for no use of birth controll or condoms, id have to say the catholic religion is a pretty good source of evil, wrong doing, and a sign of how times used to be, and how they've changed.

I believe whole heartedly in the Emma Goldman version of Anarchy. Freedom from the dominion of gov't and religion, Means while you can believe, religion (or gov't) should not controll how you live or the choices you make so long as those choices don't infringe on the life and style of life of others.

Priests are people. There are good ones and there are bad ones and I know one priest in particular who is the holiest man I have ever met. So, no generalizations, please.

The biggest problem with the molestations was the handling of it by the Church authorities. They are the ones who swept it under the rug and allowed it to continue. Which is as bad as actually doing it themselves. Maybe even worse.

yes and it follows that had the organization never existed, the abuses never would have happened. human decency exists without such organizations so religions add not one iota of good within humanity.