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Topic: America is Primarily at Fault for the Conflict in Gaza
Thomas3474's photo
Thu 01/01/09 09:49 PM

If you're a conservative reading this, I know what you're thinking - typical liberal. Part of the blame America first crowd. How could this war between the Israelis and Palestinians be America's fault?

First, I love America. I chose to be an American. I think this is the greatest country on earth. And part of what makes it great is that it is self-correcting. It can take criticism and use it to make itself better. It is a country confident enough to not shout down dissenters.

So, let me offer you something you hardly ever hear in the American media. The American government had a great deal to do with the outbreak of violence in the Gaza Strip right now. The Bush administration demanded - against the advice of nearly every expert in the field and the Israeli government - that the Palestinians hold elections. They did. Hamas won.

When Hamas won, we could have pulled them in toward the direction of political action and reconciliation. Instead, we chose to isolate them, start a coup against them (read this terrific article in Vanity Fair about our attempt to overthrow Hamas) and further radicalize them. We made a mockery of the idea of democracy. We proved to them that we never meant a word of the so-called Freedom Doctrine. We only wanted elections in which our guys won.

This kind of hypocrisy has consequences. It sends a message that democracy and voting doesn't work. And our botched coup against Hamas had the effect of sending the message that violence is the answer. If you don't get your way, the proper course of action is to try to change the results through use of force.

We should have never insisted on the elections that everyone - but the inane Bush team - realized Hamas was going to win. It's not that elections are a bad idea, but it was too early in this instance. We should have laid the groundwork for Palestinians to vote in a direction that would have led to more constructive solutions. Instead, as usual, Bush was lazy and insisted on getting his way right away.

And if we were going to have elections, we absolutely, positively should have recognized the legitimate results of those elections and dealt with the consequences. In fact, this might have pulled Hamas into a governing role that demanded more pragmatism and a less radical outlook. It's easier to be a radical when you don't have to get anything done.

And on the Israeli side, we never urge caution. We always encourage over-reaction. Before Israel started this assault on Gaza, there was one Israeli casualty since the end of the cease-fire. Within the first couple of days of the Israeli assault, there are already 64 Palestinian civilians killed. And five more Israelis killed from more - not less - rocket fire from Gaza.

So, the attack has not accomplished its objective of stopping the rocket fire from Hamas - in fact, it's made it worse - and it has also killed a disproportionate number of civilians in Gaza. I do not find the argument that these civilian deaths are just "collateral damage" persuasive. It's easy to call them collateral damage when they are not your kids.

Which American would stand by and let another country bomb our cities, kill our children and then accept the excuse that the enemy was targeting military complexes but they just killed our kids as simple collateral damage? Would that sound persuasive to you if you lost your family members? Your wife? Your grandfather? Your daughter?

The US government's immediate reaction was to say all of this was Hamas's fault and that Israel was 100% justified in retaliating in any way they saw fit. And it wasn't just the Bush administration; Democratic leaders put out nearly identical talking points.

So, what does this lead to? More bombings from Israel and a further escalation of the circle of violence. We are not doing Israel any favors by encouraging their most hawkish instincts. Violence begets violence. They will never have peace of mind as long as these seemingly endless cycles of violence continue.

Of course, Hamas and Israel are also responsible for their own actions. It would be absurd to claim otherwise. But we can give them the right incentives and disincentives or the wrong ones. We can either push them toward reconciliation and settlement or we can push them toward more violence, war and mayhem. We have done the latter, for which we must take responsibility.

No doubt the next time a Muslim fanatic attacks American interests, we will say, "Why do they hate us?" The answer is very clear. We have pushed them toward it. They are ultimately responsible for their actions. But we must also be responsible for our own.

Young Turks on You Tube

Take a Poll on This Issue (Who is Most Responsible for the Violence) on AOL Right Now

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/19481



You love America???

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Anyone believe that statement???

Maybe if you really loved it you wouldn't spend every minute of your life trying to find articles for reasons to hate it.

Fanta46's photo
Thu 01/01/09 09:49 PM
Edited by Fanta46 on Thu 01/01/09 09:53 PM
Most all the problems in today's hot spots can be traced back to the British Empire building days, and their redrawing of borders without regard to natural tribal boundaries.
We inherited them by default. After WWI and again after WWII, England was severely weakened and forced to withdraw from their colonial Empire. India, Pakistan (was Bangladesh), Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Palestine (and the newly formed state of Israel), Egypt, and almost the entire African continent!
We had two choices at the time. 1) Inherit the problems created by England. Or 2) Allow the new Communist Soviet Regime to expand into the areas left by a withdrawing and weakened England.
Of course we chose the wiser f the two options and maintained security over our beloved oil supplies lest we be obligated to the Russians.
The problems we made were the same as the British. We protected the oil but refused to give equal consideration to the people who had a culture we could not understand or in our better than thou attitudes refused to try and understand.
Instead of trying to understand the people of the regions and work to correct some of the border problems and wrongs done by the British we simply operated on the status quo.
Instead of making friends we alienated the people of the region against us. For more than 50 years, and then to add insult to injury along came GWB and the ignorant Administration he assembled.

Learn History beyond the last 10 or 20 years!

Thomas3474's photo
Thu 01/01/09 09:59 PM
Any country that wants to bomb a bunch of terrorist back to the stone age shouldn't be getting any criticism.They were getting hit with a average of 100 rockets a day.I get tired of hearing about how Israel in the bad guy here when Israel's intent is not to murder civilians but military targets.Hamas in their sick twisted minds hides rockets in populated neighborhoods right in the basements of peoples homes and mosques.Who is to blame for this?Hamas needs to be destroyed from the face of the earth.Anyone who disagrees with that statement is no better than they are.

Fanta46's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:08 PM
Edited by Fanta46 on Thu 01/01/09 10:09 PM

Any country that wants to bomb a bunch of terrorist back to the stone age shouldn't be getting any criticism.They were getting hit with a average of 100 rockets a day.I get tired of hearing about how Israel in the bad guy here when Israel's intent is not to murder civilians but military targets.Hamas in their sick twisted minds hides rockets in populated neighborhoods right in the basements of peoples homes and mosques.Who is to blame for this?Hamas needs to be destroyed from the face of the earth.Anyone who disagrees with that statement is no better than they are.


Learn History beyond the last 10 or 20 years!
The Gaza strip is the most populated area in the world. Israel has forced all the Palestinians into 146 sq miles and locked them in. Now they bomb them!
That would be like me locking you and your family into your house and then shooting law rockets only at your bedroom!
Oh well if your kids get killed. I was only shooting at you!
Can yo read Thomas?
I suspect you can since you seem able to type!
Go back and read the articles I posted with links. I understand it might take you more than a few min, but I have faith that you can do it! Heck you may even understand 10% of it!
Learn from facts not the mouth of your hero Bush.
He lies to you!!!

nogames39's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:08 PM

Hamas needs to be destroyed from the face of the earth.Anyone who disagrees with that statement is no better than they are.


That would certainly quail the dissent..

Fanta46's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:12 PM
Edited by Fanta46 on Thu 01/01/09 10:13 PM


Any country that wants to bomb a bunch of terrorist back to the stone age shouldn't be getting any criticism.They were getting hit with a average of 100 rockets a day.I get tired of hearing about how Israel in the bad guy here when Israel's intent is not to murder civilians but military targets.Hamas in their sick twisted minds hides rockets in populated neighborhoods right in the basements of peoples homes and mosques.Who is to blame for this?Hamas needs to be destroyed from the face of the earth.Anyone who disagrees with that statement is no better than they are.


Learn History beyond the last 10 or 20 years!
The Gaza strip is the most populated area in the world. Israel has forced all the Palestinians into 146 sq miles and locked them in. Now they bomb them!
That would be like me locking you and your family into your house and then shooting law rockets only at your bedroom!
Oh well if your kids get killed. I was only shooting at you!
Can yo read Thomas?
I suspect you can since you seem able to type!
Go back and read the articles I posted with links. I understand it might take you more than a few min, but I have faith that you can do it! Heck you may even understand 10% of it!
Learn from facts not the mouth of your hero Bush.
He lies to you!!!

If you still want to kill them all Thomas at least let them out of the cage! Then at least their families can escape to safety!

Thomas3474's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:16 PM
I understand perfectly clear.Who voted the Hamas into power?Was it not the will of the people.The people all want Israel destroyed.Those innocent civilians seems to wonder over to Israel on a daily basis to blow up themselves up killing as many Israel's as possible.And you are telling me I am supposed to feel sorry for these people?Maybe I could feel some pity if the people actually stood up,spoke up against Hamas,and either killed members of Hamas or locked them up in a jail somewhere.They are all in this together.They voted for terrorist,they wanted the violence,they can die next to the terrorist.

Fanta46's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:22 PM

I understand perfectly clear.Who voted the Hamas into power?Was it not the will of the people.The people all want Israel destroyed.Those innocent civilians seems to wonder over to Israel on a daily basis to blow up themselves up killing as many Israel's as possible.And you are telling me I am supposed to feel sorry for these people?Maybe I could feel some pity if the people actually stood up,spoke up against Hamas,and either killed members of Hamas or locked them up in a jail somewhere.They are all in this together.They voted for terrorist,they wanted the violence,they can die next to the terrorist.


Israel is an illegal state. Made possible by the Zionist movement.
For centuries the area was Palestine!
Israel didnt even exist except in stories within the bible!
Like I said learn history!


Zi·on·ism (zīə-nĭz′əm)
n.
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

Palestine was under British rule at the time!

Thomas3474's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:28 PM
Fanta stop saying I need to do something.I could care less.We are debating,act your age.I know how Anti-Americian liberals like to put the finger of blame on anything and everything except the bad guy.Isreal was made by the United nations.The United nations is made up from all the important nations of the world.If they made I could care less what everyone else says about it.

You realize your are defending terrorist.People who defend terrorist usually gets noticed by the FBI.

Fanta46's photo
Thu 01/01/09 10:40 PM
All the early leaders of Israel were clasified terrorist by both the British, whos soldiers and politicians they killed, and most of the rest of the world!
Your Bush blinders are still on tight and I dont care to play school teacher.
Read a little. Google the history for yourself and stay away from the one-sided Israeli web sites!

nogames39's photo
Fri 01/02/09 12:36 AM
Not a fan of Bush, but do you really think Obama is any different?


Fanta46's photo
Fri 01/02/09 12:41 AM
I take a man at his word until he gives me a reason not to!

nogames39's photo
Fri 01/02/09 12:46 AM
Don't worry, it won't be long. That's what I used to think of Bush...bigsmile

They just don't give a fling, my friend.

As for the promises, every president that is looking for a second term, has to do exactly opposite to the word he had given.

This is because his base, those who believed in him, will not generally be able to turn around and admit that their leader lied to them. But the president still needs to win the opposition. So, that is what he does.

You have to exclude 911 from this and the wars. We're talking small stuff. The big game is the same, all of them against all of us.


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