problem is

you got your Christians

and you got your radical Christians

and you got your non-Christians

and you got your anti-Christians

the anti-Christians will go wayyyy out of their way to put down or restrict the Christians every chance they get

this law can be used for any group that wants to pay extra. So what if they want to spend extra money for it. No one is saying others can't have their own thing and no one is forcing others to use it

Yes there is freedom of hatred in all the world.......enjoy...

I certainly enjoy hating double posts and I still get them all the time..... .

well stop that

well stop that

You know why anti Christian groups never win lawsuits(such as removing "in God we trust"on the coins and the removal of "One nation under God"?It is because they fail to understand what separation of church and state really means.The separation of church and state was never meant to BAN religion from entering the Government or prohibiting the Government to get involved with Christian associations.It was written because if for some reason the Government wanted the official religion of the country to be(insert religion here)the people would not have to follow it or listen to it.It also allowed the people to choose what religion they wanted without the Government getting involved.It was never written to prevent Christians from mingling with the Government or for the Government to mingle with Christians.I believe that our founding fathers wrote the separation of church and state for protecting Christianity in this nation.They probably knew that one day Americans in their haste would elect some Liberal dictator who would not be Christian and pass laws banning it.If the separation of church and state was not written it would be a reality.

As far as those who claim this is not a Christian country.I say despite what you believe or not believe concerning our founding fathers it does little to change the fact that a at least 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians.It has always been at least 80% and much higher in years past.So this is,was,and will always be a Christian nation.

'thomas3474', while it is true that the Federal Court has upheld the 'In god we trust' on american coins and paper money, you'll be very disappointed to hear that the official Federal Court verdict itself contradicts everything you state in your post above.

In his June 12, 2006 verdict, U.S. District Judge Frank C. Damrell Jr. rejected a lawsuit brought by California atheist Michael Newdow.

Damrell said use of the phrase has "nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion."

Damrell, citing previous cases that have upheld use of the motto, observed in his opinion in Newdow v. Congress of the United States
, "The national motto is excluded from First Amendment significance because the motto 'has NO THEOLOGICAL or RITUALISTIC impact' and is of a PURELY SECULAR, 'PATRIOTIC' and 'CEREMONIAL CHARACTER.'"

In other words, and contrary to everything you state in your post, it is precisely because the motto is considered NON RELIGIOUS, NON-CHRISTIAN, NON-DOGMATIC, and PURELY SECULAR that it is being upheld in this particular case, AS NOT INFRINGING THE ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE.

If you keep insisting on your personal notion that the US is a christian nation and not a secualr one, and that 'in god we trust' were clearly, as you personally believe, a religious and christian exclusive motto, you will force the very judge who upheld the motto as a strictly SECULAR and CEREMONIAL MOTTO, to strike it down as a religious and christian motto, and thus ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL.





Please read the 'establishment clause of the 1st amendment of your Constitution.
Contrary to what you state: '... religion entering State affairs', or the 'State 'involving' itself with 'christians',
... IS EXACTLY WHAT THE CONSTITUTION, AND ITS FIRST AMENDMENT PROHIBITS!!!



Again 'thomas3474', you've got it all wrong.

The Founding Fathers were not afraid of a liberal dictator.
YOU ARE!!!
On the contrary, the Founding Fathers WERE AFRAID OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND.
... afraid that the christian Church of England would 'dictate' as you put it, and preside over the affairs of the SECULAR and FREE emerging USA.



On this one, you should present your personal opinions, beliefs and convictions to the people quoted below, and see if you have any success in changing the course of the US Constitution.

Here are your opponents:



"WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME THAT WE ARE, OR HAVE BEEN A CHRISTIAN NATION, I WANT TO ASK, ‘WHEN?’. "

Brian McLaren, MA, leader of the 'Emergent Church' movement, wrote the following statements in his Apr. 16, 2009 article "A Christian Nation Wouldn't Act This Way," published on Washington Post's 'On Faith' blog:

"... Was it in the colonial era or during westward expansion, when we began stealing the lands of the Native Americans, making and breaking treaties, killing wantonly, and justifying our actions by the Bible? Was it in the era of slavery or segregation, when again, we used the Bible to justify the unjustifiable? Was it in more recent history, when we dropped the first nuclear bomb and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, when we overthrew democratically elected governments in the Cold War era, when we plundered the environment without concern for the birds of the air or flowers of the field, or when we sanctioned or turned a blind eye to torture earlier this decade? Was it earlier this week, when I turned on the TV or radio and heard people scapegoating immigrants and gay people and Muslims?...

I would say that the more we claim America is a Christian nation, the less we uphold the highest ideals of both authentic Christian faith and authentic American democracy."




"THE USA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION"

Steve Benen, former spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, wrote the following comments in his Apr. 7, 2009 article , published by TheWashingtonMonthly.com:

"The US Constitution is, of course, an entirely secular document, but for years, the religious right movement and its allies have been anxious to declare the US a 'Christian Nation...'

We have a secular constitution that established a secular government. Our laws separate church from state. No religious tradition enjoys official sanction over any other. Of course we're not a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation...

The usual argument is that most of the US population is Christian. That's true, but irrelevant. Most of the US population is white - does that make the United States a 'white nation'? We also hear arguments that most of the Founding Fathers were Christians. That's also true, but also irrelevant. Most of the framers were also men - does that make our country a 'man's nation'?

It's time to retire this old conservative canard."




"WE ARE A NOT CHRISTIAN NATION, AND OUR GOVERNMENT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. "

Susan Jacoby, best-selling author, wrote the following statements in her Apr. 13, 2009 article published on Washington Post's 'On Faith' blog:

"US citizens understood the distinction between a Christian nation, or government, and a majority Christian population in the 18th century, and the fact that many do not understand this today - in a multiethnic and multireligious society that the revolutionary generation could not possibly have imagined - attests to the poor teaching of American history in schools throughout the nation...

The majority of Americans are still Christians, but our government is secular and our nation is now composed of nonbelievers and believers of numerous religious denominations - some of which did not even exist at the time of the nation's founding... We are not a Christian nation, and our government is not a Christian government. That's a simple fact, and one of the glories of our history - as the founders understood."



"IN FACT, THE GOVERNEMENT, AS A LEGAL ORGANIZATION, IS SECULAR, AND INDEPENDENT OF ALL RELIGIONS. "

David J. Brewer, JD, former US Supreme Court Justice, in his 1905 lecture series "The United States, A Christian Nation," stated:

"This Republic is classified among the Christian nations of the world...

Nevertheless, in what sense can the United States be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion, or that the people are in any manner compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'

Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is public serve, or essential to recognition either politically of socially.

In fact, the Government as a legal organization is independent of all religions."



As long as it is strictly a SECULAR AND CEREMONIAL motto, as stated by the courts, I say to you 'thomas3474', 'IN GOD WE TRUST', and long live to a SECULAR nation, where all citizens are FREE to practice any or no religion.

Well that certainly was a interesting little tidbit you offered straight out of some anti Christian website.As usual it is full of opnions from your usual anti Christian atheist who of course will say anything and pass it off as fact because he said so.I can tell you have not debated politics except in a amature fashion because you fail to post facts and instead post opinions of people who were inteviewed concerning this subject.Opinions are worthless while debating politics because you are always going to find people who will agree and say it is fact no matter what subject you are debating.Giving me quotes from some atheist holds no meaning to me because who gives a crap what he believes?We are trying to find FACTS no opionions that our founding fathers were largely Christian,that when our founding fathers were including God in documents it was the Christian God,and finally that this is a Christian nation.

I am now going to give you actual quotes by our founding fathers and more important quotes including refering to Jesus Christ so there is no question who they were refering to.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.


John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.


"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace.


--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.


John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.


Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.
Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.


Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126


Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.


Ben Franklin wrote: I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person . . . . If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? I intend this letter itself as proof of my friendship

John Adams wrote: The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will.


From a debate concerning this issue-The founding fathers were definitely Christian. 24 of the 54 who signed the Declaration of Independence were the head of seminaries. The first meeting of the Congress, on Sept. 6, 1774, started with a THREE HOUR prayer session before moving on to study four books of the Bible. Saying that they're deists totally goes against that. Why would they pray for THREE hours, which is amazing for any Christian, if they didn't believe that God had a direct connection with them? In July, 1775, when Washington became commander-in-chief, he separated the troops into regiments. Then, he said there had to be a chaplain in each one! He even said that if God doesn't help them, they won't win. He said that he hopes that all of the soldiers "endeavor as a Christian soldier." Benjamin Rush started Sunday schools and founded the first Bible study. Francis Hopkins was a choir leader and he set all of the Psalms to music. John Adams wrote his wife a letter telling her to read the 34th Psalm to her friends and parents because it had changed him and the other men as they studied it. Oh, and on that day (Sept. 6, 1774) Congress appointed a continental FAST. George Washington was even quoted, saying, "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian." They don't sound like deists to me.

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

As a pagan I take great offense at Christians, I find them to be among the biggest blowhards around. I went to my sisters church to hear some jackass named Joel Olsteen or something like that and I wanted to pull his lungs out through his ribs after 10 minutes of his nonsense.

Thanks for that useful information regarding this debate.Anything else you can enlighten us on?

You don't like it feel free not to read it.

LOL at America being a christian nation...that would mean Christianity would be the official religion of america..and last time i checked it wasn't. It never was a christian nation and it never will be sorry to burst your bubble sarah palin. If in fact this was a christian nation, why is alcohol legal, strip establishments legal, pornography legal, NAMBLA legal, Casinos legal (in most states) ???

not stupid in the least. the first amendment clearly states that "congress shall make no law recognizing the establishment of religion". court precident refers to this concept as "separation of church and state". in otherwords, it is illegal for a government body to recognize a religion by printing and issuing material such as a lisence plate. simple really.

doesn't matter who pays for it. the government cannot print the plates. that would be recognizing the establishment of a religion. a no no according to the first amendment.

hmmmmm. here's the preamble in it's entirety. where does it even begin to refer to any religious concept?


We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The No Establishment of Religion was more to protect religion from government, as well as to protect Government from religion.
European history is riddled with State/Church conflicts-as often the King/Ruler of a country became the head of the Church. Sometimes the Ruler was in direct opposition to the Official Church.
Some times the Church held more power than the State.
Entire classes of people were abused by the State because they did not follow the State approved religion.
It is to protect the people from being forced to participate in a specific religion and to have its laws based on a specific religion's/specific sect's interpretation of God's laws.
That was the background from which the Founding Fathers came.



T. Jefferson wanted a Bible printed that had statements ONLY that are attributed to Jesus.

B. Franklin is considered a womanizer, and believed in reincarnation and being a vegetarian.

Very diverse group of "Christians" back then, just as there are now.

I despise all religions so to me do it in your home (private thing) and leave it there when you go out.