Merry Christmas everyone!

Several things-

Man, absolutes are SO hard to pin down, huh? For whatever reason, it seems to be an inherent part of our nature to seek them out.

While I'm hoping Billy will help me out with this because it involves math as well as logic, everyone's thoughts are welcome.

In classical physics, do "if/then" statements (accepting that "if" implies "however") lead to "a universally desired outcome"- truth, and a "universally agreed upon outcome"- proof, at least until proved wrong? Would the most highly reduced formula used to achieve the outcome be "universally" considered "best?"

As a note, I think the word "better" often leads to confusion because it's SO easily used subjectively, although I think every one here has been using it the same way: "most effective." (Ha, Sky, this is where you may accuse me of semantic sophistry again if you wish. Sophistry is one of my favorite things! I've had a love affair going with the absurd lately; I think it's that damned Taoism.) :)

Oh crap, I just remembered Jack Nicholson's line in "A Few Good Men"- "You don't WANT the truth!" Shiii.....

Edit: And truth is no less subjective than "better." ...never mind :)

Well I dont think physics makes any claims in regards to desire.

And as such the intelligence and consciousness required for desire is what makes this a tricky topic.

Life favors survival so from a biological evolutionary stand point there is a universal desired outcome in regards to life and its continuance. Anything that favors survival would be better for life and the continuance of things that can have desires.

From a mathematical standpoint as soon as you decide on an outcome there will be a finite set of paths to most any outcome. However that requires life, and conscious beings to have desires t choose outcomes.

The life prerogative is survival, so I can think of at least one universal outcome, even if only from a unity perspective.

>>>Well I dont think physics makes any claims in regards to desire.And as such the intelligence and consciousness required for desire is what makes this a tricky topic.<<<

I agree. I guess I was just asking myself if truth is a "universal objective" for humans. Aside from the fact that some consider this to be the prime objective of human existence, it seems to me we have a need to continually determine what's "true" just to function in our daily lives. I agree that the desire for truth appears to be bound up in human "intelligence and consciousness". I'll point out though that some believe our very existence is a function of the universe's attempt to know its self. I don't really have any feelings about that either way, but it's fun to consider.

Yeah, I have to admit that "survival" is a universally desired outcome.

Upon further consideration, I feel I must qualify my statement about “survival” being a “universally desired outcome”. I would qualify it with – “within the framework of what we call the physical universe”.

To a non-physical (i.e. “spiritual”) entity – as I think of it – “survival” is truly a moot point. A non-physical entity is, by definition, not dependent upon time, so really, it would be impossible for such an entity to not survive. It could only be said that the spiritual entity is seeking to increase the survival of its body – or other of its “possessions”.

However, the logical evolution along that line would be to simply operate within the physical universe without the constraints of the physical body. To me this is the ultimate in spiritual evolution – to realize one’s potential as a spiritual entity and not feel compelled to use a physical body to accomplish one’s goals.

I can see no reason for a spiritual entity to desire or want to operate within a physical universe without the use of a physical body.

The reason a body is manifested by a spiritual being in the first place is so that it can be operational within the universe it chooses to visit, and in order to do that it must manifest a body that matches the frequency of that universe and can operate effectively within that universe.

The goal then, would not be to try to operate without the proper body for the universe, but to be fully aware and conscious of the fact that the body you inhabit is simply your vehicle of expression, and to be able to manipulate it or leave and return to it at will.

Full manipulation of a fully physical body would include such things as being able to teleport from one place to another at will, being able to be invisible at will, having the ability of remote viewing or knowing and seeing at a distance, astral travel, soul travel. and even inter dimensional travel and time travel taking your physical body with you by teleporting it and reassembling it after you arrived at your destination.

Now you might insist that these things are not possible, but if you subscribe to the idea of a holographic mind created or dream-like reality, then this is completely possible.

You seem to be saying that the spiritual entity cannot operate within the physical universe without a body. But that doesn’t make sense to me. If the entity can manifest a body, why can it not also manifest whatever other physical phenomena it desires?

The manifestation of the body is just a physical universe phenomena, no different from any other physical universe phenomena. If a body can be manifested at will, why not any other phenomena?

I see no reason to assume a restriction on what can be manifest.

If spiritual entities could consistently operate within a physical universe without physical bodies then you would probably see evidence of that. I see no evidence of it. In fact, even God himself, according to The Christians, had to incarnate into a physical body in order to come here and operate (be seen and heard.)

By "operate" I mean to be seen and heard and acknowledged by other physical beings. Etheric and astral bodies cannot be seen by average physical human beings. Even fourth dimensional (alien) beings must change their frequency in order to interact with the physical world.

In answer to your question, "if an entity can manifest a body why can't it manifest any other physical phenomena it desires."

Some spiritual entities might be able to do this, (although very few, if any, would be able to.)

But that is not the point. What I am saying is that in order to be seen and to interact with the physical world and the people they must either enter a body, incarnate into a body or manifest a body out of their mind.

The law in this reality is that they have to enter a body, either as a "walk-in" or by being born, or at one of the way stations where bodies are provided for travelers entering this reality. (Very few entities can simply manifest one out of their mind if any.)

The high priestess has spoken.

Ok, so you've agreed (I think) that it is possible for the spiritual entity to control things in the phyisical universe. (It controls the physical body, which is a physical universe object). What I'm saying is that that seems to me to be a very limited scope. It seems to me that the ability to control other physical universe objects would be a step up. And the top of that particular staircase would be the ability to control any physical object desired.

The lowly heretic has whispered.

on the other hand if you look bck into the growth of man.youll see that his free will and determination.have been guided for some time.
some would say it started in schools,others would say it started back in the roman times.the bottom line is it started when we as humans took to believing.that if a man or woman be praised as knowledgable,or wise.that we as a group,village town state,or even world should believe them.thus taking our freedom to rebuttle the facts.also media has had a magor effect on humans free will.opptical sujestion,we do not realise.that the falshing of seens is a hipnotic way to gain control.thats why in some states video lottery is so addicting.as well as other methods of flash play programing.we are selves have not lost our determination it has slowly been taken away.and i am affriad in time when we learn why it will be to late.as for our free will,we lost that because we listened to others and gave it away.if the world where to use our free will and express what we really think and feel.on a daily basses it would be the wild west again.and people would be lieing dead in the streets.evry where.the problem is this and this alone(in my oppion)we have put fear where free will and determination should be.


a friend to all george

survival is also something that should be feared when faced with extingtion.if we are trully living in the thought of survival evryday.then we are affriad of our own abilities to live.or make ends meat.LOL!but trully pride keeps us from excepting that we can and will do what ever it takes to stay full,clothed,and have shelter over our heads.to me thats just rolling with the punches.not survival.

but we do in a way i believe that would be called the power of sujestion.

I love heretics.


There is no spoon.

But you will still need a body, (which could be similar to a a holographic projection.)

I had a dream last night that explained to me why quantum entanglement is necessary for physical objects to exist and also necessary for spacetime. By quantum entanglement I mean to imply the condition where all things seem to be either connected or interacting with each other in some way.
The "connection" is the interaction and entanglement.

If it were not for this entanglement, everything would fly apart and there would be no space or time. (spacetime)

I'm not sure that makes any sense to the scientific types or even to me. It was a strange dream.

During an out of body experience, where I had no body whatsoever, (and yet I seemed to be seeing in any direction I looked) I did not sense having any arms or legs. I was simply eyes that could look in any direction.

I was suspended up in the sky above the cloud cover. I could see clouds below me. It was so 'real' that at first I thought I had projected my entire physical body up into the sky and I was afraid that if my thoughts wandered, I would fall to my death.

I thought to myself that would be quite a mystery for the people on earth when they found my body. How did I fall from the sky and how had I gotten up there? They might ask.

But then I realized I did not have my body with me. This was good news. So with no body, I was able to defy the law of gravity and suspend myself high in the sky. The moment I decided that I did not belong up there, I found myself on the ground in the grass outside of my house. I felt like those people in that movie "Honey I shrunk the kids" when they were lost in the back yard lawn trying to get home.

Then I decided I was not supposed to be there either and in a flash I was back in my body on the bed where I had been lying on my back trying to to astral projection.

That was not astral projection because I did not have my astral form with me up there. That was what Robert Monroe calls the third body, and Paul Twitchell called the soul body. It was really an awesome trip.

Wow hey did you look up that experiment? Awsome. The rebuttals were far from well stated and I know of no competing experiment contradicting the results. This in itself pretty much demonstaes that freewill is not an absolute, desicion is always based on previous experince social values and a multitute of other influences. Free will can nevr be an absolute. EVEn if you built a super computer which accounted all varaibles there seems to alwasy be an element of chance in our universe. These are just fun thought experiments, I think the conclusions are obvious and if youd like to read the full book its called the USER ILLUSION.

No i enjoy doing it. When people feel that thier imaginary commodity of self-esteem is at stake they try harder and may even learn something. Plus I like debates, I like provoking debates, its actually very effective. Dogmatic over-simplification, dont ever use that phase again. Read history, this is a common theme through history few will dispute. Also recognize satire when you see it. If you dont understand something, start by asking the source, be specifc if youd like a responce.

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