Oh, what a neat thread ... and too much to read all at once ... and lots of tangents

But may I suggest there is no truth here in this world of perception ... only concepts not in conflict with truth

If something had truth inherent ... it couldn't change ... and we would all see it the same

But there is nothing that fits that criteria

So everything ... like beauty ... is in the eye of the beholder

And as far as perceiving ... I took Sally D once ... a legal ethnobotanical ... and it was like in Matrix when that silver liquid slips over neo ...

One 'universe' was totally replaced with an equally real other 'universe' ... a delightful one

Did the universe change? What was I 'seeing'? Was it all a projection of my mind with nothing out there at all?

Eventually I came to understand I can't know anything ... can't explain it ... don't need to ... all explanation is theory or what I call theology

Sorta what skyhook said ... so you believe there is one reality ... that is OK cause it can't be proven ... or dis-proven ... and consensus doesn't make something more true

So I just enjoy the ride ... if I want to 'hallucinate' ... which I haven't for a while ... I just ask for it for old times sake ... and get a wee ride ... or not

I do know my experience is one of I get what I ask for ... and spend most of my time being grateful

Zed

When I was a police officer I'd sit in patrol car all night and the MDT would make a low, long beep whenever you had a call to respond to. Shifts were long, physically, mentally draining. I'd hear that beep all night. When I'd get into my personal car to go home at night sometimes (particularly after a very exhausting day) I would hear that beep and reach down to where the MDT would be in the patrol car to acknowledge the call. It was a very clear, "outside my head" beep.

So, I agree with Massage's statement above.

I'm not sure we disagree. I absolutely agree that visual hallucinations can be seemlessly interwoven with a persons reality-influenced visual experience - that was my point in mentioning visual imagination exercises.

To explain further: Suppose you are looking exactly at something - say you see a wall with an opaque picture on it. Lets assume the wall is real. Either the picture is real, or its not. If its not, then you don't know what, if anything, is on the wall at that place. The hallucination obscures it. (Unless the hallucination is translucent.)

With sound, we more naturally blend sounds together. For the most part, sounds are 'translucent' to other sounds. I have no point here, except to say that it seems like it would be 'easier' for repeated sounds experiences to become hallucinations that repeated visuals.

Its true, auditory hallucinations are far more common then visual.




Ahh, I see I misunderstood. Yes we agree, that is a common facet of visual hallucinations.

Many times also a visual hallucination will be brought about by a lack of information. In fact there is a nerve that runs into the eye from the back which obscures a portion of every human beings peripheral vision, however we do not see this spot unless we really look for it, our minds are always using a variety of visual magic tricks to fill in the gaps so it looks right. Using your wall example if it was a brick wall the mind will allow the pattern to repeat over the spot in question making a seamless image.

So in a way we all hallucinate a portion of our vision 24/7.

I think its important to remember that light hits light sensitive cells in the eye and is converted into an electrical signal which runs up the optic nerve and is decoded by the brain, made sensible, then and only then is it apart of our awareness.

Perhaps for another conversation is how our brains can erase data that makes no sense, fill in gaps, and represent the data to awareness as if its brand new.

Its strange how when you come from different experience and backgrounds how terms pop up that you've never heard before. In the first thread post in above link the poster spoke of hypnogogic or hypnopompic hallucinations and went on to describe what I call consciousness level 10 according to the Robert Monroe Institute.

These are stages of consciousness. The stage he talks about is the one that some call "sleep paralysis."

Sleep paralysis is a level of consciousness that is necessary if you are going to create a reality in a dream and you want to participate in that reality without walking around in this one.

If you have some sort of sleep disorder and can not get into this state for dreaming, your physical body would be walking around while you were dreaming. Sleep disorders and sleep walkers are experiencing the lack of 'sleep paralysis' when their body responds to their dream world.

In the case where you have discovered 'sleep paralysis' but you are not yet dreaming or asleep you will feel as if you are paralyzed, and this is what Robert Monroe identifies as Consciousness level 10.

This level of consciousness is the first goal to be reached in what his institution teaches. It is the level where you become conscious of the astral plane and where you can float up out of your body.

If you feel yourself "raising up" that is what is called your astral body. It holds a shape similar to your own body and may look like your physical body... for a while, but it has no permanent shape. It can take any shape. It is closely attached to your physical body and cannot go far or travel very fast as in out of body movement. It is very cumbersome.

It is when you are in this state of consciousness that you can "see" your so called "hallucinations" (real or imagined creatures) other beings, ghosts, aliens or another dimension, etc.

I have seen something that can only be described as a knome while in this state. This creature also became aware of me and approached me.
It was a very strange experience and I got rid of him via a chant which sort of "popped or exploded" a kind of bubble reality that we were in.

These states of consciousness can be "induced" or "reached" with meditation etc. Once you are there you must be able to overcome a feeling of fear in order to operate and take control of the situation.

You will feel as if you are leaving your body and a lot of people think they are dieing. Others feel the presence of other beings or creatures surrounding them. You may feel a positive presence too, of someone who is there to help and guide you, or you could be surrounded by ugly demon-like creatures or alien looking beings. This could be what is known as an "astral" type abduction... not to be confused with actual physical abductions.

To respond to the above I would like to say that first, I'm sorry that you think it is "sadly true" that the paranormal is "far easier to consider and accept then the mundane etc....."

Really?

I think it is the other way around. The Mundane is far easier to consider and accept.

Why do you suppose your mind would have transitory moments where it does not lead you to "proper perception?" And why do you think that certain perception is "proper" and other is "hallucination?"

Here is what I find sad.

There are those who study human consciousness and its many different levels and they learn a lot of things about the reasons for "the paranormal" experiences that are common among humans, and there are those who just label everything "an hallucination" and that's the end of that.

They are unaware or simply uninterested in venturing further into human consciousness than that. To them, its just a malfunction of the brain. That is what I find sad and YES, MUNDANE.

This is what I was talking about here http://mingle2.com/topic/show/252376 when I said that I would get to a certain stage of this and then panic. I haven't been able to go very far because I am afraid.

You couldn't be more wrong. Reverse your statements, and it would be true.

Anything, and everything "paranormal" has been studied, and we have found over and over again explanations that fit the data that are anything but paranormal, research continues unabated, never to stop as long as human curiosity and the need to understand our minds exist.

JB, if you think you have any control over any kind of paranormal ability, please submit yourself for research, there is no manifestation of paranormal abilities that cannot be falsified.

I do have some control over what happens to me while in consciousness level 10 but I would not be the least bit interested in submitting myself to anyone for "research" to be "falsified."

By "we" (in your statement above "we have found over and over again.) who exactly are you talking about?

Secondly, I am not the one who is labeling these things "paranormal" you are.

Nothing is "paranormal."

It is all "normal."

Just because you (whoever your "we" represents) feel they have "explanations" to satisfy them that the "paranormal" does not exist all I can say is well good for them.

Also, there have been studies at the Monroe institute conducted by C.I.A. types that you are probably not aware of in regards to alien beings seen in certain states of consciousness by a large variety of people.

http://www.randi.org/site/

http://www.randi.org/site/


But that just scratches the surface, all of cognitive science would have to be wrong for you to be right, its sad place to be in my opinion.

Its not that these phenomena which are labeled paranormal cannot exist, its just a series of cognitive machinery overlaps that has been studied rigorously that illuminate the pathology of hallucination far too well to be shrugged off with mysticism.

James Randi, may be an authority in your world but he is a joke as far as I am concerned.

Just another nail in the coffin that shows how little you really know.

Whatever you want to believe. I have watched his videos and read his website very well. He's a joke and an arrogant ego maniac who really thinks he is someone special.

He isn't.

If this is an example of your hero's I'm disappointed in you.

I do get a kick out of him (James Randi) though. I agree with him on Sylvia Brown. I think she sucks.

I beg to differ. The PEAR and ICRL research have both demonstrated paranormal abilities that have not been falsified. (Of course, that depends on what constitutes "paranormal" and "falsification" in your book.)

She really does. I can't stand her.

Me either. She makes me want to puke. Her attitude sucks. Of course mine would too if I had all those stupid people asking me the most stupid questions imaginable, thinking that I would have the answer. The things she must hear. She never verifies or tries to be accountable for anything she says.

At least John Edwards was cute.

Hallucination makes me think of Voodoo for some reason. I have heard many stories about that from Haitians down here in Miami and the powers they possess in getting people to hallucinate and sleep walk somewhere.

Scary

BE NOT AFRAID. THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF.

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