i think we humans are the best thing on earth we have done extreemly
well with gods purpose, purpose or will for our species.we have become
brilliant at maths the best multiplyers on the planet and watt a great
job we have done subdueing mother earth into her inevitable death unless
we all quit the bullshiitt and start doing watt god really wants.

AB, thank you for this thread, it makes a lot of sense to me.

AdventureBegins,

You are correct, it does not state that in the scriptures. Matthew,
Mark and Luke also do not mention they are written from different
perspectives.

How do you explain the plants being created twice?
How do you explain the animals being created twice?

If you don't see this, then I can't argue it with you. It's the
accepted truth by Jews and Christians, but nothing I can say will make
you see the truth in it.

Spider, you still don't make a distinction between the truth

and the truth as you want it to be. You are hellbent to be

more right than others.

Truth is a tricky thing...my truth may not be your truth...

How to discern who has the Truth?

The enigmatic question.

Some say the Bible does, some say pthhhh...

all this poring over a book, looking for what?

Looking for answers?

Or a warm fuzzy superiority?

I prefer the stark realities, that are in my face, that are right there
in front of me, tangible.

Not mis-interpretable.

Spider sir I do not need your link to the hebrew although I thank you
for it. I have a translator that places both the hebrew and the english
on the screen at the same time.

Things were not created twice upon the whole earth. God created a
garden and filled that garden and that is the second listing of him
creating plants and such.

It was to fill the garden with plenty so that Adam would have things
that were pleasent to the sight and good to eat.
At that time Adams purpose was to keep the garden. Eve was created to
assist him.

A thought occurs...

Genesis 2:1
-------------------------------------------------------------
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By
the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested
on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
-------------------------------------------------------------

If the heavens and earth and all their hosts were completed on the 6th
day, why did God continue creating on the 8th+ day?

Genesis 2:4
-------------------------------------------------------------
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Genesis 2:4 proposes to tell the account of creation, but we have
already read that haven't we?

It makes no sense until you realize that it is two seperate accounts of
the same events.

invisible,

I really don't care what you think of me or my motives. You don't have
any truth in you, where I am concerned. AdventureBegins offered his
position and I offered mine, it is your own bias that makes mine seem to
be me trying to be more right.

well guys its late here-so I'm going to bed.

I'll read the rest of this post latter.

Thankyou AB for this post.

I wash my hands of this thread. This is one of those times when the
non-Christians / non-Bible readers are 100% correct and a deceiving
Bible reading Christian like myself can't convince them otherwise. To
the Christians who disagree with what I posted, I suggest you get into
the Word, it's the only way to learn the truth.

i think god must be a bit of a dope leavin human beings in charge of a
garden we ****t in our water then dump it or pump it into the earth to
get some stinking oil out of the ground so we can have all this stuff ya
cant eat.its time someone came up with a new plan i reckon this one is
not working.

spider wrote...
AdventureBegins,

You are correct, it does not state that in the scriptures. Matthew, Mark
and Luke also do not mention they are written from different
perspectives.
---------------------------------------------------------
Aye sir they do not.

Mathew, Mark and Luke do not have to mention they are seperate. They
are. Each is its own book. Genesis is one book.

I'd sure like to know where some of you guys get your ideas from.
Entertaining, if nothing else.

The Genesis record of God's creation of the first man is found in
Genesis 1:28 and it is REITERATED in Genesis 2:7. This record, as
compiled by Moses, was part of the Pentateuch or the first five books of
the law and therefore it is the basis for all future doctrine. The fact
that Adam was the first man is not an issue of question in God's Word
and we find that holds through all of Scripture, including the New
Testament.

iv read the bible and always get stuck on genesis it never reads like
reiteration to me 2 different yarns about different critters
homosapiens. if ya need a degree in theology to be able to read and
understand watt is written in the bible i might as well use mine as
toilet paper startin to sound to me like its harder to work out than a
criptic crossword puzzle

karizman, I too find the two Genisis story portrayed in different
lights. For how the next thousands of years play out are in direct
relation to only ONE of these stories. For in one woman is subserviant,
in the other she is equal. How much different would we be know if women
had throught history been held in equal status to men?

Then AB brings to the lighted conference table another idea. That
'mankind' was created before Adam and Eve. So does this mean that God
created many men and women and that only Adam and Eve where created to
exist in the Garden of Eden.

Sounds similiar to a Star Trek episode, where some aliens collected two
of every species in the universe and put them in the lap of luxery, for
others to view.

Could God have been experimenting, and upon realizing the delicate
nature of his creation, made two 'perfect' beings for the purpose of
protecting for all eternity? Seems they fell short of the perfect mark
too, for the ability to commit sin was apparently something God forgot
to perfect out of the equation.

Claim: There were people who lived on Earth before God destroyed the
Earth and all that was on it, and then remade the Earth in Genesis
1:1-2, Jeremiah 4:22-31 is quoted as proof.
First, we must look at each set of verses in the contents where they
were placed if we are to understand:


1. Who is speaking?
2. Who is it speaking to?
3. What is it speaking about?
4. When will it happen?
5. Where will it take place?
6. Why will it happen?

It is not as easy to find the answers as you might think, however the
answers are always in the chapter and verses immediately preceding of
following the verse or verses in question. It will never be found in
another book of the Bible, or distanced from the verses in question by
two or more chapters. When you have found the meaning of a verse, then
you may also find other places in the Bible which gives the same
message, but each place must stand on it's own within it's contents.
Other places in the Bible can confirm but cannot ever explain.
Now let us see if the claim that was made is valid, that is true of
false. We cannot start out with an assumption either way, else we would
be looking to prove what we want it to say rather than looking for the
truth of what it does say. Many a cult has been started by well meaning
persons who either forgot, or did not know, this truth. I am constantly
amazed at the arguments I hear about what the Bible is saying, while
each side puts forth the exact same scripture as the proof scripture for
their side of the argument.

First let us look at the first chapter of Genesis:

In answering the questions, we see that

God speaks throughout the chapter, and is telling man that He created
everything in the past for man whom He created last and gave man
authority over all that was made on the Earth. First the Statement in
Genesis. 1:1 that He (God) created everything. And then He goes on to
tell How he created everything (Genesis. 1:2). God tells us that He
created everything in a very short time for the benefit of man.

Is there anything in this chapter which even remotely suggests that
there was an earth before the one that we are now living on? No, there
is not. So where did this idea come from? Several hundred years ago when
man started to believe in evolution instead of God's word, man tried to
fit it into the creation story. He claimed that there was a gap of
millions of years between Genesis. 1:1 and Genesis. 1:2 which then
allowed for evolution, or for the existence of a previous world which
was then destroyed by God and subsequently is remade by God. Since then
man even denies that God created anything and that if He exist, only
made something out of what was already there. They say that God used
evolution to make the earth and man. There are believers of this heresy
because they would rather believe the word of men, who claim to be
Scientist, than they would to believe the word of God. There are also
those God fearing men who have been led astray by false interpretations
of God's word. The first will be led straight into hell, the last will
not have it effect their salvation, for they do worship Jesus first.

Now lets go back to Genesis chapter 1. We start out with a writing style
that was common. We first make a statement, then for emphasis, we then
explain or expand on the statement just made. That is still used
sometimes today. The Hebrews made use of it in the writings of the Bible
as well as secular writings. We can see here that God first makes a
statement that He, and He alone, created, that is, made everything out
of nothing.

An example of writing style.

I make the statement "I made a table and chair" period. That says it
all, it tells who did what. The statement is complete in itself.

Now I can expand on that statement by telling you how I made the table
and chair. " I went into the forest and cut down a tree with my ax and
cut the tree into boards with my saw. Then I cut and shaped the boards
to make the table with it's legs and the chair."

Now I can again expand the explanation by telling you how I made the
legs for the table. " I took a board, and after cutting it to the right
length I made it square. Then I put it on a wood lathe and turned it to
be round."

As you can see, that while the first statement is complete in itself.
However, it was not true until after I had performed the work that I
described, after the statement. I didn't have to describe how I made the
table and chair in order for the first statement, that I made the table
and chair, to be true. The only difference is the order in which I
placed it in this example. It would fit perfectly well if I had placed
the statement at the end after telling you the details of how I made it.

In the statement made by God in Genesis 1:1 would have fit just as well
if it were the last verse of the chapter. Where then would the Gap be if
there ever was one??

We can see this style of writing continuing into the second chapter. In
Genesis 1:27 it says "So God created man in his own image, in the image
of God created he him; male and female created he them." Note here that
God has both man and woman completed in this verse without any details
to explain. Now in chapter 2, God starts giving us additional details
about His creating the Earth and Man. We see in chapter 2:7 and 2:21-22
that He has now explained how He made the man and woman that He spoke of
in Genesis 1:27. The writing style is the same as that used in Genesis
1:1 and Genesis 1:2+. This is a confirmation that chapter one does not
have a gap whereby either evolution or another previous world existed.

ON TO JEREMIAH:

Jeremiah chapter 4 is used as a proof of a previous world. Quoted were
verses 23-28


Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and
void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills
moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the
heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the
cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his
fierce anger.
4:27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet
will I not make a full end.
4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black:
because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent,
neither will I turn back from it.

This is interesting, but, what is it saying? The original claim at the
start of this paper says that these verses prove that there was a gap
between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 in which there was a previous world,
made by God, which He then destroyed, with everything on the Earth, and
remade into our present world.
The first step to finding the truth is to answer the questions we have
listed above, using all of Jeremiah chapter 4. That will tell us if the
above text from Jeremiah is being used within it's contents and
therefore does have the meaning claimed for it, or if it has been taken
out of contents, and therefore giving a meaning that it does not have.

In this chapter, God calls to Israel, reminding them of His great mercy
but also warning them of His anger and vengeance. And finally
Lamentations for Judah. Jeremiah chapter 4 starts with God speaking.

Jeremiah 4:1-2 God promises that if Israel will stop it's idol worship
and turn again to Him that their nation will not have judgment brought
against it and that the nations which surround them will bless the
nation of Israel also.

3-4 God says, turn to Me or I will vent my fury against you.

6 If you do not return to Me, then I will bring destruction upon you by
using the nations from the North of you.

7 I have already set them into motion and they are on their way to lay
total destruction on you.

8 Jeremiah now speaks, warning the people to repent because The Lord is
angry at them and has passed judgment on them. Destruction is coming and
they can't stop it.

9 God speaks again. When the destruction comes on them that their king
will die and all of their other leaders will be taken totally by
surprise.

10 Jeremiah speaks. He asks, God, didn't you say that peace was coming?
Are you tricking the people? This destruction will cut deep into their
souls.

11- 12 God answers, What I send upon you is not to destroy you but to
clean out the idolatry. And those that I send against you I will also
sentence to destruction.

13 God tells Jeremiah that the destruction will be extremely fast in the
very near future. Jeremiah cries out in anguish.

14 - 17 God tells Jeremiah to warn the entire nation of Israel that a
nation from far off is coming and will surround and destroy them,
because Israel has rebelled against God.

18 It will happen because of your evil ways, your wickedness that is
deep in your heart.

19 - 20 God cries out in pain over the coming destruction of Israel as a
nation because they have forced Him to judge against they. (They are
God's chosen people)

21 God asks how long will they suffer before they will turn back to Him.

22 God says that His people are foolish because they have chosen to turn
away from Him. They have chosen evil instead of good and they no longer
know Him

23 - 27 Jeremiah speaks here as God gives him a vision that compresses
time from the distant past to the distant future. This is made clear in
ver 27 where Jeremiah says "For thus hath the Lord said" and ver 28
Where God says that He plans to do it and "will not turn back form it".
This shows that the destruction will happen in the future from this
point. And also in ver 29 where the people of the city will run for
their lives. This again is in the future as shown by the word "shall"
(future) and not the word "did"(past).

23 Jeremiah is shown the Earth (I beheld or saw the Earth) when God
first formed it but before there was even light (Genesis. 1:2),

24 I saw the entire Earth shake from an earthquake.

25 I saw that there were no more men or birds on the Earth.

26 I saw The Earth that had once been fruitful was now a wasteland and
every city on the Earth had been destroyed by the Lord God in His anger.

27 God then tells Jeremiah that in spite of what he was shown that God
would not at that time totally destroy the earth.

28 God then says that the earth will mourn for it's loss and the Earth
will darken but He said that He will do this to the Earth and Will cause
it to happen.

29 God now tells of how, when He brings this destruction, that the
people in Jerusalem will run out of the city and try to find hiding
places in the country side and in the mountains. He continues with the
statement that every city on the face of the earth will be abandoned at
this time.

30 God laughs at them, no matter how rich, how beautiful, or anything
else, you will have nothing to bargain with and so your life will not be
worth anything. Everyone you meet will try to kill you.

31 God continues; You will cry out in pain as does a woman who is having
her first child. God identifies here that it is the daughters of Zion,
or the Israelites who will be suffering.

This continues in chapter 5 with God promising that at that time of
destruction, if they can find even one (1) righteous person in Jerusalem
that He will spare all of them for his sake. Like Sodom, they will not
find one.

Now we can see that in chapter 4 of Jeremiah, that God is mostly
speaking to the Israelites (or the Jews). He is pointing out their
idolatry, and is warning them that He will destroy them if they do not
give up idolatry and come back to worshipping Him. He has already
declared His judgment against them and will carry out that judgment at
some future time. They still have time to stop the judgment, if they
repent and come back to Him.

Therefore, the Entire chapter 4 of Jeremiah speaks of only three things.


1. The Idolatry of Israel.
2. The anger of God against them.
3. The destruction of Israel in the future if they do not repent.

The only thing in this chapter that showed the past was a vision that
Jeremiah was given. The rest of his vision here had to do with the
coming destruction. This is shown because it was shown in the vision
AFTER he was shown the start of the Earth and the fact that this chapter
is speaking of the Israelites who are still with us. I now believe that
it has been shown that the verses, quoted from Jeremiah and used in the
claim, were taken out of contents to prove what was not true.
I believe that it can be noted at this point that not one of the Old
Testament Prophets could distinguish the difference in time between what
was to happen immediately and what would come to pass thousands of years
later. This can be seen clearly when the Old Testament prophecies are
studied.

We can now ask if there are any other scriptures which will confirm this
interpretation of Genesis and Jeremiah.


1. There was no death in the world until Adam sinned.

1. Genesis 2:17, 3:3 If you eat of the forbidden fruit you will die.

The opposite side of that is that if you do not eat of the forbidden
fruit you will live.

2. Genesis 3:22 If Adam had ate of the fruit of the tree of Life then
Adam would have lived in human form forever as God intended.
3. Romans 5:12,17 Death entered the world by one man, referring to Adam.

2. From this we see that there was no death before Adam sinned.
Therefore:

1. Every animal and every creature ever created or made by God would
have lived until after Adam sinned.

1. To say that God created a race of men or animals and then destroyed
(killed them) is to say that the Bible lies when it says there was no
death till Adam sinned.
2. To say that any animal or dinosaurs died off millions of years ago
also says that the Bible lies.
3. To say that God used evolution over millions of years to create man
and everything on the Earth is to say that God lied when He said that He
created the Heavens and the the Earth in six days.
We could go on, but I think that this has been sufficient to show that
all of the claim, as stated at the start of this paper, is false.

--Rev. Jack Barr

Wow, Jean, I hope that was a cut and paste. Took me longer to read that
than to apply for 8 jobs this evening. LOL. Thanks for the interesting
read.

JeanC>

I did not claim a gap between the different parts of creation of even a
year. It clearly states each step in the process as a day.

However since you bring it up there is a listed gap. It does not appear
between the steps of creation but after the day of rest and before he
created Adam.

Genesis 2-4 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when
they were created...'

This clearly states GENERATIONS whereas the days of creation itself
state at each step which DAY it was. Vast differnce between a
generation and a day.

Perhaps that was the time which was needed for the created fish, fowl,
creeping things, beasts and the first created manifistation of man/woman
to evolve to the point where earth would have been populated enough to
allow for the creation of the garden.

Here ya go Eljay, Re-vi-val time.............