If that where true satellites flying around the earth at vast speeds would not log time differently then we moving at slower speeds.

Spacetime, is a thing. We all move through the macro world and NEVER interact with the micro world we are macro beings.

What satellites are you talking about and how do they perceive time?

Atomic decay is how they do it now, its very accurate at consistently measuring very fine intervals.

Each moment is necessarily a time frame, which is a sort of fixed pattern of matter and space. Somehow those frames or spaces are fused together, creating a false sense that existence is changing and transforming, when change is actually observed only by whatever moves from one time frame to another.

The past and future exist now-always.

IndieBoarder158,

So do you agree then, that time without the perception, thought and memory (of an observer) would be unknown and that it does not exist apart from a conscious observer who perceives, thinks and hold memories?

It is good to see you in full spirit Voile...



Billy is a good guy though, so I felt the need to speak on his behalf...



We all search until we find... oneself.

Peace.

Time is an illusion, it's a mystery...

But no worries, guys. In time, we'll have this one figured out as well!

OK Last try!!!

... or I'll have to ask for research grants!!!

The different theories revisiting 'Newtonian Time' are pretty much collected under 'The theory of IMAGINARY TIME', paradoxically the real one !!!

Little metaphoric tale for starters:

So this is the old ‘clock time’ meets ‘timelessness’ or Imaginary time, at the OK CORRAL!!!

But it’s not as simple as the ‘Newtonian Clock Time Dimension’ gunfight draw out!

You see in the old Newtonian time dimension, ‘timelessness’ would be a seasoned gun fighting, prairies riding cowboy, with a mean look, and slow burning cig hanging out the corner of his sun dried lips.

Well, in the Einsteinian dimension, for most of us, our ‘timeliness’ dualist will seem like a ghost!!!

At first, this will give our John Wayne ‘clock time’ homeboy a false sense of security; no big threat with no opponent in front of you.
… until ‘clock time’ starts experiencing some violent intestinal reactions as though something was literally ‘shooting him up’ form the inside. A sort of Alien ripping out!!!

See!!!

You expect your dualist in front of you, ready to shoot him down.

Instead, IT comes from inside of you, reconfiguring and destroying every internal organ you’ve got,

YOU’RE DEAD IF YOU SHOOT, AND YOU’RE DEAD IF YOU DON’T !!!

The moral of this little invented metaphor is : ‘DON’T WEAR A GUN AROUND YOUR BELT IF IT’S ONLY TO END UP SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE GUT!!!’

Let's get down to business:

Timelessness or IMAGINARY TIME, paradoxically because it is real (verifiable), but doesn’t in any way shape or form agree with our current conception of time, which of course we ‘know’ to be real, even though it is unverifiable, therefore unreal.

Translation: let’s call the imaginary time (real), to grab your attention, because you hold as real, something that is entirely imaginary!!!

Focusing on the pillars of the time redimensioning would bring Albert Einstein, of course, who gave us, in his later years,

‘… the past, present, and future allexist
simultaneously…’.

Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now, the infamous ‘CLOCK TIME’.
He believed there is no true division between past and future. Most everyone knows that Einstein proved that time is relative, not absolute as Newton claimed.

The two most highly recognized physicists since Einstein, Richard Feynman and Stephen Hawking arrived at similar conclusions, and even made dramatic advances toward a timeless perspective of the universe, yet they too were unable to change the temporal mentality ingrained in the mainstream of physics and society. So I don't feel so bad! :)

Following Einstein was the colorful and brilliant IMO Richard Feynman. He’s the one who developed the most effective and explanatory interpretation of quantum mechanics known today as 'Sum over Histories'.

Just as Einstein's own Relativity Theory led Einstein to reject time, Feynman’s Sum over Histories theory gradually led him to describe time simply as a DIRECTION IN SPACE. Nothing else!

What I understand of Feynman’s theory is that it coins the probability of an event, as determined by summing together all the possible histories of that event.
SO, what does that mean? Well, taking a particle moving from point A to B, we have to imagine the particle traveling every possible path, curved paths, oscillating paths, squiggly paths, even backward in time and forward in time paths. When all summed up, the vast majority of all these directions add up to zero, and all that remains is the comparably few paths that abide by the laws and forces of nature. Not bad hey!!!

While I don't get the whole ‘Sum over Histories’ process, the essentisal point doens't get lost on me. I clearly get that the direction of our ordinary clock time is simply a path in space which is more probable than the more exotic directions time might have taken otherwise. Feynman's summing of all possible histories could very well be described as the first timeless description of a multitude of space-time worlds ALL EXISTING SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Now, Stephen Hawking. Got to like this amazing guy. He wrote in ...Cosmology From the Top Down; 'Some people make a great mystery of the multi universe, or the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum theory, but to me, these are just different expressions of the Feynman path integral.'
So, having a hard time with the mind reorganization of ‘time’??? Not alone!!!

Hawking and James Hartle developed the No Boundary Proposal, a theory which extends other theories such as Sum Over Histories. The no boundary’ proposal is a model of the early universe during the big bang which includes a second reference of time, called Imaginary Time which has no beginning or end. NO BEGINNING! NO END! NO CLOCK NEEDED!

In this mode of time we could in fact reach back and touch the original conditions of the early universe, because they still exist in a common time to all moments.
Isn’t that amazing just grappling with that thought.

Hawking also explains that what we think of as real time, a beginning at the Big Bang, some ten to twenty billion years ago, is incoinceivable in imaginary time where the UNIVERSE SIMPLY EXISTS. Got to love teh guy!!!

And back to my opening paradoxical metaphor. People often think from the tag 'imaginary' that this other mode of time isn’t real. Quite the contrary, clock time could be said to be imaginary compared to this ultimate mode of time, since in imaginary time, our clock time is totally indistinguishable from directions in space. GOT THAT!?!?!

From his most popular book A Brief History of Time, Hawking provides this word image to picture ‘imaginary time’ :
‘One can picture it in the following way. One can think of ordinary, real, time as a horizontal line. On the left, one has the past, and on the right, the future. But there's another kind of time in the vertical direction. This is called imaginary time, because it is not the kind of time we normally experience. But in a sense, it is just as real, as what we call real time.

Of course since the moments of past, present, and future all exist simultaneously in this other mode of time, the duration of each moment of time would seem to be ceaseless and eternal. The existence of the universe in imaginary time doesn’t have a past or a future, instead all times exist in one enormous moment of now-always. Isn’t that amazing, … NOW-ALWAYS!!!

Another jewel I want to share with you from Hawking:
"The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary."
The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE according to Hawking's 'Boundary Condition'.
According to Hawking the universe doesn’t have a boundary point where it suddenly begins existing. The first moment isn’t any different than the second in respect to existence. Both moments exist forever in imaginary time. It takes very little reasoning to figure out that if the universe exists in an unseen way without beginning or end, at right angles to regular time, then that reference to time is
simply more elementary and even more real than ordinary clock time.
The term imaginary applies more accurately to our time. Quoting Hawking again: 'This might suggest that the so-called imaginary time is really the real time, and that what we call real time is just a figment of our imaginations. In real time, the universe has a beginning and an end at singularities that form a boundary to spacetime and at which the laws of science break down. But in imaginary time, there are no singularities or boundaries. So maybe what we call imaginary time is really more basic, and what we call real is just an idea that we invent to help us describe what we think the universe is like.

If the universe exists in another time reference where conditions are permanent or static, suddenly it doesn't matter that we humans so convincingly observe a beginning to time, since the imaginary time reference applies regardless of our sense of where we are in time. The universe could be said to exist before our clock time began, and after our clock time ends.

The past and future exist now-always.

Obviously, imaginary time relates directly to existence. Imaginary time relates to the whole, to all that can be imagined. It also easily relates to numbers and ideas and the concepts we think with, which we already sense exist forever.

The only reason this can be so disorienting at first is because we have been trained to think inside a frame where we are splitting time into two separate dimensions.

We are splitting in two, the more common meaning of the word time.
Here, one time dimension is related purely to the existence of each moment, so it is the omni-directional time we exist within.
The other time dimension, the time we measure with clocks, is here limited to change phenomenon experienced by human beings, which is necessarily a construction of many moments in the first dimension bound together in some way that creates a second time dimension. Each moment is necessarily a time frame, which is a sort of fixed pattern of matter and space. Somehow those frames or spaces are fused together, creating a false sense that existence is changing and transforming, when change is actually observed only by whatever moves from one time frame to another.

That's it for me! I moving to the Imaginary time zone!!!

Anyone still there?!?!? Hello!?!?! Anyone?!?!?!

It exists as long as humans keep track of it.

human time only be created by "marking the mind" with only "memory" of all things "seen" having a beginning and an ending???

any human that can free itself then from it's own memory, be free of mortal time, and this be called nothing less than immortal???

indeed, it was once spoken, that man was inflicted with a limiter of sight, that seen not that the universe was himself, and seen not that the earth was as likened afer himself, and seen not that the cosmos was itself, and these such things cannot be seen, less the memory be passed away, that as a posion apple taint each thing seen unto surmizings, of immortal things solved with only mortal knowings, once called as knowledge???

IF INFINITE BE INFINITE, AND ALL CAME FROM INFINITE, LESS ONE SEE "HOW" ALL IS INFINITE, SEEING EACH THING THAT BEFALL ONE'S FEET, AND EACH THING THAT IS MET ON THE PATH, IS A MEANING, AND OF GREAT PURPSOE, one knows not what can be seen???

if wisdom be infinite knowing, then one that know wisdom be of infinite knowing, and infinite wisdom cannot just use it's mind, but rather it's awareness, which was FIRST, and without beginning and ending, which be the voice of reason and logic of the heart, when it is connected to itself bypassing the mind, just as einstein and newton???

did the knowings of these past prophets as all are, come from the surmizings of the mind, or by the QUESTIONS FROM THE MIND, ANSWERED BY INNER SELF???

the mind is the student, seeing each thing it observe, and the teacher be the heart, that SCRUTINIZE EACH DETAIL AS HAVING MEANING, UNTO NO IOTA OF DOUBT???

to see NOT a perfect FIRST, is to NOT KNOW HOW TO CREATE A PERFECT???

a child see data thru fear, just as a human son see it's human father first thru fear, being the fear causing to wish to please a idea, but when the two are OF THE SAME KNOWINGS, then there is equality, and only friends, that learned such friendship by speaking to each other in all ways of speech, NOT just good or bad speech, as ALL FIVE VOICES within each, using all voices of self of the teacher, and preacher, and prophet, and elder, and child, by allowing oneself TO HEAR FROM SELF IN ALL THESE SAME VOICES, making the five voices unto now as a sixth, the friend, the destiny of all human man, that carry onto the seventh, the EQUALITY OF ALL DATA, and this carry unto the eighth, the perpetual infinity, the creating of what once only the father could create, which only be as father meaning FIRST CONATINING THE KNOWING TO PASS ALONG TO ANOTHER???




peace