First of, thank you all for your posts.
Twosteper, I like your story
Pokesumi, I would like to hear how you came to be a buddhist,
your journey to that belief.
Reddykeulous, tell me more about your beliefs and tell me how you got
them, since I believe that there is a reason for everything, there must
be one for that as well.
Jess a thread can only be as safe as all the posters make
it. Maybe with my wording in the original post I have already offended
the one or other.
Tomokun, I would like to read your manifest, it will make an
interesting read.
I have so far learned a bit about a few of you and I'm glad that we can
describe something that is US without being taken
wrong.

Invisible....(will I ever get used to saying that?)

Will you share with us your beliefs also?

How you arrived at your place of understanding?

I was raised in the City of Hamburg as a Lutheranian Protestant.
Our weekends we spend in a small house in the country.
I loved nature, was always to be found (or rather not found)
in the woods. My parents were afraid I would get lost, but I never did.
I loved the forest, could sit in one spot for hours to watch the
creatures around me.
When I grew older my parents sold this little abode and all the nature I
got to see were the various parks. But things were different there as it
was a nature created by humans.
I don't really remember what age I was when my parents started to
send me to youth groups in our church where we were taught to pray, sing
hymns and were told stories of the bible.
When I was heading on 15 it was time for my confirmation.
To understand this right you have to know that our parish church was
devided in two parishes as the population around was very high. The
pastor of my part one day told me that he couldn't confirm me as the
leader of the youth group I was attending at that time wasn't liked by
him as he was living in "sin" with a woman. There was huge commotion as
my father (an atheist) went
to the church elders and it was decided that I was to be confirmed by
the other pastor.
The same pastor that didn't confirm me was later imprisoned for
taking money of elderly people for his son to invest.
He had a great life from that money and the people never got it back as
it was hidden.
This only shows that people are human.
While attending church however I discovered that something was missing.
I didn't feel complete somehow as I had in my childhood in the woods.
Every chance I had I took a train to outside the city, where there was
real nature, were I could spend my days as I had in childhood. There I
felt complete, saw how nature was a whole, and that I was but a small
part in it, an equal part as everything else

to be continued

Naturally enough I started to ask questions, my father, my mother,
and the pastor.
My fathers answered that he doesn't care, as long as I'm happy with what
I believe. My mother, not very firm in her belief, sent me to the
pastor.
The pastor told me that God is only to be found in the church, the place
that was built to worship HIM. He told me to pray for understanding and
the feeling of completion would come.
At that point I gave up on church, I preferred to spend my sundays out
in the country, to see the life around me, hear birds singing, see the
grass sway in the breeze, watch the little world ants and other bugs
lived in. By watching and listening to my inner self I came to the
conclusion that God, or a higher deity, was in nature, and as I was part
of the nature, it was in me also.
I'm sorry if that sounds confusing, sometimes I find it hard to explain
things properly and in order

Thankyou, makes perfect sense to me..

Hi Invisible,
I just enjoyed reading your words thank you!

Invisible hun, there was nothing confusing about your words at all.
They come the closest o feelinghow I feel as well.

I for one first met the church (not god, but the church) when my parents
split up; I as about 5 years old, and my mom took me and my brother to a
faith luthern church. As we kept on the run, trying to hide from my
father at the time, we did nto stay at the church long (considering we
were all speerated for one year, I am assuming the stay at church was
abot a month, maybe two at max).
Until I turned 18 and left for the army, I had never gone to church
again, not even had an interest. However, at eighteen and in the army I
could still remember having gone to that faith luthern church. Thirteen
years later, still a kid and I could actively describe my sunday school
room, and the sanctuary, although I had only ever seen it about 6 times
when I was five.
At this point I started searching out religion, and considering I was in
the army, I had an extremely large cultural base to learn from. T keep
this short for now (have to et son to bus stop) I started going to roman
catholic service. That did not appeal to me, and I moved on to
protestant (general), methodist, presbyterian, and several others before
I found the episcopal church and the elca luthern whose beliefs are so
similar that the episcopal priest can serve communion at a elca luthern
service as can the pastor of the elca for the Episcopal. These are the
two religions that have hit closest to hom ewith me because of the fact
that they do not turn their backs on other religins and welcome all
believers into their church. however we now come back to the word
church.
Every single religion I have looked into agrees on one thing; you have
to attend church or you are commit a sin. And I am fully one hundred
percent against that. I do not believe you HAVE to attend CHURCH in
order to be saved, or enlightened or whatever you want to call it. I do
not believe that you have to speak of your sins to any other human alive
or dead in order to be forgiven. This is all human retoric.
So, with that being said, the best answer I can coem u pwith at this
time is I believe in the natural order of things in the world. This
natural order DOES include an all-powerful being (GOD) cause it is only
a part of nature for there to be something stronger or weaker than
something else.
I find peace and enlightenment through nature, and human life along with
just sitting back and reflecting on the good from time to time.
I love to sing, and as I have said the episcopal and elca luthern
services have come closest to my beliefs, so I attend them somewhat
regularly so I can participate in their choirs.
However, I do notbelieve I am required to go to any specific buildign or
group of people in order to feel HIS love and forgiveness.

Oh and twostepp I love whatyou said about inviting other churches in in
order to learn from them; I trust that learnign is a two way street? I
may have to talk to you more about your religion and see if I can locate
a local service to talk with.

I was raised SAouthern Baptist but as I got older I began to question
the beliefs I had been raised on. I don't have a name for my beliefs, I
follow no structured faith.

I believe in Karma, I believe what we do in this life is effected by our
past lives and I believe our actions in the now will effect the lives to
come. I believe we have soul mates, not necessarily romantic soulmates
but people who we have encountered in past lives and will encounter
again in future lifes.

I believe we keep being reincarnated until we reach a higher level of
spirituality and understanding.

I believe that what we do, everything has an effect on something or
someone whether good or bad.

I believe we do have romantic soulmates, but even though we may
encounter them in our present lifetime does not mean we will be with
them again in this lifetime.

I believe that everything happens for a reason, even if we do not
understand it.

I could go on and on but I think you get the general idea.

thank you all for your responses.

I hope to get a lot more

I grew up in a household where God was mostly set off to the side,
hidden in a corner, or just some guy whose name turned up in the Pledge
of Allegiance. Our money said we trusted him, and nobody really ever
bothered to think about it much.

We never went to church when I was a kid, except for the odd wedding or
funeral. Mom and Dad both worked the standard five-day, 40-hour week,
and they wanted their weekends free for arguing and calling each other
names. There was no time for God.

But, if pressed on the issue, Mom would confess she had some vague
notion of who God was, and what his role in the universe was. As far as
she was concerned, God lived in a faraway heavenly place of clouds and
angels and harps and haloes. She assumed good people went to Heaven,
and bad people went to Hell, which was a dirty word (the worst swear
word we had back in those days, in fact), so don't ever say "Hell" or
you'll go to Hell. She never did explain how the residents of Hell,
Michigan, and Hell, Norway, got around that particular restriction.

Anyway, she seemed pretty comfortable with having God as a non-factor,
albeit (in her eyes) a legitimate and existing one, in her life. I
absorbed her attitudes largely through osmosis; it was clear, early on,
that I had a lot more time to play than most of my friends had. They
were constantly being dragged off to some church, or burdened with some
sort of Holy Day of Obligation or whatever, whereas I never had to deal
with any of that nonsense.

I was well-suited to become a seven-year-old agnostic.

My grandmother (Mom's Mom) died when I was ten, and Mom went through a
rough patch.

I asked her, "But isn't Grandma in Heaven now? Isn't she with God now?"

And Mom said, "There is no God." That was it -- that was all she said.
"There is no God."

This gave me something to think about. I couldn't figure out if she was
just mad at God for taking Grandma away (which was pretty much how I
felt, seeing as how Grandma had spoiled me rotten since the day I was
born), or if this event had somehow broken down a barrier, allowing Mom
to express her true (but up until now, repressed) feelings.

She never talked about God again. To the day she died, I never heard
her mention God or religion or church or anything.
My other Grandmother gave me a Bible when I was fifteen. She wasn't a
particularly religious person, as far as I could tell; I think she just
found the book while cleaning the attic or something, knew I loved to
read, and probably figured I hadn't read it before.

I hadn't.

I found it a difficult read. All of the "thous" and "shalts" and
"cubits" and "ephods" and such made me feel like I was slogging my way
through quicksand. I read the whole thing, though, but felt I hadn't
really understood much, and began again.

After the seventh time, I realized I would never fully understand all of
it. So I started reading various commentaries and histories and
interpretations; I read the Apocrypha, I read Josephus, I read
everything I could find on the subject.

I read the Book of Mormon and the Koran and all sorts of Jewish
literature. I read the Watchtower and The Great Controversy and Carrot
Worship Monthly and whatever else I could get my hands on.

And, in the end, I couldn't make any real sense of any of it. I
couldn't reconcile the world I saw, the world I knew and lived in, with
a Supreme Being of any kind at all, whether man or woman or giant turtle
supporting the earth on its back.



Even in my ultimate and inevitable abandonment of religion, I could
understand why so many millions, billions, would be so addicted to it.
I saw how it could offer a comfort to people who needed comforting, and
who had no other options. I could see how the idea of a loving, caring,
all-knowing God could provide hope for a future when today becomes
intolerable.

But I also saw how religion causes people to kill each other, to justify
that killing in the name of the Lord. I saw one religion after another
proclaim itself "the one true faith" and condemn all infidels to Hell.

They couldn't all be right....

I saw fanatics, lunatics, all too willing to destroy themselves simply
to kill a few of the others.

I saw nations invade other nations, armies kill civilians, civilians do
their best to kill the invaders; I saw cultures looted and pillaged and
raped and plundered, all in the name of the Lord.

I saw world leaders claim to have special insight from God, special
communications with God; God told them what to do, who to kill. That
made it OK.

I saw "men of the cloth" bilk the stupid and the misguided and the naive
out of millions and millions of dollars.

I saw people die because the religious leaders told them it was wrong to
have an abortion or a blood transfusion.

"It's the will of God," the religious leaders would always say when
someone died unnecessarily. "It's all part of God's plan. He must have
needed him up there in Heaven."

"Needed"?? God couldn't have given the poor guy another twenty or
thirty years on earth? He "needed" him in Heaven right this minute?

I reached the conclusion that no God worth the title would have left us
with this mess we call the world today.

I reached the conclusion that we did this to ourselves, and not even
thousands of years of self-delusion and playing "Pass the Buck to the
Lord" would change that fact.

We did this to ourselves.

It doesn't matter which mythological figure we try to blame -- Odin,
Zeus, Baal, Anubis, Vishnu, Jupiter, the Lone Ranger, Batman, Darth
Vader, or God -- the fault lies within ourselves.

Ourselves.



I was willing to be proven wrong.

There was a time when I prayed. I was never really convinced anybody
was listening, but I figured it couldn't hurt -- who knows?

And sometimes -- infrequently, but often enough to get my attention --
it would seem that a prayer had been answered. And a spark of what they
like to call "faith" would be kindled for a moment.

But it didn't last. Because I had to admit, eventually, that the things
that had happened, were, in fact, just that. Things that had happened.

No God, no divine intervention, no miracles, no "help from above," no
"somebody up there likes me."

Someone once observed, "We must necessarily find ourselves living on an
inhabitable world," when asked about the "miracle" of our planet being
so hospitable to life.

Similarly, I saw the delusion of "answered prayer" in the same light.
Pray for enough things, over a long enough period of time, and --
assuming you're not praying for things which are utterly impossible --
sooner or later, one or two of your wishes will be fulfilled.

But that doesn't mean there's an omniscient and omnipotent Supreme Being
doling out favors to the faithful. In the end, it's just the law of
averages.



I was willing to be proven wrong.

There were moments, moments when I lost my grip on my skepticism, if
only briefly. There were moments when "gift from God" fell, full-blown,
into my consciousness. The beginning of my relationship with my ex-wife
(before we got married, and things soured, and she turned into a drunken
assassin); the day I scored the winning goal in the best-of-seven street
hockey tournament -- there were times I felt "blessed."

But was I? Really? These were just events, events in the course of a
life, events occurring within a "spectrum of probability" -- some good,
some bad, some neither way.


I heard a conversation at the mall once; a man had just been released
from the hospital after having been hit by a car. He suffered a
concussion, a broken arm, and had a few stitches in his head. He just
happened to run into two friends in front of the Orange Julius, and they
were catching up:

MAN: Yeah, so, my doctor said I was really lucky. Said if my head hit
the sidewalk a little different, I'd be dead, or paralyzed.

FRIEND 1: How long do you have to wear that cast?

MAN: Six to eight weeks, he said.

FRIEND 2: And how's Jenny managing things while you're temporarily
disabled? (Laughs.)

MAN: It's not so bad. I can do most things left-handed, except writing
or throwing....

FRIEND 1: You're lucky, man.

MAN: Yeah, I find myself thanking God every day. It could have been so
much worse. I could've been dead, or brain-damaged, or lost an arm or a
leg, or....

FRIEND 2: So you're thanking God that it wasn't a whole lot worse....?

MAN: Yeah, every day.

FRIEND 2: But isn't that the same God who let the car hit you in the
first place?

MAN: Huh?

FRIEND 2: Well, look. OK, sure, it could have been worse. You're
alive, you're walking around, you seem to have all your faculties. Your
arm's gonna heal, sure -- but why'd God let the car hit you at all?

MAN: Uh, well....

FRIEND 2: My point exactly.

MAN: He must have had his reasons. (Unconvincingly.)

FRIEND 1: Such as....?

MAN: Uh, I don't know. He does things we can't possibly understand.
He has his purposes, we can't know them. We're not on that level.

FRIEND 2: So if you had been killed, that would also be part of his
purpose?

MAN: Let's talk about something else.



"God's will." It's a catch-all, a pass-the-buck, a junk drawer, an
excuse, an abdication of responsibility. "I didn't mean to blow up that
office building, God made me this way, and I'm just doing his will."


Still, I was willing to be proven wrong.

I said, "Show me, Lord, show me something. Show me something
definitive. Show me a sign. Show me that you're there, that you're
listening, that you're who everybody likes to say you are."

No response.



People tell me: Go outside. Take a walk. Look at the grass, the trees,
the birds, the clouds, the kids in the playground, the houses, the cars,
the stars, the families, the friends, the pets, the beach, the oceans --
the beauty, the balance, the life....

And, yes, there is beauty there, and hope, and love, and goodness.

But:

If God did all of that....

Then he also did the bombs and the guns and the shattered bodies and
shattered minds and the wars and the diseases and the corruptions and
the betrayals and infidelities and lies and torture and deprivations and
cruelties and death.

Or -- at the very least -- he allowed all of that to happen.


Where's the Godliness in that....?



Even now, even today, I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I used to have a dog named Rusty, who I loved very much. There would be
times when I would be watching TV, and Rusty would walk up and plop her
head on my knee. And I would look into those brown eyes and see a kind
of wisdom that gave me a little shiver. Rusty was more than a dog. She
had a knowledge, an essence, that transcends anything a human being
--this human being -- could ever understand.

I could see something of God in Rusty. If I let myself think along
those lines. Or am I just romanticizing, attributing a spiritual depth
to a simple domesticated creature who couldn't even answer the phone?

So I guess I'm still capable of a little self-delusion. I guess we're
probably all capable of a little self-delusion. Or a lot -- some more
than others.

Maybe a little self-delusion is a good thing. Maybe it helps keep us
sane.

Maybe what we need, instead of God and a religion, is something that
gives us hope without being divisive and murderous and power-hungry and
greedy and vengeful and malignant....

My belief is in AA and NA. I have been following this belief for 23
years. It is important for me to remember my last relapse for if I don't
I might relapse, again. It is important for me to remember that my best
thinking got me to the doors of the detox center drunk and stoned out of
my head. I went through delerium tremens and from looking at the
pictures of my old driver's license and the one that got took after I
stopped doing paint stripper and trying to drown myself in alcohol that
I had done some damage to my liver. The damage wasn't permanent though
because I eventually got back a natural skin tone. I am very thankful
that Bill W. and Dr. Bob helped to put the AA program together from the
principles set forth from the Oxford groups. I was able to relate from
reading Dr. Bob's nightmare. The AA program they put together in 1935
was adapted to the NA program in 1959. I can honestly state that I am
powerless over alcohol and drugs. Alcohol and drugs are not my god and I
don't worship them. I always want the hand of AA to be there. As long as
the ties that bind us together are stronger than those that will tear us
apart; All will be well. Recovery depends on NA unity. The program saved
my ass. It taught me that it was possible that I might be wrong. An
alcoholic or an addict alone is in bad company. I am just one drink or
fix away from a relapse. I am happy, joyous and free.

I personally do not believe in any major religion, but i do believe in
spirits and reincarnation, because i just don't think we go up to this
big cloudy place and eat dinner... i think that life is about the
lessons that you continually learn, but that's my personal philosophy

i like your outlook on life invisible. im a founding member of Tootpu,
the order of the perpetually unenlightened. i am agnostic.no one can
prove or disprove a beLIEf system based on faith in something
ineffable.i am sure there is no shame being dissolute life is a buzz and
when the right apple comes along im gunner start chompin

The 7th Secret of Magic;It Takes Will,your highest source of energy is
your own heart.the paradox is that you are conditioned to protect your
heart,a behaviour motivated by fear your fears are comunicated to you by
thoughts and feelings.there can be no sustainable change in your
experience of life unless you have the will to choose going for your
heart over resolving your thoughts and feelings.

.

so watt should i say to that danial

Wow Lex, that was quite a story, everybody can understand where you are
coming from, thank you

Roy, thank you for sharing your story also

And thanks to sororitygirl4you

Kari

I hope it's ok to make an observation. I have read each and every reply
here, and in all the topics where beliefs are shared or brought to
light. I know that this site is but a small sampling of poeple. It
is, however, very diverse and far reaching and the observations I will
make, are not limited to those comments and insights I have received on
JSH.

My experience is that those children left to ponder, consider and attain
a spriituality of their own accord, seem to be the most prolific, the
most understanding and the most open minded. These are people who solve
problems, who think about and explore all manner of options in this
world.

This holds true for those who have cast off the more confined and
limiting state of organized religions, for something they find, puts
them in tune, in touch with this world as it is, with it's people as
they are. Though some,still harbor animosity toward the group that made
the journey to this path so difficult. They have grown and become
explorers too.

In no way am I saying that those of organized religions can not be
wonderful, intelligent poeple, it is just my personal experience that
the best development of one's spirituality is found through an
individual series of explorations. To hamper this growth, this feeling
of oneness, of belonging in this universe, with the dogma of an ancient
religion, that only serves to propagate segregation, is to limit the far
ranging adptabilty and inquisitive nature of a growing child.

This is my observation here and it upholds one of those beliefs I did
not list as an atheist. I chose to withhold as, by itself, it seems
confrontational. But here with this explanation I will post a further
belief.

As an atiest I believe:

That religion is not for us to teach.
What is ours to teach is that every individual has the right to find
for themselves, through their own explorations, how they fit into this
world and what they choose to believe.
What is ours to teach is that,

(everything in this world has some value), and (only through respect
of that which is valuable) do we learn and grow.

I think one the reasons is that as children we act more on instinct
because we are not yet fettered by the things we learn
in school once we get a bit older.
The other reason might be that we are more easily impressed by simple
things.
Thanks for your post, it is always a pleasure to read you