This is a long post, I admit. This is also a confusing and difficult
subject, which I also admit. This thread, if nothing else, should show
that Christians do think and do not lack for intelligence. If you can
understand this thread (many won't, due to my failure to communicate
properly), you will have a better understanding of God and hopefully God
will seem more realistic to those who currently don't believe in the God
of Abraham.

Definitions
============================================================
Omnipotent: Traditionally defined as "Having unlimited or universal
power, authority, or force; all-powerful". A more accurate definition
for God would be "Having power that is only limited by character and
paradox".

omniscient: Traditionally defined as "Having total knowledge; knowing
everything", but a more accurate definition for God is "Knowing all
things that have, do or will exist or happen."

Paradox: a self-contradiction "`I always lie' is a paradox because if it
is true it must be false"
============================================================

Why God isn't Omnipotent / Omniscient in the traditional sense
============================================================
Because traditional definitions create paradox. God cannot be fully
omnipotent, because he can't create a circular square. It's paradox, a
square cannot be a circle, therefore it's not possible, even to an
omnipotent being. God cannot be fully omniscient, because he can't know
something that won't happen. Does God know that you ate lava for
breakfast? No, because it didn't happen. Does God know that your great
grandmother is a astronaut zombie? No, becuase she's not. God can
logically, only know things which are true, to know things which are not
possible or will never happen makes so sense. Therefore, I have
included the modified defintions above, which accurately describe God.
============================================================

Freewill
============================================================
Free-will is our ability to make decisions for ourselves. Our will may
or may not allign with God's will. Our will is often to do evil to
ourselves and others, which God allows out of love for us. God allows
us to make our own decisions and our own mistakes. The only right
decision we can make is to serve the will of God, all other decisions
are intentionally or accidentally evil.

God's love for us is evident in this way: The wages of sin is death.
If you break a single one of God's laws, you are subject to the penalty
of death. But because God loves us so much, he is patient and waits for
us to come to repentance and accept Jesus as our savior. If God were
not patient, you would die the first time you told someone that her
"butt doesn't look fat in those jeans", which seems unfair, but by
humans standards is completely fair.
============================================================

God's perspective of the Universe
============================================================
It is accepted that there are or at least were, eleven dimensions in our
universe. I won't bore you with an explaination of all the dimensions,
because that's a completely different discussion. What you need to
understand is that each dimention allows you to perceive reality from a
specific perspective. It is my belief that God can perceive the
Universe from all of the currently existing dimensions. While it's
possible that God's actions at the creation of the universe collapsed
Dimensions 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, I believe that to do so, God would have
to have been able to perceive all dimensions. If you are interested in
learning more about the dimentsions, please follow this link:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

So the important thing for you to understand is this: God's perspective
is not limited to just seeing the whole universe as a single moment in
time. God's perspective allows Him to perceive the universe in the
immediate of the fourth dimension (time) or at any / all points along
the fourth dimension. So God can exist in, perceive and act within the
present, even while he knows the future. This means that God already
knows what he will do, but for the sake of our sanity and, I believe,
out of generosity to us, he operates in the present when dealing with
mankind.
============================================================


Prophecy
============================================================
From God's infinite view (as opposed to finite view) of the universe,
God sees the fourth dimention (time) of our universe like a string of
pearls. It has two ends, a beginning and an end. Each pearl is a
single, infinitesimally short moment in time. God knows the beginning
and has already seen the end. This means that God already knows each
and every thing you will do throughout every moment of your life. When
God established Israel as a nation, he told them (I'm paraphrasing) "You
will eventually betray me and worship other gods" (Thus proving that God
knows the future) "But right now you worship and love me, so I will
bless you" (Thus proving that God can also function in the present).
The Old Testament is full of wonderful examples of God seeing the
future, but operating in the present. God even changes his mind a few
times in the Old Testament. God allows his servants to beg their
position, so as to prove their devotion and faith.
============================================================

Why are we here?
============================================================
Because of paradox. God cannot know something which isn't true. At one
point in the OT, God told Moses that he was going to destroy all of the
Israelites and allow Moses to recreate the line of Israel. Moses begged
God to allow the Israelites to live and told Him that if He did destroy
the Israelites, the world would view God as evil, rather than good.
When this sequence of events happened, God already knew the outcome.
But God operated in Moses' present out of loving concern and sheer
generosity to Moses. Because God operates in the present, he made the
decision to kill all of the Israelites in the present. In the present,
Moses begged God to let the Israelites live and then in the present, God
decided to allow the Israelites to live. If God hadn't allowed Moses a
chance to beg for the lives of the Israelites, then God wouldn't have
known that Moses would beg for the Israelites lives.
============================================================

conclusion
============================================================
We have to live our lives, so that God knows how we will live our lives.
At the beginning, God knew the end, but only because everything in the
middle was going to happen (or from God's perspective, had already
happened).
============================================================

:) Hey Spider Keep doing your thing

Thanks Bored, this is actually something I promised Red I would post for
her.

Nice post spider very well thought out.

God is Omnipotent.

The gate to heaven is a rectangle (elongated square).

You get there through a tunnel (circle) yet there is no dividing line
between the square door and the circle that transports you there. (ask
any one that has had a NDE)

God can make a square a circle.

There is only paradox in linear time (our time). If time is a tree
paradox is but a branch.

If time is a vine paradox creates a flower that blooms for a time and
the seeds creating a new vine.

You did an outstanding job of explaining Freewill. I could not have
done it.

that was a very nice read!!

thanks spidercmb !

On Higher Dimensions:

Spider wrote:
“It is accepted that there are or at least were, eleven dimensions in
our universe.”

This is not ‘accepted’ by everyone. In fact, even those who do ‘accept’
it will readily admit that there is absolutely no scientific evidence to
support it whatsoever. The idea of eleven dimensions come directly from
String Theory (M-Theory to be precise). But “String Theory” is not
supported by scientific evidence whatsoever, it’s entirely speculative
and based entirely on pure mathematics. In fact, ‘String Theory’ isn’t
even a theory at all in the normal sense of the word. There is no
formalized set of equations that define String Theory. It’s actually an
esoteric attempt to try to find a theory which very well may be totally
incorrect. I happen to be among those who believe that it is, in fact,
incorrect. To learn more about this see Lee Smolin’s book, “The
Trouble with Physics”

Moreover, no one has ever verified experimentally that any spatial
dimensions great than the three that we are aware of actually exist. All
of those ideas are based on pure mathematics and not science. In fact,
there are actually other ways of interpreting higher mathematical
dimensions other than in a spatial format. So when you say that it’s
‘accepted’ that there are eleven dimensions you really need to specify
who ‘accepts’ this and why. (i.e. String Theorists accepted it, and for
purely mathematically esthetic reasons) In short, there is absolutely
no scientific evidence to date that anything more than three spatial
dimensions exist.

On Pure Logic:

Spider wrote:
God established Israel as a nation, he told them (I'm paraphrasing) "You
will eventually betray me and worship other gods" (Thus proving that God
knows the future) "But right now you worship and love me, so I will
bless you" (Thus proving that God can also function in the present).

If this is what God is really like then isn’t God actually an
egotistical demon. It seems that all God is interested in is being
worshipped and loved. And if God finds that he isn’t being worshipped
and loved then he does indeed start throwing temper tantrums and being
mean to his human pets.

How can this be an all-loving god?

Would anyone bow down to a human dictator who behaves in this way?

If not, then why would it be anymore attractive to worship a spiritual
entity who behaves this way?

This is a picture of a God who demands love and attention from you
otherwise he’ll do really bad things to you. If any humans behaved in
this way we would view them as the most disgusting egocentric jerks
around.

It is totally illogical to say that such a egocentric deity is
‘all-loving’. Such a deity obvioulsy only loves itself and will readily
cause great harm or even death to anyone it who displeased it. A God
depicted in this light cannot logically be considered an ‘all-loving’
God. In fact, it would be hard to label it as anything other than a
demon actually.

If this is what God is really like, then I would respectfully ask that
God to allow me to perish. A threat of death would be laughable in that
situation. Because like Patrick Henry I agree with the sentiment, “Give
me liberty, or give me death”

The idea of serving a dictating demanding God for all of eternity does
not appeal to me in the least. I’ll gladly forfeit the ‘gift’ of
eternal life in that setting thank you.

Abracadabra,

1) We know four dimensions exist, without a doubt. The reason we know
four dimension exist is that we move through time. True, we can't
change direction or speed, but the movement through time is undeniable.
It's also understood that the fifth dimension exists, because the fifth
dimension is >>>choice<<<. Do you make choices Abra? If so, then you
exist in the fifth dimension. The reason I believe the fifth dimension
has collaspsed is because God knows how the earth will end, so he knows
every decision we will make. So we won't branch out through the fifth
dimension, but rather make a straight path through the fourth.

2) God blessed the Israelites for worshipping him. When they stopped
worshipping him, he stopped blessing them. You really should read the
Bible before judging God (for me, I will never judge God). And don't
get your back all up and tell me about how long you were a Christian and
all that, I've heard it before and it's not that interesting. And
regardless of how many pastor uncles you have, you still show no
understanding of this period of time in Israel.

3) God blesses all people, good and bad. When the Israelites stopped
worshipping God, the special blessings that protected them from their
neighbors / strengthened their armies to defeat their enemies, were
removed. Without those blessings, the Israelites suffered badly. This
isn't egotistical, it's fair. When the Israelites refused to serve God,
they no longer deserved the special blessings of protection that God
gave to them.

awesome read spider and so true

Spider wrote:
“True, we can't change direction or speed, but the movement through time
is undeniable. It's also understood that the fifth dimension exists,
because the fifth dimension is >>>choice<<<.”

If you believe that ‘choice’ is a spatial dimension then never mind.
You’re obviously just making up your own baloney.

Abracadabra,

The fifth dimension is choice, even if you don't believe that it is.
Follow this link and expand your knowledge on the subject a little:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

Spider wrote:
“The fifth dimension is choice, even if you don't believe that it is.
Follow this link and expand your knowledge on the subject a little:”

Oh please!

Have you read the book reviews for this book?


Wannabe Scientist's View:

”Although the book is not intended to be a description of "real
physics", as he (the author) points out in the introduction, his ideas
on ten dimensions and the alleged connection to string theory and the
many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics couldn't be stated more
explicitly and couldn't be more wrong.”

Even the author of the book (who is a music producer and not a
scientist) freely admits on his own, right in the book, that the book is
not intended to be a description of “real physics”.

That’s the author’s own confession in the book!

Don’t Be Fooled:

“This book is totally bogus pseudo-science. The author (not a scientist,
but a music producer) attempts to explain higher dimensions, as if they
were analogous to the lower ones, as "points" and "lines," which is
completely incorrect. If you have an interest in quantum mechanics and
string theory, stick with books written by physicists, such as Brian
Greene's ‘The Elegant Universe’.”


Tenth Dimension Hoax:

“This is not a serious treatment of string theory, but a fabricated
theory with little to no scientific background. The author's approach is
entertaining, but totally off-base and a dis-service to the true string
theory field of study. This book is a borderline hoax and I feel dumber
for having actually read it. This book will not be donated to the local
public library, but thrown in the trash so others won't be polluted by
it's misguided ideas.”

Do you really think I’m going to waste my time reading such garbage?

Your recommendation of this book does nothing other than clearly
demonstrate to me that you’ll grab onto any fairytale that suits you and
try to push it as the gospel truth. Of course, this doesn’t surprise me
in the least.

Abracadabra,

You found three negative reviews on Amazon.com, that's impressive. Of
course, they all disagree with his method of presenting the dimensions,
they don't deny that they exist. While he's a muscian, he's working on
his PHD in string theory, be careful, you might be accused of putting
people into boxes! Us closed minded Christians believe that eve a
janitor or ditch-digger can teach us, we aren't quite as egotistical as
open-minded pantheists such as yourself. This book was an atempt to
bring string theory down to a level that can be understood by laymen,
but judging from your response, the author didn't bring it down low
enough.

amen spider to that last coment

Abracadabra,

I'm done talking to you on this subject. What I presented was an
example of logical and well-thoughtout Christian apologetics and I think
that most people will get something out of what I have posted.

Abracadabra writes:

"If you believe that ‘choice’ is a spatial dimension then never mind.
You’re obviously just making up your own baloney."

Yes, the correct answer for "What is the fifth dimension?" is "The
Internet". And I have an AutoCAD drawing that proves it. It's a
dimension of light and sound, where things are simultaneously true *and*
false....

::::Rod Sterling steps out of the shadows:::

"Meet Spider. A man obsessed with proving non-believers don't know which
dimension is up. Little did he know that the book he's using as an
authoritative source on the nature of the fifth dimension was *not*
written by a
physicist, but a musician. There's a signpost up ahead. Your next
stop... THe Just Say Hi Zone."

-Kerry O.

A note from the author (Rob Bryanton)

"This book is called 'Imagining' the Tenth Dimension, its subtitle is 'a
new way of thinking' about time and space, and the book description
includes the phrase 'not about mainstream physics'. If anyone sees all
this and somehow concludes that this book is about an established and
proven theory of reality currently supported by mainstream physics, then
they would be mistaken."

Forget about the reviews. These are the authors OWN WORDS!

He clearly states that his ideas are not supported by physics.

It's a fiction book by the authors own decree. Pure IMAGINATION which
he, himself clearly and fully admits to.

Nothing wrong with that. As long as it's presented as such.

But don't try to pass it off as 'science' or 'fact'.

Learn to distinquish between fairytales and facts.

I know that's hard for you to do.

-Kerry O. wrote:
"There's a signpost up ahead. Your next stop... The Just Say Hi Zone."

Now that makes sense. (ha ha)

geeeeeezzeee guys...it was still amusing!!

it's just a point of view!

Abracadabra writes:

"Nothing wrong with that. As long as it's presented as such.

But don't try to pass it off as 'science' or 'fact'."

Or cover it up with semantic sleight of hand. Or outright obfuscation as
was done recently with "Of Pandas and People". Skeptics are an observant
bunch and will catch your lapses every time.

In the case of "Pandas", this, from the trial judge's ruling in the case
of Kitzmiller vs Dover Area School District:

"As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court,
Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior
to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards, which held
that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By
comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing
points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts
is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation
(creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times
were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and
(3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that
creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school
science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling,
significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected
without any corresponding change in content .... The weight of the
evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from
“creation” to “intelligent design” occurred sometime in 1987, after the
Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision."

Afternote: the publishers of the book are now changing its name to "The
Design of Life". This type of deception has no place in peer reviewed
scientific papers.


-Kerry O.

Hot Chick wrote:
"geeeeeezzeee guys...it was still amusing!!"

Who said it wasn't amusing? (ha ha)

Owl have to get some emoticons I guess. It's about time anyway.