Thank you for the great link! Lots of food for thought!!

you provided a link to this page: What inquiry are you addressing? Brain vs. Mind? It doesn't seem so as the following cut and past from your link is not even considering the presence of "mind." In fact, is seems to completely ignore the idea of "mind."



At will? Who's will would that be? Are these people suggesting that the brain has a will?

The question I would ask of the above statement is if the brain stored the information, it should not have to "retrieve" it. It would just be there.

If the information has to be retrieved, who or what is doing the retrieving? Who or what is directing their attention to the information?

Lets say I memorized a phone number because I used it often. Is that a stored memory then? Or as I go about my daily life is that number constantly on my mind where I can't think about anything else? I doubt it. So I will agree that I "stored" it.

So did my brain store it? ~ No, I stored it in my brain.

Now the time comes when I need to use this phone number. Since it is stored (memorized) I am the one who decides to retrieve it.

Does my brain retrieve it? ~No, I retrieve it from my brain.

So who am I? ~I am certainly not my brain. I am simply using my brain to store information.

The brain does not "store" or "retrieve" anything of its own will, any more than a computer does. It just sits there and waits for the user to use it.

jb

The link appeared to address the subject of memory, which I believe provides a source of input to perception in both the waking and dream states of consciousness.

I believe that the brain generates the mind (synonymous with consciousness, awareness, self, or will). The brain interacts with external stimuli through the senses and the internal repository of experience called memory. Memory is the only source of input for dreams since, when the body is sleeping, the eyes are shut and are not receiving direct sensory input from the external environment.

I believe that the brain generates the self or will as a higher cognitive function, comprised of circuits located in the pre-frontal cortex. This higher cognitive function acts as an integrative processing system permitting the brain to "consciously" control the body (non-autonomically) and carry out deliberative behaviors that go beyond mere instinct.

Another set of circuits in the human brain have also evolved the ability to process language, thereby permitting reflection upon and explanation of behavior before, during and after its execution to achieve some purpose (normally aimed at seeking some type of positive gain or pleasure and/or avoiding negative loss or pain).

A sense of self emerges as the higher cognitive function of the brain integrates various other brain circuits or modules (language, memory, sensory input, motor control, etc.).

The more primitive autonomic functions of the body (such as breathing), as well as instinctual behaviors (such as the fight or flight response to sudden light or loud sound) do not require the use of the higher cognitive integrating center of the brain and are controlled by separate circuits.

The self is an emergent-phenomena generated by a variety of evolved brain circuits and neurotransmitters. Your sense of self is generated by the brain as a type of epiphenomenon. The brain does a variety of other things, but the sense of self is a very important one since it is responsible for the creation of human culture (through goal-oriented behavior) and our ability to interact with others in sophisticated ways (through language expressed in verbal, bodily, or written form).

I believe the spirit self manifests the mind and the body in addition to manifesting reality itself. I find support for my belief in the following work of physicist David Bohm and and Karl H. Pribram professor and a board certified neurosurgeon.

David Bohm (1917-94) was one of the foremost theoretical physicists of his generation and one of the most influential theorists of the emerging paradigm through which the world is increasingly viewed. Bohm's challenge to the conventional understanding of quantum theory has led scientists to re-examine what it is they are doing and to question the nature of their theories and their scientific methodology. He brought together a radical view of physics, a deeply spiritual understanding and a profound humanity. In the years before his death in 1992, Bohm lectured worldwide on the meaning of physics and consciousness.

Karl H. Pribram (born February 25, 1919 in Vienna, Austria) is a professor at Georgetown University and George Mason University, and an emeritus professor of psychology and psychiatry at Stanford University and Radford University. Board-certified as a neurosurgeon, Pribram did pioneering work on the definition of the limbic system, the relationship of the frontal cortex to the limbic system, the sensory-specific "association" cortex of the parietal and temporal lobes, and the classical motor cortex of the human brain. To the general public, Pribram is best known for his development of the holonomic brain model of cognitive function and his contribution to ongoing neurological research into memory, emotion, motivation and consciousness. American author Katherine Neville is his significant other.

Pribram's holonomic model, developed in collaboration with quantum physicist David Bohm, theorizes that memory/information is stored not in cells, but rather in wave interference patterns. Pribram was drawn to this conclusion by two facts:

* There are visual cortex response functions that correspond to Gabor functions, which in turn are related to hologram image functions.
* Drastic lesions can be made in animal brains which reduce, but do not extinguish memories (training), as demonstrated by Karl Lashley in the 1920s.

To formulate his model, Pribram utilized Fourier analysis, based on the Fourier Theorem, a variation of calculus that transforms complex patterns into component sine waves. Some believe that Pribram's theory also explains how the human brain can store so many memories in the engram in such limited space. Pribram believes the brain operates according to the same mathematical principles as a hologram. Bohm has suggested these wave forms may compose hologram-like organizations.

Technological advances associated with brain wave patterns, such as neuroimaging and transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), have provided understanding that was foreshadowed by the insights of Pribram and Bohm. TMS offers the potential for improving diagnostic objectivity and the efficacy of psychiatric interventions. Researchers have made significant advances with TMS brain implants, which focus magnetic pulses on specific brain regions, thereby perhaps altering the neurological wave patterns that Pribram describes.

I sighted my sources for why I believe as I do. Would you mind sighting some specific reason or sources that lead you to believe that the brain "generates the self?"

Do you know what causes a "higher cognitive function" to develop?

And finally, if the brain itself is "conscious" and consciously controls the body, then if scientist could keep the brain alive after it is extracted from a body as they do with other organs, then would that brain be conscious, and if so, how would you know?

jb

Awesome! I've heard of these individuals, but have never looked closely at their work. Pribram's holonomic model is fascinating and appears to be promising in understanding how memory works. I will add this to my list of ideas to study.

In regards to your initial statement, I would turn it around to say that the body (in the form of brain organization) manifests the sense of self that we seem to experience. I would also shy away from using the word "spirit" and simply use "self" as a term needing no other modifiers. Like spirit, the self is invisible. But unlike spirit, the self is a product of the brain and, as such, will cease to exist when the brain/body dies. Spirit, like the term soul, also carries with it certain religious connotations that are antithetical to a modern scientific understanding of the world.

For consideration: Just as we have no recollection of existence prior to our birth and the development of long-term memory (and similar to our experience of the time between falling asleep and the advent of dreaming), we will have no sense of existence after we die because the brain that generates this sense dies too.

In addition, because the self (a quality) is generated by a physical entity (the brain), the self is subject to alteration by drugs, alcohol, and other physical substances that may be ingested.

Please excuse me as I'm just getting the hang of how posting works. I would have to do some research to support the statements I've put forth. I'm simply stating what I believe based on what I've read about over time. I'm certainly not an expert or authority on any of this. However, I'd love to locate authortative sources for what I've claimed and, if you desire it and are willing to wait, I'm sure I can find such support.

Your last question is an interesting one. It reminds me of the brain-in-the-vat scenario. Since we couldn't communicate directly with such a brain, it would be difficult to know if the self was still functioning properly if disconnected from it's vocal appartus. If we could find some way to communicate with such a brain, we could probably answer this question definitively.

I use the word "spirit" for lack of a better word. The word "self" is not sufficient because so many people identify "self" with the body or the brain or the mind. I don't think "self" is any of these things.

I appreciate you stating that this is what you "believe" and I was just curious as to why your believe these things. That is why I asked for your reasons or sources. If it is just a belief you don't really have to explain it as it is more of a religion than a fact. Everyone has a right to believe what ever they want, and individuals have every right to decide what is real and what is not real as it relates to them.

Because I define "self" as a spiritual entity, I do not agree that it is a product of the brain.

What is a product of the body, brain and mind might be what I call "the person" which is the personality which develops as a result of its experience and perceptions in life.

Of course I believe in the incarnation of spirit into the body and that the spirit is the self. The "self" is not the "person" as the "self" is the sum total of all incarnations.

I realize that my beliefs are not scientific fact, that is why I call them beliefs.

I find it very difficult to exclude the spiritual nature of human existence and draw a line between what we know as "science" and what I know as "spiritual."

I realize that most scientists like to draw that line, but nothing makes any sense when you draw the line between these two things.

Just because a thing is "invisible" to our perceptions does not mean it does not exist.



That is contrary to my personal experience. I do have recollection of my existence prior to my birth, and I have my memory of being born.

There are also many people who have died and then come back to the living who also remember and have experienced their existence after they die.

So I doubt this statement can be confirmed or be called a fact.

Sky...



Looking to go 0-4 Sky?


JB...


Cognitive Neuroscience...

Google it, and do your own homework! There are as many independent studies as you should desire to read about concerning every conceivable property that you may think belongs to the "mind". Be ready though, because unlike your usual sources which validate your opinion with another's ,neuroscience plays no such game.

Did you know?

There are areas/regions in the brain that are known without a doubt to control things like language, emotion, and cognition. If those areas are damaged, those faculties are damaged accordingly and respectively. Those things are deeply rooted in the brain.

Did you know?

We have the ability to "knock a gene" out of a mouse which removes the mouses ability to learn.

Did you get that???? REMOVES THE ABILITY TO LEARN

Did you know?

We share that same gene!

If it(the gene) is multiplied then the mouse learns faster!

Genetics gives the computational hardware as well as it's tendencies and capabilities, and life feeds in the information which initiates the use of a system of systems.

Did you know?

The self(mind) is completely contained in the brain.

Look up Phineas Gage.

Did you know?

In another experiment...

When the hemispheres of the brain were surgically separated in a patient, that patient had two completely separate wills as a result. Imagery was shown to the right hemisphere such as the command "walk", and the subject got up and walked out of the room. When the whole subject was asked why he had walked out, he answered with all sincerity, "to get a Coke". The subject's left side, as does everyones, filled in the gap regarding behaviour. Same subject was shown the pictures of a snowstorm to the right hemisphere and a chicken to the left. Later on, when the whole patient was asked to relate a claw and a shovel to what he had been shown earlier, the response was that the claw obviously belonged to the chicken, and the shovel was needed to clean out the chicken coop!

The conscious "mind" does not dictate our behaviour, it merely tells us a story about it, so get yours straight.

Philosophy of the "mind" is dead.

It is the illusion of "I"...

Exorcise the "ghost"!

Do your own homework... and then...

Get over it!

The brain is a most amazing biological computer, but it is not the user.

Get over it.

Yeah, not likely.

Hmmmm... I pray you do tell.

Who then is using your brain?

I AM of course.

You are probably right on that one. A "person" would require a brain to be a "person."

This is how I imagine it goes:

From a conscious spirit,(self) --> to mind --> to body and brain --> to the person.

The "person" is the incarnated manifestation of the "self."

Right on! The brain is not a computer used by a spirit. The brain is the user of the body it has grown up in over the lifetime of the organism.

In his book "Looking For Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain," Professor of neurology Antonio Damasio supports the idea that the mind/consciousness/self (all synonyms for the same phenomena) is generated by the brain:

"The mind exists because there is a body to furnish it with contents. On the other hand, the mind ends up performing practical and useful tasks for the body - controlling the execution of automated responses in relation to the correct target; anticipating and planning novel responses; creating all sorts of circumstances and objects that are beneficial to the body's survival. The images that flow in the mind are reflections of the interaction between the organism and the environment, reflections of how the body's adjustments are faring in the unfolding life state."

"Someone might argue that since the brain provides the most immediate substrates of the mind - neural maps - the critical component to consider in the mind-body problem is the body's brain, not the body-proper. What do we gain by considering the mind in the perspective of the body, as opposed to considering the mind in the perspective of just the brain? The answer is that we gain a rationale for the mind that we would not discover if we considered the mind only in the perspective of the brain. The mind exists for the body, is engaged in telling the story of the body's mulifarious events, and uses that story to optimize the life of the organism. ... The brain's body-furnished, body-minded mind is a servant of the whole body."

"Why do we need the neurobiological level of operations that also includes what we call mind and consciousness? ...in the absence of consciousness in the comprehensive sense of the term - a process that includes both the movie-in-the-brain and the sense of self - we know for certain that life cannot be properly managed. Even temporary suspensions of consciousness entail an inefficient management of life. In effect, even the mere suspension of the self-component of consciousness entails a disruption of life management and returns a human being to a state of dependence comparable to that of a toddler. (This occurs in situations such as akinetic mutism.) It is certain that the conscious-mind level is a necessity for survival."

"But what exactly is the indispensable contribution that the conscious-mind level of biology brings to the organism? ...perhaps the sheer complexity of sensory phenomena at the mental level permits easier integration across modalities, e.g., visual with auditory, visual and auditory with tactile, etc. In addition, the mental level also would permit the integration of actual images of every sensory stripe with pertinent images recalled from memory. Moreover, these abundant integrations would prove fertile ground for image manipulation of information that the neural-map level would not permit. It is likely that in order to enable these new functions, the mind level of operations possesses biological specifications in addition to those present at the "current" neural-map level. That does not mean, however, that the mind level of biological operations is based on a different substance, in the Cartesian sense. The complex, highly integrated images of mental process still can be conceived as biological and physical."

"Now we consider what the sense of self brings to the process. The answer is "orientation." The sense of self introduces, within the mental level of processing, the notion that all the current activities represented in brain and mind pertain to a single organism whose auto-preservation needs are the basic cause of most events currently represented. The sense of self orients the mental planning process toward the satisfaction of those needs. That orientation is only possible because feelings are integral to the cluster of operations that constitutes the sense of self, and because feelings are continuously generating, within the mind, a "concern" for the organism. In brief, without mental images, the organism would not be able to perform in timely fashion the large-scale integration of the information critical for survival, not to mention well-being. Moreover, without a sense of self and without feelings that integrate it, such large-scale mental integrations of information would not be oriented to the problems of life, namely, survival and the achievement of well-being."

"For the time being it is not unreasonable to conceive of the mind as emerging from the cooperation of many brain regions. This occurs when the sheer accumulation of details regarding the state of the body that is mapped in those regions reaches a "critical pitch."

If it were, how would you know?

The problem with this conclusion is you can't really be sure. It is just like my conclusions that there is spirit behind all life.

I feel I am right about it but I can't be 100% sure. It is my personal experience and belief.

I have had out of body experiences and one of them was verified by someone who actually saw my light body. But even that is not proof.

You see, it is just like trying to prove or disprove God exists. You can't do it either.

But assume you are correct, then what motivates life? What motivates evolution? Why evolve? What is the point of any of it?

Without spiritual consciousness behind life it not only makes no sense, it has no purpose.

I find it difficult to believe that people define themselves as a brain and a bunch of organs. I personally would find it impossible to believe that.

But each to his own belief I guess.

No, it's obvious that it would be absolutely impossible for me to ever win, so you just go ahead and feel free to make up any score that will satisafy your need.

[edit: Sorry for the edit after your reply Jeannie, but I realized that attempting a reasonable conversation was not worth the effort.]

I agree. I don't know where Creative gets the idea that he has won any debate with you.

At least I took the time to offer some credible evidence, experience and argument to support my beliefs, but he just posts a few words and tells me to google it. No thanks. I have no need to google it. I took the time to explain my point of view and it was just dismissed and made fun of so I am not going to waste my time anymore. I already know what I know and why. There is no reason to spend any more energy in the direction of that kind of mind set. I know you know what I am talking about.

Yes, I do.

The relationship between brain and mind is like the relationship between a holographic projector and the image it projects. In short, the brain is the generator for the mind.

The brain encodes all memory in the form of protein sequences. These can undoubtedly be accessed and translated given the right technology. Whether that technology is a century away from being developed or many centuries is open to speculation.

Theoretically, information could be extracted from a living brain, but it may not be extractable from a dead one. I don't know what becomes of these protein sequences, but it is doubtful that they remain active after brain death. In the unlikely event that they do, getting them would depend upon the level of decomposition of the organ in question.

To those that believe the human mind is ethereal and cannot be explained by science (aka the soul). Well...

Too many people think that just because science lacks an understanding of something, then it cannot be explained by science. This is not true. The only limitation of science is the one we impose upon it through our own limitations. Science's only limitation is the human race's ability or inability to grasp an aspect of it at a given time. In short.