The bible is what it is.You don't get to heaven by good deeds.Believing in God is probably the easiest,simplest thing you can do.There is no middle ground for non believers.God does not want anyone to go to Hell but alot of people will.Even when they are in Hell he will give everyone a second chance and many will still not believe.It is not my job to decide who goes to Heaven or Hell nor should I feel bad if someone does who heard the world but refused to accept it.Through out my life I have talked to lots of people who were lost and had no religion and took them to church and they were saved because they met me.That gives me great joy and I know God was pleased by that.If I talk to someone and tell them the word and they refuse or worse insult and get physical with me then I do have no regrets if they are in Hell as it is God's judgement.Who am I to question Gods laws?Only a fool would think he is better morally than God.

Do you have any clue how silly this notion is Thomas?

If you are personally responible for having saved so much as one solitary person who would have gone to hell had it not been for you then you would be compassionately superior to God.

How so?

Because if that person ultimately deserves to go to heaven and they had been lost had you not helped to save them, then all that would mean is that God himself allows good people to be lost to hell.

That would be a totally untrustworthy God.

Any philosophy that places you in an important role at saving other people's souls is utterly absurd.

That would imply that God is truly inept and untrustworthy to save the people who genuinely deserve to be saved.

You can't possibly play a role in saving the soul of another person. That would deny God his own grace.

I'm not sure if "comfortable" is the right word. I better express it as disappointment. I have had discussions about God with every one of the friends I have and have had in my life - and not all of them have expressed a belief in God - others say they believe in God, but don't agree that Jesus is the "only path to the Father". They are smart enough, and understand the concept, and are perfectly capable of making decisions for themselves. Some ask questions of me, because they know I have read the bible, and study it - but I can't make their decisions for them, nor can I transfer my knowledge to them by osmosis. They ust get their answers for themselves.

Under no circumstance what_so_ever do I feel guilty for any decisions they make. Since I do not deny them my time to discuss any questions or even negative opinions on the matter of salvation, I see no reason why a christian should feel guilt over a non-christians decision to reject Jesus.



That makes no sense at all. If you had a friend who was in a burning building and he refused to leave - would you staythere with him because he chose to perish? If he decided to jump out of an airplane without a parachte because he believes he doesn't need it - would you rip off your parachute, or try to convince him he might be a tad off in his thinking? Isn't this analogous with someone refusing salvation? What would you do? Take off your parachute? Why.



But it would seem that either you doubt your own beliefs - in which case you are no different than they are - or you demonstrate to them the flaw in their thinking, or their percieved methodolgy. If they refuse to even comprehend - well, they've made their decision. But why are you letting them make your decision for you?



No they won't. Everyday there are signs and wonders going on all around you. Don't you merely explain them away? Try to give reason other than a creator's involvement for the very breath you take? Do you really think you have control over how your body even functions? Is that not a miraculous thing - or do you merely take that for granted? What kind of sign is going to meet your qualification before you believe?



Didn't influence everyone? Do you want to be influenced to believe in anything - or would you rather have to the choice to investigate for yourself and make decisions without influence? If God had someone walk into your fromt door and put a gun to your head to influence your decision - would that help you believe? He did it with Jesus - inspired men to document it - stated what he PROMISED he would do if man would call upon him - what more is needed? Why does it have to be some collosal event? Simplicity won't do? God is not going to "over-ride" the arrogance and pride of man in oder to influence them according to hs will rather than theirs. He leaves them the power to make choices for themselves. Once they do - he honors that choice. That does not mean that he doesn't make an effort to reach man with the truth. That is why Christians evangelise. But short of beating people over the head with the bible - what would you suggest be done?



Forgive me - but that's cr@p! You would be contradicting your very nature as a christian if you did that. If you were a christian and felt that strongly about your stubborn friends - you'd be more likely to hold a gun to their head to convince them of the truth, than you would be to abandon it over their arrogance.



What would you have done if they had refused to leave - or instead, decised to hold you captive with them to face certain death? Is that what they were doing? Did you drag them away kicking and screaming? If not - you are using the wrong analogy.



That is my opinion of how to respond to the specifics that you asked, and my sense of your use of analogies to get your point accross. However - as a christian, I view the entire issue you bring up quite differently. It all centers on the idea of who or what a person thinks God is - if they believe in him, and how they view their relationship with him. Then I ask if they know who Jesus was, and why He came here and did what he did. What was the purpose of it, and how does that relate to them. From there - a discussion usually proceeds. I don't think about the hypothetical scenario's you bring up, because I think it is impracticle to waste any energy on it. But you asked how a christian would think on these things, and so I gave you my response. Hope it helped.

But nothing changes here. The fact that you were able to save him because he didn't know how to swim, was due to the fact that he allowed you to. Had he faught you on the issue, and refused to allow you to rescue him, chances are very good that either you would have both dies - in which case you wouldn't be around to discuss salvation issues - else you'd re-evealuate this friendship and decide to save yourself and let him fend for himself. Tell me - what would you do? Sacrifice your life because he refused to save his?

Smiless;

Isn't it a better question to ask why man (men/women) is intent on his own self destruction?
why is it that men are evil? Is it because he choses to be so, or because God allows it? Where does the blame lie for this world being imperfect? Look around you - what was created on the planet by God that was intended for man's destruction? Arn't the destructive forces on this planet due to man's own devices? Aren't the uses of these things due to the choices of man? A mere examination of the creation should give you pause to think that everything that was put on this planet was for the benefit of man. It is only through the actions of man that these things bring about his own destruction.

That's the misguided notion right there.

To not believe something is not the same as rejecting it.

On the contrary you'd have to believe in it to reject it.

This is the whole Christian fallacy. The idea that people who can clearly see that the Bible is false are somehow 'rejecting' it.

When you see that something can't be true you aren't rejecting it. You're just recognizing that it can't be true.

The only way to actually reject Jesus would be to believe that he is God and then reject him as God.

Otherwise, you never bought into the premise and therefore you can't reject it.

Just because Christians aren't smart enough to comprehend this concept doesn't mean that God wouldn't be.

If God is supposedly all-wise and all-intelligent, then God would know how silly this Christian notion is.

An all-knowing all-wise God wouldn't be that stupid.

Jesus couldn't accuse someone who never believe in him of "rejecting" him. That would be absurd. Jesus would have to be as stupid as some mortal men to think like that.

Clearly if Jesus is all-intelligent he would fully understand that people who didn't believe in the biblical picture were in no way rejecting him.

I mean, most mortal atheists can even understand that simple concept.

When Christians claim that non-belief = rejection, I seriously have to question their ability to even think reasonably.

Clearly an all-wise God would know that non-belief does not equate to rejection.

That veiw is totally unreasonable.

But in your analogy - no christian would let you drown in the lake. To admit so - is to deny their christianity. It is why the hypothesis fails tp demonstrate a point.

You say you are not a christian, and it is your choice not to entertain discussion as to what salvation is and why you need it. No one's leaving you to drown - you have chosen not to accept their help. You almost demand it. Why would you not expect me to at least save myself?

I don't think anyone is in Hell at this time, there hasn't been a judgement. I do think that those that do not make it to Heaven after judgement will not be remembered to be grieved for as you mentioned. For Hell will be a "blotting out". when something is blotted out it is as if it never existed.
YOU cannot say wether or not your Grandfather is going to Heaven or Hell. Only God can do that and all will be judged fairly. You do not know what was in his heart and mind truly. All will know the truth before Judgement. For some reason, some will still not believe. But , the only one condemned to Death at this time is Satan and the fallen Angels from the age before Genesis.

Eljay you have probably heard this one before but I thought it would fit in good with this discussion....

A man was drowning in the ocean and he was praying to God "God please save me".A man came in a boat and said "Would you like to come on my boat"?And the man said "No God is going to save me".So the man on the boat left and a man in a helicopter flew over.The man said "Would you like me to pick you up"?The man said "No God is going to save me".Then a man in a hot air ballon said "Would you like me to throw you down a rope"?The man said "No God will save me".Then the man drowned,died,and went to heaven.He said to God "why didn't you save me"?God said I sent a boat,a helicopter,and a hot air ballon.What more did you want"?

The bible says that God works through his people.If you are praying for God to do things in your life you need to pay attention to the people who are talking to you.God is probably working in your life and you don't even notice it.

It's not a misguided notion. Had you ever been a christian you would understand what the premises are, and based on that - what the response should be. Smiless' questions are aimed towards christians, and his hypothesis are stated as analogous to salvation. These hypothesis hold no meaning if the premise of God, heaven, salvation, and the inspiration of scripture did not hold together as viable and acceptable. Outside of that - any definition of God that accepts an unbelief of Jesus does not fit the criteria for smiless' hypothesis.

I reject the notion of evolution as an origin of the species, and don't feel compeled at all to believe it. It is because I don't believe it that I reject it.

Your premise that one has to believe in Jesus to reject him is absurd.

Of course people go to Hell.Where else would they go?You think they are in Heaven waiting for a second judgement?The bible is very clear.The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.If you can back up scripture to your theory that there is a third place where no belivers go it would be good a good topic to debate.Your right I have no way to know what my grandfather thought in his lifetime.What I do know is what he told me shortly before his death and he told me he never believed in Jesus.I do belive it is in Revelations where anyone who is not in the book of life shall be cast into Hell.

I just now read a bit more of this thread.

And what Smiless wrote here, shows more LOVE ...

than the love of all of us christians here, put together.

When we have God'sLove in us,
we DONT even want to even THINK of leaving our loved ones behind!!!
We would cry out to God with ALL OUR HEARTS to save them!!!

THAT'S what Smiless was talking about.....and I AGREE WITH SMILESS!!!!!!!

So you believe that God would be unfair to allow some people to perish? Then wouldn't God be imperfect, if God is unfair? Is an imperfect God worthy of worship?

When we EARNESTLY..IN

BROKENESS AND WITH SINCERE LOVING

HEARTS ...CRY OUT FOR SOULS....

GOD HEARS!!!!!!

And Moves on the souls of our loved

oneS!!

God's Word says, " The effectual and

fervent prayers of God's people

availeth much!!"

God cannot allow someone who is unsaved into Heaven, it would go against God's nature. God would be unjust to allow some into heaven without being saved, while others perished. What of those who are friendless and have no family? They perish while those with big families get prayed into heaven. Praying for your family while they are still alive is a good thing, but there is no scripture that implies that one will be able to petition God for the salvation of your loved ones while you stand before God's throne of judgment.

I am talking about crying out for loved ones NOW,while still on this earth, not when we are before God!!

I would rather no further reply.

Instead,

I sincerely feel , all of us christians need to go spend Time with God.

And Smiless was talking about demanding that non-saved friends and family be allowed into heaven while we are all standing in judgment. Taking that into consideration, you should be able to understand my confusion when you said "And what Smiless wrote here, shows more LOVE ...than the love of all of us christians here, put together. "? I feel that demanding anything from God doesn't show love, it shows arrogance.

I saw Smiless heart, and know what he meant.

He meant, do christians cry out for their loves ones, in so many words.

We need to see MORE of the LOVE of GOD on this forum, among Christians.

Have a Blessed Day Now.

I am doing everything in my power to give all the gospel of Jesus Christ....That is all I can do and the rest is up to the person and God. I want everyone to go to Heaven and I don't want the people when Christ comes to stand there with their mouths open saying, "Oh dang she was right" When it is so simple to accept Christ into your life. Now wouldn't it be nice to think you could ever in a million years have the power to tell God either all go or I don't.....Just plain and simple doesn't work that way.

I can't have a guilty conscience for stubborn man. God doesn't want people who don't want to love him with all your heart, soul, and mind...so yes freewill and choice is all it's about. I had someone ask me yesterday if I believe if someone is saved are they always saved....example someone is saved and then say they go and kill 10 people are they still going to heaven. Now this is a hard one for me....but the answer is yes.....Because the Lord once you are saved is always a God of grace and forgiveness...Do I as Debbie think this is fair...nope...but it is what it is.

Now again it is stated that every man woman and child will know of the Lord and the Gospel before he comes back. Now of course small babes are the exception...but if everyone knows of him and still choose to live life as they see fit....well who honestly is to blame God or them?

I have myself traveled all over the world and shared the gospel of Jesus Christ with many....as I do here on mingle. I have seen God over and over here on mingle shown people miracles and who then accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. I myself through my walk with the Lord have been shown miracle after miracle. So this is where I speak from not because I was brought up this way but because I "SEARCHED" and God showed me. So I would not deny him or the path he has me on for nothing.

But this is the gig....if you don't open your heart and trust in him then miracles you will never see. God doesn't do anything on our terms not ever...It's always on God's terms and to glorify God not us. I don't and would not ever take the credit for someone here or in life who came to God....It is all God.....

I will give you another example a pretty amazing one. I had been talking to this gentleman on mingle for a while. He had been out of work for over 6 months and his life was really really bad. I started talking to him about the Lord and giving all the burdens of his life to Christ..I explained that is why he died for us. He wanted to see miracles....I won't get into what they are but miracles is what he saw. I then asked him at the worst of it to go get a bible..My teachers hate when I do this but every time it works...So he did and I was right their on im and asked him to let the Bible fall open and read both pages and tell me what it is. It was Pslam 69 now if you look it up....It was giving this gentleman exactly what he needed for his situation. It scared the heck out of him. He said, "Debbie what the hell did you do." I said honey this is God not me. And now he is a changed man...So miracles you ask and I see them daily...Why because I KNOW the power of the Lord and I know he wants all of us to come to Him.

All it takes is an open heart and knowing that we all are sinners no matter what

"Jesus, I want to know you. I want you to come into my life. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sin so that I could be fully accepted by you. Only you can give me the power to change and become the person you created me to be. Thank you for forgiving me and giving me eternal life with God. I give my life to you. Please do with it as you wish. Amen."

That's all it takes.

Even though Smiless doesn't fully

understand the gospel yet....

he has shown the greater love here!!!


God Bless him!!


May we all learn to love like that!!!

Have a Good day now Everyone.