See- that, I'd get behind happily. Complete nuclear disarmament. Of
course, it'd never happen. Pandora's thermonuclear box has been opened-
and nothing short of an inconcievably more powerful force could close it
again. In other words- there will be nukes until someone invents a
weapon that could blow up a planet (or maybe make a sun go nova).

As I said earlier, I did not read the treaty with Panama, and I am not
going to claim to be right about anything it says, so lets just leave
that alone. I don't particularly have an issue with Panama owning the
canal. Once again, I am trying to make the point that we need a foreign
policy that is coherent and includes some action on the the behalf of
the United States in other regions of the world.

I do not believe the CIA was always right in the choices they have made
or the activities they have participated in. I do think that the United
States does have to take some steps to watch out for its interests
though, and that in many ways the interests of the United States are
shared by others, such as open trade and commerce with other countries,
protection of copyright and patent rights and the right to peaceful
existence.

Countries who work and play well with others do not have problems with
the United States.

I agree that nuclear weapons should be eliminated, but I do not think
the United States should do so alone. I believe that for now there is
absolutely no way to assure that all other nuclear weapons in the world
would be destroyed at the same time as those in the United States.

The world would be better off without weapons of mass destruction.
Getting there will be a long and complicated process. I don't expect
this to happen very soon.

You seem to be suggesting that the United States is threatening Iran
with nuclear weapons, "pointing it at them". The implication is that
the United States is pointing nukes at the whole world. That is a little
like saying that the police here are pointing guns at everyone. It is
just not so. If you pull a gun on the police, they will probably shoot
you if they get the chance. If you mind your own business and live your
life without trying to push others around you have relatively little to
fear, except for the occasional cop going postal. Iran certainly is not
minding its own business and letting others live their lives without
interference. Instead it is interfering in others rights and lives, and
pointing a gun at the cop and looking for bigger guns. If you approve,
that's fine for you.

Your equanimity in the face of international issues is remarkable. Is
there any limit Iran or other countries might go that would push you to
the other side of the fence, or is your tolerance limitless?

As for North Korea, I watched that with interest over a long period. I'm
surprised at the lack of activity on the part of the United States about
that, but the point should be made that North Korea is a small and poor
country. Like a kernel of popcorn, while small, it can still make a lot
of noise. It remains a thunderstorm in a thimble. Iran on the other hand
controls large resources, monopolizes them for the use and wealth of a
minority of despots, and seeks to protect its rights to do so and to
expand its wealth and power with its own form of hegemony.

I have a limit to what I will accept.

I do not aggress against others unless they aggress against me.

As far as 'pointing a gun' again my perspective is somewhat different
from yours. We (our government) is not pointing our nuclear weapons but
we are pointing our will at another independent country and DEMANDING
they comply with our will.

Sorta like holding a rifle and telling someone to do what I say or face
the bullit in the chamber.

WE are not the policeman of the earth. We are one nation amoung many.
We need to act like that. I firmly believe that each nation should only
have a military force large enough to protect its own borders.

Once pandoras nuclear box was opened the results should have been
realized.

Iran is not the first to research this capability nor will it be the
last. Anything man can build another can learn to build also.

It is time to knock off the squabbling about 'do they have the right'
and realize it is time to do two things real quick.

1. develope a defensive weapon that makes a nuclear chain reaction non
functional. (some type of nuclear suppressor).

2. and more important... Bring the world to a state of peace without
force. (Force begats force. peace begats peace).

don't get me wrong. If any country invades the United States of America
I will be one of the first to meet them with a weapon in my hand and
blood in my eye.

I placed my sword back into the stone many years ago as I would prefere
to sow peace not death.

You don't understand much about Iran, do you?

Iran is FAR from a despotism. They actually have freedom of press,
there. Free speech, with few exceptions. Open, vocal,
in-the-streets-holding-protests ability to criticize their government.
They have more freedom than americans did during the uglier parts of
WW1, WW2, and the Cold War (especially during Vietnam, which was part of
said cold war).

Other than their strict adherence to the Koran as a part of their
constitution- they're one of the most liberalized governments in the
world that aren't part of the westernized culture (aka, Europe, North
America, and Japan). And if they were to expand with any degree of
success, they'd become even more liberalized. They're the transition
ground between our world and the more brutal part of the islamic world.
If we could embrace them- not necessarily as friends, or even allies-
but at least with a mutual respect.... we could finally turn back the
tides of discent against us.

I don't know where you've been. But most of the world HATES us now. An
american can no longer safely travel in europe- or, at least, can't
safely travel if they show any patriotic memorabelia. We can no longer
trust our "allies" to help us. France was once our staunchest friend and
supporter. Spain and the Netherlands used to love us. Now, if we're
lucky, we've got the support of Great Britain and Canada. Japan is nice
to us- but they have no choice- they've got no standing military, and
rely on stations of our troops in case of any threat (one of those WW2
surrender conditions).

Plenty of nations that play quite nicely with the rest of the world
bristle when we swing by. Third-world nations will accept our help out
of desperation. But once they don't absolutely need us, they want us
gone. And given our track record over the last century- I can't say I
blame them.

What america needs. It certainly doesn't want, but really does *NEED*-
is an equal or two. Someone to stand on the same plateu as us.
Competition is a good thing- we're getting fat and lazy in our power and
position. Like the spoiled rich kid who nobody likes, but puts up with
because he has all the coolest toys.

Worst case scenario, it'd remind other nations that we could be far
more horrible than the arrogance we exhude like it's going out of style.

Panama Canal
Read the details for yourself,



In 1903, the Republic of Panama and the United States signed the
original Panama Canal Treaty, which allowed the United States to build
and operate a canal connecting the Pacific Ocean with the Caribbean Sea
through the Isthmus of Panama. The Treaty granted the United States the
use, occupation, and control of a Canal Zone, approximately 10 miles
wide, in which the United States possessed full sovereign rights. In
return, the United States guaranteed the independence of Panama and paid
the government of Panama $10 million, as well as an annuity of $250,000,
which each year increased at a rate far beyond that of inflation.

On September 7, 1977, a new Panama Canal Treaty was signed by
President Torrijos of Panama and President Carter of the United States
that transferred full control of the Canal to Panama on December 31,
1999. Under this Treaty, the Panama Canal Company, the Canal Zone, and
its government were disenfranchised on October 1, 1979, and replaced by
the Panama Canal Commission that operated the Canal during the 20-year
transition period that began with the Treaty. The Panama Canal
Commission has now been replaced by a new Panamanian entity, the Panama
Canal Authority. The treaty guarantees permanent neutrality of the
Canal. Control over U.S. military facilities in the former Panama Canal
Zone has reverted to Panamanian authority. The U.S. Southern Command and
U.S. Army South troops moved out of Panama at the end of 1999.

For further reading on the matter see Robert Bunn's book
The Panama Canal Treaty: Its Illegality and Consequential Impacts

This book addresses from a governmental perspective the legality of the
1977 Panama Canal Treaty, and related political, economic, and national
interest aspects resulting from the transfer of control of the Panama
Canal from the United States to Panama under the Treaty. Under the
Treaty, the United States turned over to Panama, entirely gratis, $3.4
billion in lands and properties, including strategic military bases.

The study concludes that the Panama Canal Treaty is illegal and
unenforceable. Under international law, the terms of a treaty must be
mutually agreed to by all signatories, but the United States and Panama
never agreed to the same Treaty language. The Treaty language as
approved by the United States Senate was never agreed to by Panama, and
the Treaty has never been signed by the President of Panama, as required
by the Constitution of Panama. Also, the Canal was "property" of the
United States, but its transfer was not approved by the House of
Representatives, as provided for by Article IV of the United States
Constitution. Counterarguments to these conclusions are presented.

The Canal is wrapped inextricably with the free world and global
strategy, and the United States’ ability to utilize the Canal for
uninterrupted commerce is essential to its commercial and financial
wellbeing. The Canal has been critical to the United States military and
commerce in the past, and it will continue to be so. Narco-terrorists
are a potential threat to Panama and the Canal. Entire cities within
Colombia, which borders Panama, are controlled by drug cartels and
Colombia is fighting for its very existence. The Narco-terrorists are
infectious and expansionistic and their threat of taking control of the
Canal is genuine, and their hostile intentions against democracy and
governmental functions are unambiguous.

Adventure,
I have checked my facts and you are wrong about the treaty for the
Panama Canal in 1903.

You might want to review some other documents concerning the matter.
I've included enough here already, but this is a hotbed issue for many
people. For me, I just live with it.

Here are the actual words of the treaty:

ARTICLE II

The Republic of Panama grants to the United States in perpetuity the
use, occupation and control of a zone of land and land under water for
the construction maintenance, operation, sanitation and protection of
said Canal of the width of ten miles extending to the distance of five
miles on each side of the center line of the route of the Canal to be
constructed; the said zone beginning in the Caribbean Sea three marine
miles from mean low water mark and extending to and across the Isthmus
of Panama into the Pacific ocean to a distance of three marine miles
from mean low water mark with the proviso that the cities of Panama and
Colon and the harbors adjacent to said cities, which are included within
the boundaries of the zone above described, shall not be included within
this grant. The Republic of Panama further grants to the United States
in perpetuity the use, occupation and control of any other lands and
waters outside of the zone above described which may be necessary and
convenient for the construction, maintenance, operation, sanitation and
protection of the said Canal or of any auxiliary canals or other works
necessary and convenient for the construction, maintenance, operation,
sanitation and protection of the said enterprise.

The Republic of Panama further grants in like manner to the United
States in perpetuity all islands within the limits of the zone above
described and in addition thereto the group of small islands in the Bay
of Panama, named, Perico, Naos. Culebra and Flamenco.

It goes on and on with the grants by Panama in perpetuity.

Here is a link to the entire treaty of 1903
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/panama/pan001.htm


Poet,
I had a talk with the Iranian worker today about the specific issues you
raised about freedoms in Iran and he assures me that you are incorrect.
He makes the point that you have freedom so long as you know and have
the support of specific government officials, but only then. Further
there are people in control all over the place. small towns and large
cities all playing the same freedom game. Basically it is like this,
they take whatever they want from you when they want it. You give
because it is better than prison or death.

Funny. I knew several Iranian college students over in the US on visas.
Appearantly camera phones are very popular over there. Because they and
their homeland families like to send photos of their various adventures
whilst apart.

I mean, I could see where the poor are rather disenfranchised. But the
middle class is generally happy. The *majority* are happy. And no one's
questioning the existence of corruption. But look at america's history
and tell me we have any room to criticize.

My friend's family is well off in Iran, except for the confiscation of
property by the Khomeini regime and the mullahs. He had to leave the
country or be conscripted into government programs that he didn't want
to participate in. Other members of his family have had to leave the
country as well.

During the war with Iraq the gov't sent people to the front line against
Iraq after seizing them with an unfair and unreasonable draft. Many of
the people sent to the front were not even given weapons. Basically they
were taken from their towns and made into cannon fodder without weapons
at all.

Even now there is a program to encourage people to go to their deaths in
big running surges of unarmed people to go against armies.

They train insurgents for Iraq, both sides Shiite and Sunni. They train
Hezbollah in Iran and Lebanon for assault against Israel. My friend
makes the point about who is who's enemy, the jews or the moslems by
asking "Can you count how many Jews are killed by Moslems vs how many
Moslems are killed by Jews?".

They ship missiles IEDs and other weapons about the middle east for
insurgencies.

If you still feel like this sort of behavior puts them on equal moral
ground with the United States I think we are through discussing the
matter.

I have friends who, like Carter, see the whole Palestine problem as
being the fault of Israel. 100%. They are my friends and I can respect
their opinion, but ordinarily I do not discuss politics with them. I do
not feel like it is my responsibility to change their opinions or
politics. Nor are they likely to change mine. So as far as I'm concerned
we can leave it right there.

They use harsh methods against an enemy they cannot beat ANY OTHER WAY.
If a much more powerful force did the same thing against the USA- I'd be
using the same basic tactics. If I had the munitions, I'd use them. If
not, then "cannon fodder" it is. We, in fact, *DID* do the cannon fodder
in WW2, and in the Civil War. And in the Revolutionary War.


Iran's battle with us isn't over something as pretty as political
ideology. It's a matter of survival. They see our lifestyle and
*despise* us for it. As well they probably should- we've taken liberal
too far, this country. Would you not fight back if a fascist government
tried to surpress us- and if they had the political, economic and
military might to beat us hands down, would you not use more brutal
tactics than an easier war might require?

That's why Iran needs the bomb- because it will make them safe. It will
no longer be about survival. But it's a moot point- they *WILL* have the
bomb soon enough. Then you'll see. As long as America doesn't get really
stupid and try to fight Iran anyways.

Here are some current events in Iran for you.

Teachers Arrested for Peaceful Assembly and Association

The Iranian government should immediately release two women’s rights
activists arrested on April 1 and end its harassment and persecution of
human rights defenders, Human Rights Watch said today.

On March 23, 2007 Iranian forces detained 15 British sailors and marines
in the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab waterway

The Iranian government should immediately release the 26 prominent
women's rights activists arrested on March 4, and stop its prosecution
and persecution of all women’s rights advocates

The Iranian government should immediately release Somaye Bayanat, wife
of the well-known political prisoner Ahmad Batebi, and investigate the
manner in which she was snatched from the streets

The Iranian Judiciary should immediately halt all executions of people
who have been sentenced to death in secret following unfair trials that
do not meet minimal international standards of justice

The Iranian government should immediately lift foreign travel bans used
to prevent human rights activists and journalists from attending
international forums

Human Rights Watch announced today that seven Iranians are among the 45
writers from 22 countries who are receiving the prestigious
Hellman/Hammett prize, an award that recognizes writers globally who
have been victims of political persecution.

The Iranian Judiciary should prosecute officials responsible for the
arbitrary detention and alleged torture of several bloggers in 2004,
instead of prosecuting the bloggers for expressing their opinions

Iran’s Judiciary should immediately halt the imminent execution of 10
Iranians of Arab origin and revoke the death sentence imposed on them,
Human Rights Watch said today. The death sentences were imposed
following secret trials that Human Rights Watch said could not be
considered to meet international standards.

This briefing paper documents how the government barred at least 12
students from university registration this past year, despite the fact
that graduate programs had accepted them on the basis of successful
competitive entrance examinations. The briefing paper also documents the
cases of another 54 students who were allowed to register only after
agreeing to sign statements that they will refrain from peaceful
political activities.

Iran's Supreme Leader, Ali Khamene’i, should immediately order the
unconditional release of Ali Akbar Mousavi Khoini, a former member of
parliament and critic of Iranian detention practices

Despite Two Reprieves, Iran Leads the World in Juvenile Executions

Outlawed Opposition Member Put to Death
Hojat Zamani, a member of the opposition Mojadehin Khalq Organization
outlawed in Iran, was executed on February 7 at Karaj’s Gohardasht
prison


Iran: Top Ministers Implicated in Serious Abuses
Iran’s new Minister of Interior is implicated in grave human rights
violations over the past two decades, possibly including crimes against
humanity in connection with the massacre of thousands of political
prisoners

I could do this all day. Can you refute the human rights abuses?

I can't refute the claims. Nor do I intend to. Nor do I believe I have
to. My point is that America has done just as bad. Iran isn't the best
country in the world. But it's maturing- and it'll mature faster when it
no longer has to be so afraid of us. They could easily be our worst
enemies- but they could also, just as easily, be our best friends. We
just have to handle them correctly.

here is today's news on the progressive country of Iran with its modern
respect for human rights.

Iran's Women Descend Into Increasing Abuse
The mullahs' rule came down on women's rights, liberties, culture,
family and private lives like a huge avalanche. Executing thousands of
female opponents, which is unprecedented anywhere in the world. In a
recent demonstration by teachers asking for better and equal pay, some
10,000 demonstrators, mostly women, showed up.

Some 1,000 women teachers were arrested in one fell swoop by the
Suppression forces and transferred to various prisons.

The head of Islamic Iran's National Prisons Organization recently
admitted there were over 100 "independent" prisons around the country,
each run for their own use by various so-called security or intelligence
organizations.

BRUSSELS, Belgium — The U.S. will keep a close eye on Iran's involvement
in Afghanistan following reports that Taliban insurgents used
Iranian-made weapons against NATO forces, a senior U.S. official said
Wednesday.


Iran's leader a target at Ottawa Holocaust event

On News/Activism 04/16/2007 4:58:45 PM PDT ·
Iran's leader a target at Ottawa Holocaust event CTV.ca News Staff Apr.
15 2007 Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Sunday said the world must
stand up to terrorists and fanatics who advocate the destruction of
Israel, as he honoured those who lost their lives during the Holocaust

WASHINGTON — U.S. forces recently intercepted Iranian-made weapons
intended for Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, the Pentagon's top general
said Tuesday, suggesting wider Iranian war involvement in the region.


Iran 'is seeking N Korea's nuclear expertise'

The Telegraph ^ | 17 April 2007 | Con Coughlin
Iran and North Korea have appointed high-level delegations to deepen
co-operation between the two countries on nuclear weapons technology,
according to diplomatic sources in Beijing.

This kind of stuff is a daily occurrence. I'm wondering if you just
never see this kind of thing, or if you simply don't believe it, or if
you consider it all to be reasonable behavior, which helps you to form
the opinion that Iran is so progressive.

I think the Iranian people could be good friends to the U.S. but as a
realist I know that there is a segment of people there who never will
under any circumstances. Some will never be happy unless the last
American is dead. When you support their government you promote the
ability of them to realize these dastardly ambitions. The government
there will never be friends with the U.S. If you want the friendship of
the Iranian people get rid of their government for them, otherwise
forget it. Their government is educating their youth to fanatically hate
everyone here, even you who support them. It will get worse until they
are gone.

If you support the country of Iran in its manner of government ask
yourself this: If you were there would you help to imprison the teachers
and political activists for their activities, since arresting them is
the reasonable thing to do? Because your words indicate that you approve
of their government. Otherwise if you believe in the liberal attitude
and high level of tolerance by the government there, would you be
willing to go there and join the teacher's movement and the political
activists trying to make the country better?

I have the feeling that you simply like to take the underdog's position,
support the opposition. Whatever. Reality is reality. This country is
pretty good. You might find a lifestyle you like better or think has
more integrity and honesty in Norway or Sweden, or perhaps Canada or
Australia, but your options are limited and you might be mistaken. Most
places in this earth are not nearly so pleasant. I would like to see the
others come up to our standards, rather than for us to be brought down
to theirs. Rather than being critical of the U.S. it might be better to
do something to make it better, like do your own part to show we have
morals and integrity. That most likely would not mean disingenuously
supporting opposing positions just for the shock value or to highlight
the problems with those who are looking for solutions.

poet , are you saying the whole live and let live thing?

this is sorta a hypocritical statement-

-but they could also, just as easily, be our best friends. We
just have to handle them correctly.-

handling people is what the US does. Arrogant as it may sound and as bad
as you want US to be, if we werent the center of free thought, filled
with ideas and invention, debate, what would the world have today?

Be like Iran? hell no thank you, middle class? you're kidding right?
the younger more liberal students in Iran, when united are "allowed" to
"protest", is it the freedom of the people, no. freedom of the press? as
long as you print what they tell you to. radio free iran is a radio
station out of california, they broadcast specifically iranians both
here and in iran, dont ask me how its done cause i dont know internet
maybe... google it. the normal class or the average everyday iranian,
had to make little satelite recievers put them on roofs out windows
where ever they can have easy access to pull them down, hell iraqi's
have satelite dishes, who's more free in that regard?

hoarding power... if you worked hard for something, and it took you a
long ass time to obtain it, then you were told to just hand it over,
would you? please send me your paycheck if you say yes. WTF in this
right to have what you have world makes it our obligation to bring every
one in the world up to our standards, if they hate us for our life style
as you say, then screw them they dont get to eat from my plate. which
brings me to not being the military police, big brother, whatever you
want to call it. you cant have it both ways, doesnt make sense to try to
argue it like that. "we hate you give us stuff" yeah oookay.

a logical man, doesnt go into the woods to escape from society because
he doesnt agree. he tries to effect change, i believe we have done more
good in our short time as a country than any other in the history of
modern civilation.

oh that comment about french being our staunches supporter, only when
they need something, history says that, not me.


doc


AB- Im with you, but .. Im not, you'll never get rid of every weapon,
someone will always have the upper hand, its not a perfect world that we
live in, and I know you know that, but it would be nice someday to think
we actaully all got along.

panama canal? why is it important again?

What would you say if I told you that in 1958, women in Afghanistan had
the right to vote and go to school?

What would you say if I told you that there have been two wars between
the British and the tsarist Russians over control of Afghanistan>


What would you say, if I told you that the Russians and British at one
time had talked about dividing Iran into three parts?

What would you say if I told you that the British are responsible for
the drawing of modern borders in central Asia, and that they are now
nothing to what they originally were?

What would you say if I told you that the US instigated the war between
Iran and Iraq?

Have you ever heard of an East Pakistan?
Do you even know how Pakistan came to be?

did you know that jordan syria, lebanon, iraq and isreal were all
palastine?