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Topic: The existence of Black Holes
beeorganic's photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:18 PM
For several years (on and off) I've been working on a quantum physics paper to sumbit to a physics journal called "Physical Review D" with a theory disproving the existence of "Black Holes". I tend to "gravitate" towards the "Dark Matter/ Gravastar" theories. While my undergraduate work was in biochemistry and physics (pre med), I make no pretenses of being in the same class or even remotely close to Newton, Einstein, Hawking, et al. This paper is a result of several niggling questions I've had that have never been answered by a few friends and theoretical physicists I'm aquainted with. Who knows, someone here may have the answers or help me (and all the other geeks who come here)to look at this theory from a different perspective.

I'm not going to get overly detailed (as in getting into all the math), or speak in ultra-scientific/physics/quantum mechanics terms or go into any great detail about my theory. I would like to approach this topic from a creative/imaginary perspective of readily understood models by everyone. For example: Thinking of a black hole like a the vortex around a bathtub drain when the water is being let out. My apologies in advance if I start inserting occasional musings that make no sense.

The "singularity" is one of the biggest questions I have concerning the black hole theory. The bottom of the bathtub drain where everything comes to a single point. It has no dimension (as in length, width, height). Envision a bowtie (like the type Pee Wee Herman wears), and the middle of the tie being the point where two opposing singularities meet (which would be inevitable if this theory is correct). Amended assumption- the black holes are of equal size, strength, ect.. What would you envision happening?

Incidently, I vow to cyber-strangle the first person who says "They exercise their free will and determined to head to the closest galaxy for a beer" laugh













ljcc1964's photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:26 PM
There's beer in other galaxies?

ljcc1964's photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:28 PM
I'm pretty sure I can't answer your question. I was an astrophysics major for like a year...laugh

Maybe you could tell me why two singularities would meet?

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:31 PM
and wouldn't they be infinitely small at the point of contact?

darkowl1's photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:39 PM
Edited by darkowl1 on Tue 11/18/08 08:40 PM
i know there's other dimensions, i've been in another one when i got out of body induced by myself to see if it's possible....and it is. as far as black holes, those are engines that make galaxies circulate at faster rates when they are active, but by no means the most frightening or weirdest thing in space. there's stuff out there that will absolutely boggle your mind, and in the other dimension, some extremely perplexing things are going on there too. it terrifies me and comforts me at the same time, for it leaves room for everlasting wisdom and awe and respect for that in which we live.

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:43 PM
The only black hole ever proved to exist was in Calcutta.drinker

SkyHook5652's photo
Tue 11/18/08 09:41 PM
My first thought is that two things with no dimension cannot actually “meet”. They might “occupy the same location”. But they cannot come in contact because there is no “surface area” to come in contact with. So I don’t envision anything happening to the singularities themselves.

However, I have trouble envisioning a singularity at all. Something that has no dimension, yet can effect changes in the physical universe? Much too deep for my shallow mind. laugh

beeorganic's photo
Wed 11/19/08 09:03 AM
Operating under the premise of two points with no dimension never meeting (though they occupy the same space). Say we push the two singilarity points together (to a location where matter of the individual black holes (BH's) make physical contact), perhaps in the "spaghetification" stage. In a sense, pushing the imagined bowtie closer to the middle. My inital (and completely wrong) belief was something that would resemble a configuration like "wormhole" creating a bridge in the same dimension where two singularities would perhaps reside side by side. This is impossible I believe- since the singularity is infinite (yet a point)... unless we have something I would name a "super singularity". (Typing outloud/side thought): One other consideration... the rotation of opposing BH's perhaps cancelling each other out?

Several theories suggest that every galaxy has black holes of different sizes (from super massive to nano-sized). Envision a super massive BH basically absorbing a smaller, weaker one; However, could two (or multiple)singularities? The way to envision this- is something like a muti-vortex tornado. So hypothetically, one super massive BH could contain an infinite number of
other BH's all leading to different infinite singularities.

no photo
Wed 11/19/08 10:26 AM
Edited by Spidercmb on Wed 11/19/08 10:59 AM
Can one black hole consume another? Yes, the one with the greatest mass would consume the other. If they both had the same mass, then I assume they would merge into one black hole with the combined mass of both.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980101c.html

This is all theoretical, as it has never been observed.

Nathan_W's photo
Wed 11/19/08 11:47 AM
Maybe the singularity of a black hole is a single point of contact between another universe expanding out through new dimensions. Maybe our universe began as a black hole of sufficient mass in a bigger universe that had infinitely more mass than this universe, and it follows a nice fractal pattern of universes expanding from each other forever.

Imagine a balloon filled with air. Twist off a small section of it and you get a new tiny balloon with a single point of contact with the original balloon. If the rubber were unbreakable, you could continue twisting off smaller balloons practically forever - each one having air inside.

Once a collection of mass gets enough mass to become a black hole, it bends the fabric of space-time enough to explode into the big bang of a new universe, only touching the existing one at the tiny singularity where that big bang takes place. Of course from our universe, they act like a collection of mass because all that mass exists in just one single point.

What happens to the mass that enters a black hole later? Who knows - maybe someday we'll see the location of the big bang and realize that mass seems to be created there - when really it's just leaking in from a much bigger universe on the other side.

Obviously I have no evidence or training to support this. I just think it's a cool way to imagine the structure of the universe (or would that be a multiverse?).

Nathan_W's photo
Wed 11/19/08 11:48 AM
(Oh, and yes I did come up with that theory when I was high. So it's obviously 100% accurate) :smile:

adj4u's photo
Wed 11/19/08 11:51 AM
is this a racist issue

and who is gonna be miss i-da-hoe

rofl rofl rofl



yes it is a joke get over it

after all how many crackers are in your soup slaphead slaphead

SkyHook5652's photo
Wed 11/19/08 11:52 AM
Can one black hole consume another? Yes, the one with the greatest mass would consume the other. If they both had the same mass, then I assume they would merge into one black hole with the combined mass of both.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980101c.html

This is all theoretical, as it has never been observed.
As I understand it, BHs aren't really "things". There is no physic substance to a BH. There is a singularity that has no dimension (thus no "physical" existence per se), and there is a spherical area (the "event horizon") that marks the size of the gravitational field from which nothing can escape.

So the "merging" of black holes is simply the overlap of two gravitational fields - like the gravitational fields of the earth and the moon overlap.

Now as to how a dimensionless point can have any gravity all, that's the part that I can't wrap my wit's around.


Ruth34611's photo
Wed 11/19/08 11:52 AM


after all how many crackers are in your soup slaphead slaphead


5? Is that right? Do I win a prize? :wink:

no photo
Wed 11/19/08 02:15 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081118161603.htm

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/010711a.html

wacky_yet_grounded's photo
Wed 11/19/08 02:20 PM
Possibly the singularity is an opening into the ever growing accepted theory or parallel universes. Most people know that black holes actually have their own particular evaporation rate. Especially supermassive blackholes. Upon evaporation, I wonder what happens to the singularity?

creativesoul's photo
Wed 11/19/08 08:45 PM
Doesn't time stop at the event horizon? huh

Should the exponentially increasing point of mass created by the gravitational force collapsing all matter be reason for one to believe that the energy required to move this singularity be infinite?

My understanding of this is at best, limited...

blushing

flowerforyou



beeorganic's photo
Wed 11/19/08 10:01 PM
One aspect of my theory (which is built upon the not widely accepted views of the Gravastar Theory; Along with, several other theories including "String Theory"). This eliminates the singularity entirely.

I was looking at a glass of pure water (H2O) in relationship to matter and anti-matter. The Hydrogen being anti-matter (or dark matter) and the Oxygen being matter (disregarding the valence shells, atomic weights, ect.). It's claimed when matter and anti-matter collied they annialate each other. What if the bonds between the two different atoms acted as a substrait to prevent them cancelling each other out? Basically a referee standing between two fighters in a boxing match. I imagined this taking place in every form of matter/anti-matter. This would take into consideration all the known "forces" of the universe (gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear).

The battle for supremacy between matter and anti-matter in the universe: I looked at it from the perspective of a corporation. If one shareholder owns 50.1% of the stock, that person controls the company. The rest of the shareholders can pool and concentrate their shares and wait for an opportunity to attempt a coup.














no photo
Thu 11/20/08 05:54 AM

Doesn't time stop at the event horizon? huh

Should the exponentially increasing point of mass created by the gravitational force collapsing all matter be reason for one to believe that the energy required to move this singularity be infinite?

My understanding of this is at best, limited...

blushing

flowerforyou




My understanding is also limited,and so is everyone's so don't feel bad. Black holes are a new field that once was thought to be a waste of time due to the nature of the event horizon and the limiting nature of modeling (due to lack of processing power, and lack of proper math)

No time does not stop at the horizon for the "thing" "falling" in. In relation to a frame of refernce outside the hole, it appears to have stopped, but that is not the actuality of it, that is an optical illusion, the image will fade away eventually, and the thing will have long ago crossed the horizon.

Our math is not sophisticated enough to explain how time and space work inside the horizon so we can really only guess right now.

String theory does say something about this, but again remember string theory is not really a theory . . . yet

s1owhand's photo
Sat 11/22/08 06:15 AM
but what about Cygnus X-1, M87, M84?

laugh

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