Hi James xxxx

Hi Alex

Hi Abra

I just want to point out one thing. I breifly mentioned that there are
dimensions past the known four dimensions, but central theme of my
argument was solely based on the fouth dimension. Abra and Kerry's
arguements are without merit to my central arguement, they are
attempting to disprove the entire statement using a single, unimportant
idea that they disagree with. Nothing about my discussion of how God
knows the future without violating free-will is based on any concept of
dimensions past the fourth dimension. And while there is no proof of
dimensions beyond the fourth dimension, as I pointed out in my original
post, all dimensions past the fourth would have collapsed when God
created the universe.

Of course, the silly theory of there being or having existed eleven
dimensions is support by such people as Steven Hawking and actually
everyone who believes in String theory. String theory cannot be real
science until the existance of the hypothetical dimensions have been
proven, but as I have pointed out, for God to know the future, all
additional dimensions would have to have collapsed. And if you read the
critics that were presented by Abra, the only complaint that they have
is they don't agree with the authors teaching method.

1) Dimensions past the fourth aren't central or even tritiary to my
centeral argument.
2) Eleven dimensions are the currently accepted number in string
theory.
3) String theory is without proof (which was admitted by the author),
but it has as much proof as Evolution and currently there is little or
no data that disproves string theory...the same cannot be said of
Evolution.
4) Post Mother Theresa's diary on Amazon.com and you will have
detractors posting within minutes. Critics on Amazon.com aren't proof
that a theory or a teaching method are without merit. We know that the
author of the book is working on his PHD, what do we know about his
critics on Amazon.com?

Good evening Spider and Everyone else who ventures here.

Spider, I would like to address your post as it relates to something you
and I took issue with in a previous post.

First, however, I would like to say - YOU ALL ARE A HOOT, too much
really.

There must be something wrong with me that I revel in the honesty of
these conversations. How suprememly real I feel listening to all of
you. How utterely rejuvinated I feel when I've been here and shared in
such wonderous, outrageous, obsurd, intelligent, and thought provoking
words. I feel priveledged to be in the same box with all of you. Look
at all we've discussed and no one has started a war yet. And if we are
here long enough, no matter who you might not be talking to at this
moment, I have no doubt that each path would cross again. It is with
consistancy that I marvel and relish the wonders of our differences. I
would NOT have it any other way. How boring our lives would be, without
our differences.

Next reply pertains to the topic at hand.

" I just want to point out one thing. I breifly mentioned that there are
dimensions past the known four dimensions, but central theme of my
argument was solely based on the fouth dimension. Abra and Kerry's
arguements are without merit to my central arguement, they are
attempting to disprove the entire statement using a single, unimportant
idea that they disagree with. Nothing about my discussion of how God
knows the future without violating free-will is based on any concept of
dimensions past the fourth dimension. And while there is no proof of
dimensions beyond the fourth dimension, as I pointed out in my original
post, all dimensions past the fourth would have collapsed when God
created the universe.

Of course, the silly theory of there being or having existed eleven
dimensions is support by such people as Steven Hawking and actually
everyone who believes in String theory. String theory cannot be real
science until the existance of the hypothetical dimensions have been
proven, but as I have pointed out, for God to know the future, all
additional dimensions would have to have collapsed. And if you read the
critics that were presented by Abra, the only complaint that they have
is they don't agree with the authors teaching method."


Yeesh. Why don't we just put it up for a vote?

Studio audience? What say you? One caveat, though-- every time you vote
for Abra's or Kerry's view, God kills a kitten.

-Kerry O.

Spider wrote:
“And if you read the critics that were presented by Abra, the only
complaint that they have is they don't agree with the authors teaching
method.”

To whomever may be interested, Spider has it all wrong. It has nothing
at all to do with any ‘teaching method’. The bottom line is that the
information in Rob Bryanton’s book is totally incorrect with respect to
modern science no matter how it might be taught. And this is what Mr.
Bryanton (the author of the book) has clearly decreed himself.

So it’s not Abra who is saying this but rather THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK
HIMSELF.

Sorry for shouting, but I just wanted to make that perfectly clear. (ha
ha)

This will be long, so I will do it in many replies. All are free to
comment on any part of the following:

Spider,
Youv’e taken a lot of time and put some effort in your attempt to
respond to something from a previous post.
I would like to thank-you by showing you that I have respected that
effort and to do that I will respond to various point you have made.

============================================================

Why God isn't Omnipotent / Omniscient in the traditional sense
============================================================
””Because traditional definitions create paradox. God cannot be fully
omnipotent, because he can't create a circular square. It's paradox, a
square cannot be a circle, therefore it's not possible, even to an
omnipotent being. God cannot be fully omniscient, because he can't know
something that won't happen."""

The word definitions you give, I have no problem with. The way you
assign them in reference to God gives me pause. Omnipotent, God can’t
create a circular square. So what you are saying is that God created a
universe, complete in functionality. A universe that has the ability,
by the natural laws created for it, to continue of it’s own accord, that
even God cannot change. It can and does function without conscious,
continuous intervention by God to maintain or stabilize it. That is a
paradox, considering that people pray for God’s intervention ALL THE
TIME.

This either means that God actually is a separate entity and does not
exist as part of this universe, as in it is solely a creation and not a
habitat. Or could it be possible that God is the very nature of this
universe? A habitat whose nature, and laws of physics are the matrix
that is God?

============================================================

Freewill
============================================================
””Free-will is our ability to make decisions for ourselves. Our will may
or may not allign with God's will. Our will is often to do evil to
ourselves and others, which God allows out of love for us. God allows us
to make our own decisions and our own mistakes. The only right decision
we can make is to serve the will of God, all other decisions are
intentionally or accidentally evil.””

Perhaps you should have defined ‘evil’ in your list. For used in this
manner seems, to me, to be a mechanism of psychological browbeating.
The word evil, in our society, is given to those without conscience, or
to those who would cause harm for the purpose of their own enjoyment.
However, if the word evil is replaced by ‘wrong’, then your intent shows
that your religion is purely a black and white, right or wrong concept
with no room for error. So at this point in this conversation there is
the paradoxes you speak of are increasing, for your statement itself is
a paradox. Our will is our own, which God allowed us to have out of
love for us. No parent of sound mind with parental love allows their
children to make hurtful mistakes for the sake of learning, and then
condemns them forever for having made the mistake. Further it may have
been wrong, but lack of knowledge and lack of understanding is taken
into consideration and we create a gray area, called mistake. Not
wrong, not evil, but a learning process.



””God's love for us is evident in this way: The wages of sin is death.
If you break a single one of God's laws, you are subject to the penalty
of death. But because God loves us so much, he is patient and waits for
us to come to repentance and accept Jesus as our savior. If God were
not patient, you would die the first time you told someone that her
"butt doesn't look fat in those jeans", which seems unfair, but by
humans standards is completely fair.””

The wage of sin is death. While you have said this many times, I
take it to have a more traditional Christian meaning. The wage of sin
is not defined as death, it is defined as life away from the sight of
God. My questioning of this idea gets me the following answer, that one
strives to be worthy of everlasting life ‘in the sight of God’. I
understand that to means heaven, while others continue on with
everlasting life, but not in heavenly bliss. Here once again is the idea
that God is a force outside us. And according to your first previous
paradox, God does not even assume a daily role in the operations of this
universe.

This can be turned around into a whole new religious concept. Put
it together with one made previously and you have : A universe which
was created and subsists as a direct result of a matrix ‘created’ for
the habitation of God. Through this mesh of matrix humans send stimuli
of every sensory perception, would this not be sufficient pleasure for a
God to create beings in this universe through which it could enjoy the
fruits of it’s own making, its own creation? So if the penalty for sin
is death, than perhaps the love this God would offer, would be to allow
reincarnation in some fashion. Maybe we are not so far off from some
other beliefs held here after all. (hey, I’ve often thought I could
start a new religion, but people like Abra would out do me anyway.
Smile)
============================================================

God's perspective of the Universe
============================================================
”” It is my belief that God can perceive the Universe from all of the
currently existing dimensions.
So the important thing for you to understand is this: God's perspective
is not limited to just seeing the whole universe as a single moment in
time. God's perspective allows Him to perceive the universe in the
immediate of the fourth dimension (time) or at any / all points along
the fourth dimension. So God can exist in, perceive and act within the
present, even while he knows the future. This means that God already
knows what he will do, but for the sake of our sanity and, I believe,
out of generosity to us, he operates in the present when dealing with
mankind.”””

This response you make to me, was inclusive of one request, that you
do not quote scripture to support what you say. So I appreciate that
you have gone to the lengths of providing other sources, such at the
link discussing possible other dimensions. I think, however, there is
not enough to substantiate the use of that information. So I have taken
the only substantial part of this particular paragraph to apply my next
thought to.

The above quote is a flight doomed to crash. Here is my thought on
why. All time and space to God is known. However, I have concluded by
your previous statements that if God exists ‘outside’ of this universe,
a universe that was created with natural laws to control and maintain
it’s own existence, without God, BIG PARADOX, READY? Then, God
cannot overstep or break these laws without causing other side affects.
Therefore, the control over individual humans, who have a predetermined
fate, which affects ALL of time and history, cannot be inserted without
changing ‘something’ substantial.

Once again, however, if God is viewed as a creator who exists within the
matrix of it’s own creation, then it IS nature, it is “the law” of the
universe. Perhaps it’s comfort lies by creating a home that will run
all of it’s own accord, while It (God) is free to experience from all
the senses of every living thing within the matrix.
(wow, I’m learning a lot here, or least feel like there is some
understanding of many Other’s views.)









============================================================

Prophecy
============================================================
”””From God's infinite view (as opposed to finite view) of the universe,
God sees the fourth dimention (time) of our universe like a string of
pearls. It has two ends, a beginning and an end. Each pearl is a
single, infinitesimally short moment in time. God knows the beginning
and has already seen the end. This means that God already knows each
and every thing you will do throughout every moment of your life. When
God established Israel as a nation, he told them (I'm paraphrasing) "You
will eventually betray me and worship other gods" (Thus proving that God
knows the future) "But right now you worship and love me, so I will
bless you" (Thus proving that God can also function in the present).
The Old Testament is full of wonderful examples of God seeing the
future, but operating in the present. God even changes his mind a few
times in the Old Testament. God allows his servants to beg their
position, so as to prove their devotion and faith.”””

This entire paragraph proves one thing, if you believe this there is
absolutely no reason to try so hard to please this entity. For your
fate is predetermined and no matter how you try, no matter what you
believe, your destiny is set, your disposition upon your physical death
is actually of little consequence, for you have no control in it’s
outcome. Many Christians believe that there is little or no reason
for the atheist to have high standards or virtuous morals, but I can
tell you , from this, that it is the Christian who has the freest reign
of all. For their fate cannot be changed, so any learning from what you
have said, may as well go home, have a drink, sit back and enjoy their
life, without being encumbered by the rituals of religion or the morals
they thought they would have to uphold in an effort to please a God who
cannot be swayed. Obviously there can be no change to that which exists
in past, present and future. It is a story told and prophecy cannot be
changed and if God’s will is pre-existant based of knowledge of what
WILL be, then there is nothing that can change it.

============================================================

Why are we here?
============================================================
”””Because of paradox. God cannot know something which isn't true. At
one point in the OT, God told Moses that he was going to destroy all of
the Israelites and allow Moses to recreate the line of Israel. Moses
begged God to allow the Israelites to live and told Him that if He did
destroy the Israelites, the world would view God as evil, rather than
good.
When this sequence of events happened, God already knew the outcome. But
God operated in Moses' present out of loving concern and sheer
generosity to Moses.”””

Here you speak as if any of this made a difference. Are you saying
that God just wanted to see if the free will of Moses would concur what
God ‘knew’ was already bound to be??? Psychologically speaking, this
sounds more like God, who knew everything that was going to happen, was
just caught up in an egotistical moment. Let Moses think he’s had his
way, and he will love me all the more and what’s more, he will tell
others of my great love and generosity and there will be more to praise
me. (sorry, Spider, but this is what I get from your explanation)

If the story of Noah and the flood did not make people already think God
was evil, who would care if a few Isrealites were destroyed? At least
it wasn’t the whole of the human race again…


“””Because God operates in the present, he made the
decision to kill all of the Israelites in the present. In the present,
Moses begged God to let the Israelites live and then in the present, God
decided to allow the Israelites to live. If God hadn't allowed Moses a
chance to beg for the lives of the Israelites, then God wouldn't have
known that Moses would beg for the Israelites lives.”””

I cannot give this section any credence, as you have already stated many
times in your argument that God KNOWS the progression of events. It
only takes a human to put together, how that outcome came about. The
paradox is that you see it in any other way.


============================================================

conclusion
============================================================
”””We have to live our lives, so that God knows how we will live our
lives. At the beginning, God knew the end, but only because everything
in the middle was going to happen (or from God's perspective, had
already happened).”””

Spider, from all the logic I can muster, from all the arguments you
give, I can only conclude this: The if I know the beginning, if I
know the end, if in the end I know who will be saved and who will not,
IT DOES NOT MATTER how we get there. No doctrine, no scripture is
necessary, if this is indeed what you believe. For not even logic can
prevail in these arguments.

I don’t know if you’ll make it to this point. There has been much that
we disagree on, and the way our individual thought processes function
and the conclusions we make as individuals, in these matters, has only
two major concerns for me.

The first is that we treat each other with respect and that includes
allowing and accepting each others path of logic. I respect you and
others who have their beliefs, and it may well be that, that part of
that respect is due to your beliefs as they make you the person you are.

The second concern, for me, is that those who hold to religious beliefs,
outside the realm of any civil code. Simply put, that their doctrine,
their beliefs do not ever call for the oppression of anyone and that
above their faith they place equality to all in any civil law.

THANK-YOU dear Spider, for this thread.
Red (di)

Redykeulous wrote:

The word definitions you give, I have no problem with. The way you
assign them in reference to God gives me pause. Omnipotent, God can’t
create a circular square. So what you are saying is that God created a
universe, complete in functionality. A universe that has the ability, by
the natural laws created for it, to continue of it’s own accord, that
even God cannot change. It can and does function without conscious,
continuous intervention by God to maintain or stabilize it. That is a
paradox, considering that people pray for God’s intervention ALL THE
TIME.

This either means that God actually is a separate entity and does not
exist as part of this universe, as in it is solely a creation and not a
habitat. Or could it be possible that God is the very nature of this
universe? A habitat whose nature, and laws of physics are the matrix
that is God?

=================================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

Not at all! A circle is a shape with 360 1 degree corners. A square is
a shape with 4 90 degree angles and equal distant sides. A circular
square cannot logically exist. Could God change the earth into a cube?
Yes. But creating a circular square is impossible, because the
definitions are incompatible.

As I say later in my post, God operates in the present. God KNOWS the
end, but he operates in the present. It's a very difficult concept to
explain. Solomon asked God for wisdom. God KNEW that Solomon would
worship other gods in the future, but at this point, Solomon was a good
and righteous man, so God granted his prayer. God's knowledge of the
future does not taint his interactions with man in the present. If I
got cancer, I would want prayer. Because while God knows the outcome,
we don't. With enough prayer, maybe God would decide to cure me of
cancer. In this example, God would know from creation, that I would get
enough prayer that he would heal me, but he wouldn't choose to heal me
until those prayers had been given. This is a limitation of Paradox.
If God healed me the moment that I got cancer, because he knew that so
many people were going to pray for me to get well in two years, then
those people would never have a chance to pray for me to get well and so
God wouldn't heal me, then I would get sick and people would pray for me
to get well...etc, etc, etc. It's a logical loop. God waits for the
prayers to do anything, otherwise the prayers will never be made. This
isn't egotistical, it's the exact opposite. If you had six billions
children and one child asked a couple times for apple juice, but the
child didn't seem to really want the apple juice, you would be justified
in never giving the child apple juice. But if the child and dozens or
hundreds of the childs brothers and sisters asked constantly for you to
give the first child apple juice, you would take notice. God wants us
to prove that we really want what we are asking, before he gives it to
us. I know, you are going to say "You can't compare cancer to apple
juice" and you are right, but God can. Jesus called death, "sleep". To
God, death is just a small event in an infinately long existance.

Now you are starting to lose me. God is a seperate entity and does
exist outside of our universe. The Bible tells us that the universe
cannot contain God.

=================================================================================
Redykeulous wrote:

Perhaps you should have defined ‘evil’ in your list. For used in this
manner seems, to me, to be a mechanism of psychological browbeating. The
word evil, in our society, is given to those without conscience, or to
those who would cause harm for the purpose of their own enjoyment.
However, if the word evil is replaced by ‘wrong’, then your intent shows
that your religion is purely a black and white, right or wrong concept
with no room for error. So at this point in this conversation there is
the paradoxes you speak of are increasing, for your statement itself is
a paradox. Our will is our own, which God allowed us to have out of love
for us. No parent of sound mind with parental love allows their children
to make hurtful mistakes for the sake of learning, and then condemns
them forever for having made the mistake. Further it may have been
wrong, but lack of knowledge and lack of understanding is taken into
consideration and we create a gray area, called mistake. Not
wrong, not evil, but a learning process.

=================================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

Evil is anything that opposes God's will.

I can't help how you view this fact, but it's not a paradox. Everything
that is not God's will is evil. It might be completely unintentional,
but it's evil. As far as this goes, God calls everyone to him. If your
choice in this life is to not serve God, he won't force you to serve him
in the next life. Once again, this is God allowing you to make the
decisions for you.

=================================================================================


I couldn't disagree more with everything from this point on. You have
run onto too many other trains of thought that leave the original. You
make assumptions that directly contradict what I posted in my original
post. These aren't easy ideas to convey and I've failed to be clear.
I gave it my best shot, so I'll just leave it here.

Red wrote:
“A universe which was created and subsists as a direct result of a
matrix ‘created’ for the habitation of God. Through this mesh of matrix
humans send stimuli of every sensory perception, would this not be
sufficient pleasure for a God to create beings in this universe through
which it could enjoy the fruits of it’s own making, its own creation?”

Of all the explanations of why god would be interested in humans, this
one makes the most sense to me.

I simply can’t understand the idea of a ruling type of godhead that
wants humans to continue to ‘serve’ him in an afterlife. Of what use
could humans possibly be to a god that could create this entire
universe?

Moreover, the whole idea of god as being an egotistical godhead with
wants, desires, and needs is far too human for me. That whole idea just
sounds like a spoiled brat human who has unlimited power. In short it
sounds like a god that humans would have made up in their own image.

A god that manifests itself into the universe and becomes the universe
has ultimately become us. There is nothing outside of god. Forget
about ‘outside of the universe’. God comes first not second. We serve
god by being god. And there is no judgments or separation. There are
no such things as ‘egos’. The ego is just an illusion. We simply
aren’t separate beings and we never were.

Abracadabra,

What father doesn't like to give his children gifts? To those children
who accept their inheritance, will be given gifts beyond our
imagination. We won't serve God, we will glorify God by doing His work
for Him. Work that is quite literally beyond our ability to understand.

'... The Bible tells us that the universe cannot contain God.'

Aye but God can contain the universe and since he does He is within that
universe.

You are not your your kidney but your kidney is within you and contains
within itself your dna. Therefor you are also within you kidney.

Spider, my intent was twofold. I knew that you would find fault with
my first comments, sorry but that is why I posted so quickly.

My first point was to show you, how interpretation through some kind of
logical order ends up delivering a completly different message. Of
course I lost you, you were not open to following along. You stumbled
thinking you failed as a teacher. You did not fail in the teaching, it
is the subject matter you teach that has fault.

There is also one other very important job of a teacher. It is to
listen. If you follow my thought process to the end, you will learn
many things. That I, that other, do not come to the same conclusions
whenever something is left to interpret. Also, it was my intention,
perhaps, to turn the tables and be the teacher. I have listened to many
here, I have found some understanding in what Abra has said, that others
concur with, but may not be as vocal in their descriptions. I was
trying to give you some insight into how different beliefs evolve. I
was not trying, literally, to be argumentative.

Abra, you do me a great service by acknowledging that I have come to
understand, at least in some small measure, what you believe.

I do not post here, to change what I believe, I post here because there
is an abundance of differing views and people who are willing to discuss
them, teach them.

The more I understand the better able I am to process the views of
others in terms of their own beliefs. Having some understanding allows
us to stand firm in our own beliefs without disrespecting others, but
more, it gives us a way to communicate about bigger issues.

Sometimes having 'understanding' of a persons religious convictions and
personal beliefs give us a more respectfull battle field when trying to
persuade one's thoughts to your own.

Redykeulous,

If you will be so kind as to look at your first response. You claim
that if God can't do something that is impossible (creating a circular
square) then he can't be in control. HELLO! A square can't be a
circle. They are two totally different things with very clear
defintions. That's why you are losing me. You are trying SO HARD to be
open minded that you have closed your mind.

You asked for a post explaining how God could know the future without
effecting free will. I gave you a post and you didn't even respect me
enough to read it on it's own merits, you had to try to turn it into a
lesson to me. Listen: I had a life before I was saved. I have seen
ideas twisted and misconstrued. That doesn't mean the person doing the
twisting is right. Why do you assume that I need this lesson? I see it
every day in this forum with AB taking scriptures with well understood
meanins and he twists them into paganism and foul lies. The point you
don't get is that there IS absolute truth and it doesn't matter at all
what yours, mine or anyone else's opinion is, the truth is the truth.
Cover your eyes and keep shouting "All beliefs are equal!", but you will
never believe it.

A circle can not be a square when you limit it to deminsional space.

If you take it outside the spaces that are finite and rotate it into
infinate reality it can be what ever shape you make it.

God is beyond our understanding for he is outside our ability to see and
know and at the same time he is within us, sustaining our spirit,
nudging our steps from time to time, yet is he also in all things.

You can not place a limit upon him for he is greater than you or I.