fanta everything you said is pretty much common knowledge, except you
thru me with pakistan.

komami in iran, we supplied sadam with the weapons to fight iran, yep

british was the largest empire in the world during the time your talking
about so yeah they drew out the maps.



any who, keep up the cospiracies, i think they're on to you, just
kidding.



doc

No Doc, Im not a conspiracy follower..

Damascus, Syria is the oldest continuously occupied city in the World.
In 1940, Israel what was Britsh controlled Palestine had few if any Jews
living there, and then Zionism started and accelerated after WWII. In
1947 The pop was 30 % jews and 70% muslim. The UN had planned on giving
54% if the land to Israel and the rest to become Palestine. Before they
could Israel declared Independence. Expanded since then to 6 times the
size since due to gains in wars, aided by mostly the United States of
America...

Did you know that what is now Iraq was once the garden of eden?

go back into history, about jeurselem, orginally occupied by who?, until
when?, and then? the common enemy around was either the egyptians or the
romans, the people in the area pretty much got along until when, christ
and mohamed. some people will tell you that the thirteen tribes is what
caused all the riff, when abraham and sara couldnt have kids and she
told him to bang one of the servants, which happened to be an arab,
sh*ts been down hill for the jew since then. but that was well before
mohhamed and christ. then theres the whole who beget who thing going on
there, gets kinda confused, and im sure im not helping the matter.

muslims attacked and overran the town when, 1099ad was it? sometimes
around then not real sure...

damascus im not so sure about, pretty bold statement, then theres all
kinds of things to consider, like is it the birth place of man kinda
crap, and no offense but you dont seem to be the religion type, maybe
your are but i cant tell.

iraq the garden of eden, yeah thats what they say, sure looked like it
had seen better days i can tell you that. i have difficuly believing man
started there, dont ask why it just didnt seem like it to me is all. no
cave man stuff there you know.

anyway its been fun guys but docs got an early day tommorrow so got to
run, if im all jacked up on this, send me an email i'd love to get the
knowedge or at least reference to it.

thanks


doc

Saddam drained those swamps and killed an ecosystem as well as a
culture.

I was merely mentioning the boundries listed in the book of christ.

Those boundries are in that area.

Course didn't god supposedly bury it all when he forced Adam to take his
family beyond its borders.

No Geography. damascus is.. really. What I was getting at is the
palestianians had it thrust upon them by western powers, and thats why
they fight. Im not putting religion in it. What if someone came here and
said we must let the Native Americans hace 55% of our country, and give
Mexico back the S,west..
Dont ya think it would cause problems???

yes I agree, Babaloyn....

Exactly. They're fighting a powerful enemy that's cutting them apart
piece by piece. And retaliating the best they can.


Oh, and as to America- where were you when they taught the colonial
expansionism part of our history? Free speech- don't make me laugh.
Freedom of religion- salem witch trials come to mind? Racism- we're
still fighting that old ghost.


Culturally speaking (with "liberal" being, erroneously, assumed as
progress), Iran is between 50 and 100 years behind us. And advancing
rapidly. They're a rather violent kid brother right now- if we promote
the right growth angle. Treat them as *gasp* equals- we'll have
something. And them getting the Bomb is the surest way to make the feel
like out equals. So it'll work out quite nicely if done with any
modicrum of respect.

That might not be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my
life, but it certainly is close.

I am glad to see some others have joined in this discussion to try to
lent a little sanity to the topic. I'm pretty much done with it now.

Insanity is, by definition- "performing the exact same actions over and
over again, while expecting different results".

America's foreign policy is, literally, insanity.

What I'm posing could work- in fact, historically, has worked. Just hop
back a few hundred years to the big expansionistic periods in europe.
Hop over to the oriental feudal periods. Look at any point in history
that had two powerful empires existing at the same time. Rome never
tried to conquer Egypt- despite its obsession with taking over every
known tract of land and all the riches of the world- ever wonder why?

The difference is, of course, the degree of power our weapons could
bring out. Which only makes peace that much more desirable. No one wants
to play war when the result reduces your entire country to radiated
glass. Even if you win, you lose. Which makes peaceful coexistence all
the more desirable. Plus there's always the national pride that comes
from stepping into the big leagues. If we give Iran something important
to lose, they'll do their best to keep it.

I agree with you poet, what we are and have been doing isnt working.
Intimidation does not bring respect with it. You might make someone
scared of you, but secretly they will always be trying to get even.
IE..suicide bombers, flying planes into buildings etc, what ever..... We
need to try something else, thats for sure. What did you have in mind?
Im interested.

Well, for one thing- Iran's getting the bomb. Nothing short of nuking
them right now will change that.

What we do is a full 180 turn. We get Iran involved. Encourage them to
start helping the industrialization/advancement of their own, and the
surrounding, nations. In echange, we start lifting sanctions (they don't
mean anything anyways).

Iran gets heavily involved in trade with surrounding nations. Makes it
extremely unprofitable to let someone blow themselves up next to your
multi-million dollar trade goods. Buisiness grows in Iran and
surrounding areas.

Iran, of course, ends up with the nuke- but with our *blessings*
instead of our meaningless and useless complaints. Of course, our
blessings are meaningless and useless, too- but at least they look good.


An industrialized Iran sees that the biggest economic gain is to be had
playing with America and Japan. So they engage trade with us- and
everyone makes money. Iran (and the surrounding nations) get wealthier.
And wealthy people don't like the idea of marching their children off to
war. Because they actually have HOPE FOR THE FUTURE. And that's the one
thing we need to give to the middle east. People who expect their lives
can mean something are far, far less likely to throw them away like
that.


Of course, it'd take decades to make all these changes take hold. But
they will take hold. It did in Europe- usually they call it the
Renaissance. And the Dark Ages was far uglier than the Middle East. It
took a thousand years for it to start. But once it started, it only took
decades to replace civilization. And Asia had her own version. So did
Africa.... unfortunately, they collapsed again.


The Middle East used to be the bastion of civilization. Their SLAVES
were better educated and cared for than the greatest western scholars of
the time. Once they start rebuilding- they'll remember that. And they'll
chase that old memory with enough passion to actually make it happen. At
first, simply to prove themselves better than us. But eventually- for
the simple sake of the love of learning itself.

Of course. I'm at a loss on how to save Israel in this mess. Nothing
short of an act of God is going to save that country. Whether or not we
make friends with Iran. Because if it comes down to war- Jerusalum in
the first place in the world where the Islamic world is going to drop
the bomb.

And if we make friends with Iran.... heh. We might get lucky. We
probably won't.

If you give Iran an inch they will want a mile. Better to look towards
regime change in Iran before giving one ounce of trust. After some
regime change the people there stand a chance or growing a lasting
peace. With the history of hatred they have for one another in the
region they also have a good chance of developing absolute chaos. My
guess is that you'll see some more chaos before anybody straightens
things out. Take away their money, and war machine, then they might be a
little easier to get along with. After that help them build from the
ground up, but without instantly giving them the kind of money needed to
foster war in all regions they choose.

And how do you propose a "regime change" without starting World War
Three? Because unless we have a magical invisible teleporting cybernetic
supersoldier- there really isn't one.


The best move would simply be to ride it out. Everyone dies,
eventually.

Philosopher they took several thousands of miles in 79, and havent
bothered us since. Until we started knocking at their backdoor again,
and calling them one of the three evils..
We made a recent regime change in Iraq. what violence and hatred toward
us has that stopped?

The Americans put half if not more of the dictaters in power.

Actually, no. We may have 10% of the current dictators to answer for.
But we do have the most brutal of them.

you think that a bomb in the holy city is what the fundamentalist
fanatics of islam want to do, why do you think they're fighting for?

there are about as many muslims in jeruselem, it is their holy city as
well.