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Isn't the bottom line the subjective state of the patient? Isn't the whole purpose of any kind of "therapy" to make the patient feel better? If an "alternative" therapy can accomplish that, then that therapy works, by the only really valid criteria - the subjective opinion of the patient. Anything else is someone else trying to push an agenda. I agree, and my point is on intellectual honesty and knowing why something works.
Do you think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy knew why it worked? No. But neither do I think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy didn’t know why it worked, so I guess I don’t understand the point of the question. If one wishes to be intellectually honest, that is fine. But it is also fine if they don’t. As your question implies, intellectual honesty is not a requirement for workability. |
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That is true, but its should be required for respect. For me, the bottom is - does it work? To what degree is there a consistancy of it working. How easy or difficult is it to do. Do I have to depend on someone else for results, or can I do it myself for the most part? The rest of it can come later as to the who, what, when, where, why, how and so forth. I'm sort of an A to B person in that respect because I've heard so much "theory" and ramblings on about methods, that I just wanna get down to the nitty gritty and see if it works. That's the proof - not the rest of it. Everything else is 
:) Kozee |
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no tools sublime just speak the mind, no bellow no settle for black is the kettle, expell good hate or fear blind hearts abate, unwind the mind the deep well fall and find, nothing to lose drop the dime awaken the snooze, break bowels drop cradles reach low dip the ladel, lower the boom let it bloom ride a long tune, empty minds sip tea cups of energy o plenty.......
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Isn't the bottom line the subjective state of the patient? Isn't the whole purpose of any kind of "therapy" to make the patient feel better? If an "alternative" therapy can accomplish that, then that therapy works, by the only really valid criteria - the subjective opinion of the patient. Anything else is someone else trying to push an agenda. I agree, and my point is on intellectual honesty and knowing why something works.
Do you think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy knew why it worked? No. But neither do I think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy didn’t know why it worked, so I guess I don’t understand the point of the question. If one wishes to be intellectually honest, that is fine. But it is also fine if they don’t. As your question implies, intellectual honesty is not a requirement for workability. Different people respect things for different reasons. Some would say that workability is more deserving of respect than intellectual honesty. Unfortunately, disrespect can (and does) drive people away from alternatives that might help them. So in some cases, the “respect factor” can actually be detrimental to the patient. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Sun 01/25/09 08:10 AM
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That is true, but its should be required for respect. For me, the bottom is - does it work? To what degree is there a consistancy of it working. How easy or difficult is it to do. Do I have to depend on someone else for results, or can I do it myself for the most part? The rest of it can come later as to the who, what, when, where, why, how and so forth. I'm sort of an A to B person in that respect because I've heard so much "theory" and ramblings on about methods, that I just wanna get down to the nitty gritty and see if it works. That's the proof - not the rest of it. Everything else is
:) Kozee Isn't the bottom line the subjective state of the patient? Isn't the whole purpose of any kind of "therapy" to make the patient feel better? If an "alternative" therapy can accomplish that, then that therapy works, by the only really valid criteria - the subjective opinion of the patient. Anything else is someone else trying to push an agenda. I agree, and my point is on intellectual honesty and knowing why something works.
Do you think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy knew why it worked? No. But neither do I think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy didn’t know why it worked, so I guess I don’t understand the point of the question. If one wishes to be intellectually honest, that is fine. But it is also fine if they don’t. As your question implies, intellectual honesty is not a requirement for workability. Different people respect things for different reasons. Some would say that workability is more deserving of respect than intellectual honesty. Unfortunately, disrespect can (and does) drive people away from alternatives that might help them. So in some cases, the “respect factor” can actually be detrimental to the patient. Sorry Sky, saying that having respect for someone becuase they can explain something driving people way? Cant say I even understand where you are coming from with this, when I know the person giving treatment can explain in scientific terms how its done, then that can only reassure a person. You will have to give an example so I can make fun of it. Research = understanding. Woo = middle ages think. |
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no tools sublime just speak the mind, no bellow no settle for black is the kettle, expell good hate or fear blind hearts abate, unwind the mind the deep well fall and find, nothing to lose drop the dime awaken the snooze, break bowels drop cradles reach low dip the ladel, lower the boom let it bloom ride a long tune, empty minds sip tea cups of energy o plenty....... Reminds me of "rapping". :) KL |
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no tools sublime just speak the mind, no bellow no settle for black is the kettle, expell good hate or fear blind hearts abate, unwind the mind the deep well fall and find, nothing to lose drop the dime awaken the snooze, break bowels drop cradles reach low dip the ladel, lower the boom let it bloom ride a long tune, empty minds sip tea cups of energy o plenty....... Reminds me of "rapping". :) KL perhaps it's tapping a rapping what cause the heart self hurtful smacking, lol.... |
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To know if, and how it works requires study, and again if you look at page one Redy cited a study that explains how it works backed up with research. I respect a "why" person as there are times I'm like that myself. I like to know why something is working because it lets me become more flexible with it. With EFT the basics are so simple that you can do it and then learn why it works as you're doing it. That's what happened to me. Someone I knew just simply showed me how to do it, within about 20 minutes or so. After that I started learning several ways of doing it and started looking at why it worked at times and why other times it did not. Its not a "fullproof" type of thing. Just depends on what you're addressing and whether one can let it go or not or spot the right "source" of the problem or not. So far, in all the time I've been doing EFT, I have never had it have an adverse reaction, where leaving myself in the middle of something has created more problems than I wanted or already had. Its never made something "worse". So, doing it on yourself, at the worse case scenario, is that nothing happens at all. Again, its almost like "energy psychology" for dummies :). If you go to www.tapping.com you can see how to do it through videos - or you can always go to Youtube where there are several different people that do it and you can see their styles. There's one that Gary Craig has put out called EFT for War Veterans. Its a really cool video http://www.emofree.com/splash/video_vets.asp Kozee |
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I just did some tapping and feel very relaxed. It really calms the mind.
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I just did some tapping and feel very relaxed. It really calms the mind. Did you do it from www.tapping.com? There are specific "affirmation" type of sayings for the purpose of feeling uplifted and relaxed. If you're interested, I could find them and post a few :). Kozee |
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I did go to that site with Magnus. If you have any other good sites, I would be interested. Thanks
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Edited by
SkyHook5652
on
Sun 01/25/09 04:54 PM
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Isn't the bottom line the subjective state of the patient? Isn't the whole purpose of any kind of "therapy" to make the patient feel better? If an "alternative" therapy can accomplish that, then that therapy works, by the only really valid criteria - the subjective opinion of the patient. Anything else is someone else trying to push an agenda. I agree, and my point is on intellectual honesty and knowing why something works.
Do you think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy knew why it worked? No. But neither do I think it would stop working if the person receiving the therapy didn’t know why it worked, so I guess I don’t understand the point of the question. If one wishes to be intellectually honest, that is fine. But it is also fine if they don’t. As your question implies, intellectual honesty is not a requirement for workability. Unfortunately, disrespect can (and does) drive people away from alternatives that might help them. So in some cases, the “respect factor” can actually be detrimental to the patient. Sure plenty of superstitious people respect astrology. They are still not going to be the ones to make big breakthroughs in understanding. Sorry Sky, saying that having respect for someone becuase they can explain something driving people way? Cant say I even understand where you are coming from with this, when I know the person giving treatment can explain in scientific terms how its done, then that can only reassure a person. You will have to give an example so I can make fun of it. Yes, I can see how you wouldn’t understand where I was coming from. You just misunderstood what I meant by “respect factor”. So let me rephrase it. Altenative therapies can (and do) produce positive results. Disrespecting alternative therapies can (and does) influence patients so as to cause them to refuse to try those therapies, which would deny such patients any possible benefit from those therapies. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Sun 01/25/09 07:41 PM
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How is understanding the method by which something works disrespect, I think you are mistaken.
Disrespect in miss-characterizing something is all together different. |
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scrutiny and precision be all good things of wisdom.........
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How is understanding the method by which something works disrespect. I never said it was and I have no idea how it could be, so the only answer I can think of is: through a misunderstanding.
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I did go to that site with Magnus. If you have any other good sites, I would be interested. Thanks
Here's another "site" that has a video imbedded there about "affirmations": http://www.howtobecomeamillionaire.us/category/positive-affirmation/ Then for affirmation ideas there's: http://ezinearticles.com/?Top-EFT-Tapping-Tips-and-Affirmations&id=1325261 There's a Dr. Mercola who has some interesting things on his site: http://www.mercola.com/forms/eftcourse6.htm Anyways, there's lots of info if you just type "key" words into Google. :) Kozee |
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Edited by
Maikuru
on
Mon 01/26/09 06:36 PM
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Honestly this really just semantics. EFT is no different from reiki, Qi quong, Tai chi, or what we Taoist call Chi Kung, or any of the energy work and medicine whose roots lie in eastern shamanism and vedic practices. Western culture and medicine is still catching up to this and struggling to attach scientific terminology and names to ancient methods and practices of healing that work through what can best be discribed as Internal Alchemy. Its called GetOffYourAssAndExcerciseAndDoSomeThingFun. Long name, but it really gets the juices flowing. My problem with any of this stuff is that is claims to effect energy, which has been tested in clinical and scientific settings and no evidence what so ever has been found to support such claims. That is not to say that these techniques have no value, but to be intellectually honest is to admit either you don't know why it works, or to do like Di and cite a proper study that explains it honestly. Let us begin on how Chi/Qi/Ki/Primal universal energy works. First lets go back to basic bio-chemistry. How does the body get the energy it needs to sustain itself? Where does the ten ohms of electric current come from that the nervous system runs off of? Why does the human body emit an electromagnetic field? The western scientific answer is energy. Our body breaks down everthing into nutrients, vitamins, sugars, proteins and minerals. These are then in turn converted by bio-chemical reactions in the body into said energy. All these methods are about manipulating that energy to improve health and well-being, thus the reason it is associated with chinese medicine which is still years ahead of western medicine IMO. Western science and medicine tends to disregard this energy becuase it is diffucult to provide the energy in the form of physical substance which can then be scrutinized and poked at it. The fact is even science has to admit there is a source of energy that powers the human body. Just because they can't measure it and put it on the periodic table does not mean that it is not there. These people tend be sensory based in their perceptions and philosophies about what is real. Now as to those sources you requested: http://www.tai-chi-fitness-for-health.com/tai-chi-health-healing-evidence.html http://www.reflexology-research.com/scientific_evidence.html http://www.medicinenet.com/tai_chi/page2.htm http://www.scribd.com/doc/192882/Tai-Chi-QigongEnergy-Scientific-Experimentation That should help you....... 
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Honestly this really just semantics. EFT is no different from reiki, Qi quong, Tai chi, or what we Taoist call Chi Kung, or any of the energy work and medicine whose roots lie in eastern shamanism and vedic practices. Western culture and medicine is still catching up to this and struggling to attach scientific terminology and names to ancient methods and practices of healing that work through what can best be discribed as Internal Alchemy. Each and everyone has different aspects to it, but as far as basic concepts, you are correct. Each one addresses "energy" in and around the body. I am no expert in any of the above. I can only assume that some are quicker than others in attaining a clearer head and body and achieving a much purer aura and better intention with the chi. EFT does work with the energy, but at the same time addresses situations by directly looking at them. I would imagine that "energy" methods you mentioned could do the same thing, but might take a bit longer, depending on how good one has become at them. EFT has done the "east" meets "west". One releases pressures in areas of the body and at the same time can apply what is known as "energy psychology". All I can say is that you can try it on something surface at first - like perhaps if someone has cut you off in traffic or someone has annoyed you. I've mentioned where you can find how to do it and a bit about it in the other post. Its free, so what the heck :). Kozee Actually Kozee there are some distinct differences from Eft and eastern methods. In the west the term,"energy psychology" still stinks of "this is all in our heads and therefore not a part of reality." As a Taoist I am of the belief that the energy that is worked in these systems is a part of total human reality. That is to say it applys to body, mind and soul as a whole. If you say that it is the same thing then i would say putting western terminology on a clearly eastern concept is just salad dressing and dis-respects the origins of these systems. I can certainly understand you wanting to put these concepts in terms more platable to a western mind but the terms you are using by definition dismiss critic concepts that embody these systems. Another western concept you are using is the "idea of how fast a system works." This screams of a western mindset, wanting everything here and now rather then growing and developing it. I won't debate with you about speed becuase i am more focused with quality and long term results. just something to think about next time you claim we have bridged east and west. The terminology is of a western mindset and chooses to ignore vital eastern concepts by difinition alone. just something to think about... 
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Actually Kozee there are some distinct differences from Eft and eastern methods. In the west the term,"energy psychology" still stinks of "this is all in our heads and therefore not a part of reality." As a Taoist I am of the belief that the energy that is worked in these systems is a part of total human reality. That is to say it applys to body, mind and soul as a whole. If you say that it is the same thing then i would say putting western terminology on a clearly eastern concept is just salad dressing and dis-respects the origins of these systems. I can certainly understand you wanting to put these concepts in terms more platable to a western mind but the terms you are using by definition dismiss critic concepts that embody these systems. Another western concept you are using is the "idea of how fast a system works." This screams of a western mindset, wanting everything here and now rather then growing and developing it. I won't debate with you about speed becuase i am more focused with quality and long term results. just something to think about next time you claim we have bridged east and west. The terminology is of a western mindset and chooses to ignore vital eastern concepts by difinition alone. just something to think about...
I can see your view about it. So, let me clarify just a bit. Originally, EFT was Thought Field Therapy, by Roger Callahan. He was an accupressurist who had studied this chinese method for years. As the story goes, he one day was listening to a woman explain her terrible fear of water including "pools" that you can stand in. So, for some reason he took it upon himself to press just beneath her eye because that particular area also has nerve channels to the stomach area and solar plexus. Within about 5 minutes, this person's "fear" suddenly was gone. They were both surprised. The woman tested it out by actually stepping into a pool and feeling fine about it. Apparently, her fear of water never came back. However, Roger Callahan's technique was long and involved and went over many "nerve points" of the body. One had to study this method from him and it costs thousands of dollars. Then this guy, Gary Craig comes and along and says - "hey" since there are specific areas in the body where certain nerve centers seem to come together, why not just tap on those and allow for the nervous system to do the rest. This cut not only the time in half of having to touch all the different nerve areas, but it also cut the teaching time as well. As well, he also launched a great marketing program where people can do this for free, while Gary Craig also has created a program to get this method to as many professionals as possible so that this can enhance what the different professions already have. Now, I segue back into what you are referring to, Maikuru. The only thing that is really anything similar to the "east" is the meridians and the tapping or touching with fingers to those spots. That's about it. Everything else, is western. Here's an example. Let's just say that you "love" to meditate. You do it almost everyday. Then for some reason, one day you don't feel like it and then the next couple of days you notice that suddenly things are intruding or becoming more important than meditating. What you then do is simply focus on the idea that you didn't feel like it and then got distracted and start to tap on certain meridians as you totally focus on the idea you didn't feel like it and then got distracted. Get in touch with whatever feelings or emotions that were going on with you when you originally didn't feel like it and continue "tapping" or touching the meridians in sequence. If you want to get an idea of a comparison of before and after you've done this, you can give yourself a "scale" of 1 to 10 of how intense or not something is. When you have gotten to the point where none of the whole situation bothers you and you can easily go back to doing meditation - then you know its a done deal. So, that's what I meant by "east" meets "west". The physical part is the "east" and the mental part is the "west". I personally like meditating at times and have no qualms about certain eastern practices, for the most part, although I "do" admit to being very American "cultured" and have no intention of moving to India or Asia anytime soon. As far as things being only in our "heads" - I mentioned in prior email, that if I tell people to point to where their upset or trauma or situation is - most people can do that. Its not all in their head. Sometimes its in other parts of the body. So, from that I deduced that we don't hold "all" our memories in the brain in the head, necessarily. But basically, as far as I know, its all "memory" based. If you wipe out the memory, then there isn't anything to look at from the past. As far as body, mind and soul, they usually work so closely together that combining the different techniques of the physical and the mental might also bring about a more spiritual aspect. Just depends on each person and how far they want to go with awareness. As far as quickness goes - with this technique, it really depends on what a person is addressing, plus, to what degree they are willing to look at emotional and physically painful areas, plus to what degree they're willing to let go of certain things. So, some things may lift off and be gone in minutes while other things might take weeks, maybe even some months. Again, it all depends on what one is handling. This is a technique you can at least "try" on just about anything that can come up. There's no guarantee that it works 100% of the time, but there are definitely some interesting results from doing this over a period of time. :) Kozee |
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