As the staement goews, perhaps paraphrased a little: "Is it better to live as if there is a god, and find out there is not, or live as if there is not one, and find out there is?"

Yes, perhaps we should throw out all the stuff mentioned in the bible. First to go is the ten commandments, and all laws associated with them in civil society. Yaeh, I kinda like that. I would love to see how long all you libs and atheists and agnostics and bible haters would survive. Remember, Most of the ones with guns are bible believers...lol. Lets see all you guys and ladies defend eliminating the laws based on the ten commandments. Bet you either cannot nor have you the guts too.

Sir, seeing as we don’t use the 10 commandments now in our modern day legal system and instead use the The Code of Hammurabi inherited from the ancient Pagan Babylonians, then aren’t we already doing that?

It was their law. It's still the law in countries under Sharia. The reasons why this sort of thing is bad for the society are numerous. It's not like the punishment was a secret. Both parties would know the punishment beforehand.

And as I already pointed out, the law wasn't blind. The Judges back then were religious scholars. They were the smartest most highly educated people in Israel and they laws of the Bible were used as a guideline. Tamar wasn't executed when she was raped. Her rape became known and she still wasn't punished. She didn't scream because her rapist was her half brother and she didn't want him to be executed. Obviously someone took that into account when they allowed her to not be punished.



As I have already pointed out, the daughter didn't have to sleep or even live with her new husband, but he had to support her and couldn't divorce her. She could divorce him, if she desired. The daughter would likely stay married to the guy, because she had loved him enough to have consensual sex with him. She would also be happy to have a husband so that she could have children and raise a family. But of course if she decided that she wanted none of that, she could live off her new husband or she could divorce him and return to her father's house.

I guess it's God's fault that men back then wanted to marry virgins, so that they wouldn't get a terrible VD and die.



What happened to those women? They were killed. The soldiers had disobeyed God by allowing the non-virginal women to live, Moses was outraged when he asked that question. I'm sure that sympathy moved the Israelite soldiers to let the women live, but God must have had reason for them to be put to death. Their religion for one. Diseases and what they would have taught their sons and daughters is another. The young women and girls were allowed to be slaves. Women are MUCH more likely to integrate into the society. Women whose husbands have just been killed are likely to raise children to hate their new society. Ever seen God Father 2? Young boys can harbor hate for years. Young women typically lack the high levels of testosterone that would lead them to brooding on hate. The Egyptians and the Chinese both would castrate male enemies and turn them into extremely loyal slaves. Once the testosterone is gone, the fires of hate burn low and they eunuch would just care about being treated well and forget about revenge.

I think that a very strong case can be made to explain why a conquering nation would want to eliminate all married women and boys from the conquered nation. To not do so would lead to rebellion and civil war.

I will agree to part of that,But, if we are going to attack the bible, let us attack everything it says equally. I personally try to practice most of the positive aspects expressed in the bible, and I ignore those things which run counter to my personal beliefs. I suppose that is no different than you, the difference is, I grant you the right to run off at the mouth about things you do not believe in without, generally, responding. I seek for you to defend your rantings occasionally, and generally, no defense of your stand on items ever surfaces. All I ask is that you defend eliminating all things staed in the bible from our law structure. and the only defense is..."Well, it came from somewhere else"

I know it was their law. That has been the point of this thread. To clearly depict these horrible Laws that were supposedly the word of god. Of course they are reprehensible and unjust. No one is claiming otherwise.



Why would you stone to death a woman who was clearly raped? It’s unfathomable. It’s inhuman. Yet we know this would take place routinely. If a woman was raped, she would be stoned to death. This is part of the reason Mary was probably terrified. If a woman was discovered not to be a virgin on her wedding night, she could be murdered if this were to be substantiated by her new husband. Its wretched yet this is the word of god.



And this somehow makes it justified in your eyes? How? Why? He was forced to marry her because her life was essentially over. He had destroyed any value in this culture that she would have retained since he had taken her virginity. Aside from virginity, the only value females had was in their ability to bare and to raise sons for their husbands. Childbirth was the most dangerous undertaking a woman could have performed in these times. Do you really think she would divorce and return to her father's house? Who would have her after that? She would essentially be trapped with him. A woman had very little if any independence and she lacked the ability to get out from underneath these men. Fathers to husbands like property.



They were raped spider. Moses allowed them to do this. Sympathy my ass spider. Why did they have no sympathy for the non virgin women then? Why would only young virginal women make good slaves Spider? Because these men could have sex with them and they were prisoners of war. They were spoils of victory spider. You aren’t 8. I’m not going to talk to you as if you are a child. The non virgin women had no husbands spider as they had been killed. The ONLY prisoners that were left alive were the virgin women and female children who had not "known a man" This was so they could rape them spider.

That is not a "defense". What point would I need to defend myself on? You asked why don’t we eliminate the Ten Commandments from our legal system and I said we don’t include them now as it is. They can not even be publicly displayed on a court house building. What are you talking about?

Krimsa,

I think I have done a fairly good job explaining those scriptures as I understand them. I don't believe you have offered any arguments to refute mine, you have just repeated your previous assertions. But I can't make you read or accept what you read and I think I have already done a good job explaining my position, so I'm going to bow out.

I never said that you did not explain what you feel or believe. I’m just telling you that based on what I am actually reading there in the bible, it doesn’t hold up. I’m not going to get into a "who has refuted who" argument because that is pointless. If you believe your position is correct then you will never see any evidence that supersedes that position. The main argument I am hearing is this was a different time and place in history and women were treated in a manner that seems foreign to us living in a westernized civilization. That I would not argue with because we know from a historical perspective that women have had to fight for even the right to vote or hold public office.

Its not a matter of refutation, its simple they are what they are, and if this is god law then he is a sick basterd.

Simple.

The thing is, its not really gods law, its mans law, men that wish for the authority of a god. Not so hard to understand.

Spider is a good kid, we just like to argue. If he says black, I will say white.

actually the bible calls for the death penalty for rape and murder

Sadly, the victims of rape also were executed very often. Also women found to not be virgins.