Thanks mirror. I had never heard of a sect. If they have registered with the government as any kind of organization or corporation, then they have lost me.

I prefer complete autonomy from government. Government is currently infiltrated and controlled by the Illuminati who are drones for the New World Order and Draconian politics.

I shouldn't have said, 'so many'.

I don't know why I typed that. I simply meant that I had seen a few web sites on Wicca that appeared to be pushing that agenda.

I didn't save the links because I clicked off them faster than a bat out of hell.

There will always be radicals in every group, I'm sure that Wicca is no different.

However, my 'vision' when they speak about being a 'recognized' religion. Meaning having been recognized by the govenment of the USA as a valid religion.

Then I have to ask why they even want that? And will it lead to actual Wicca chruches (or organized groups). With they become tax-exempt organizations. Etc, etc, etc.

Who will speak for Wicca? Who is their spokesperson, etc.

I'm just not into organized religions at all. Period.

I think that not only should their be a separation of Church and state, but that they should be totally seperate.

Instead of the government recognizing Wicca as a 'valid' religion. Why don't they just not bother recognizing religions at all. Period.

The only reason a religion should need to be tax exempt is because it's organized and dealing with large sums of money.

Surely there are non-profit non-religious organizations that just do thing for humanitary purposes.

Why not just leave it at that. Why even bother recognizing the concept of 'religion' on a governmental level at all? Then they wouldn't need to worry about what is or isn't a 'valid' religion.

To simply recognize it as being 'valid' is to support it. But I thought that the government wasn't supposed to support specific religions?

Something's not quite right there.

A sect is larger than a cult.Its members still feel some tension between their views and the prevailing beliefs and values of the broader society,but as the sect grows the tension fades.To appeal to a broader base,the sect shifts some of its doctrines, redefining matters to remove some of the rough edges that created tension between it and the rest of society.As the members become more respectable in the eyes of society,they feel less hostility and little, if any, isolation.If a sect follows this course,as it grows and becomes more integrated into society,it changes into a church.

I don't see why religions need to be recognized by the government at all.

Like I say, if they want to create a non-profit humanitarian effort, then that would be ok, but they should also be made to have that open to everyone in order to qualify for the tax exemption.

Why should the government endorse religions of any kind?

Instead of religions competing for governmental recognition they should just all be viewed as a private organizations that have nothing to do with government.

The government as a whole should not support any religion and that includes atheism. To not support religion is not the same as denying spirituality or gods. It's just claiming to not support any spiritual belief or even non-belief.

That's the way it should be. It should be a complete non-issue when it comes to government. It's just not up to the government to support or reject spirituality. It's just not necessary for government to do that.

Abra this is pretty much what I have established also from my dealings with Pagans. On a certain level many Wiccans actually do seek to become higher profile and "out of the broom closet". Others would much prefer to remain in secret and retain their privacy. Some do have genuine fears for their families and those associated with them that if it were known they were practicing Witches, this could lead to problems and although they might be willing to accept and confront these issues on a personal level, it is not worth risking the safety of their families, loved ones or friends.

My personal feeling is that if Wicca stays on the path it is now and continues to grow in popularity, opposition to it will only increase if it is perceived as a threat to other more established and rooted organized religions. Unfortunately, that is just the name of the game as some see it. From a statistical standpoint (as much as these things can ever be accounted for) Wicca is the fastest growing religion currently in the US right now. There are probably many reasons for this. I know I was initially attracted to it just based on its association with the Earth which was important to me on a personal level as a naturalist. I think others are drawn to it just because it has no central authority like a pope or a clergy. I experimented with Catholicism and instantly discovered I did NOT like certain priests and could have a strong reaction and aversion to them!

The figures I was able to find on the net suggested about 750,000 members in the US today. This makes Wicca the 5th largest organized religion in this country. The order as it stands now is Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism.

True Wicca actually requires an initiation into the religion through a High Priestess.

What are the details involved? Is "True Wicca" a legal entity? What constitutes a "High Priestess?" of Wicca? Is this a corporation, association, private club or secret society?

JB

One reason the government needs to recognize a religion is because they are supposed to allow people to worship freely and have freedom of religion and sometimes a law could interfere with that.

Native Americans are allowed to own eagle feathers for the purpose of their religious beliefs but if you get caught with eagle feathers or any feathers of a wild bird and you are not a native American using them for religious purposes, then you have broken the law.

The religious practices of the native Americans were in existence before the laws were made to protect the eagles and wild birds so they have the right to keep their practice in tact. But you can't just create a new "religion" today whose practices would be against current statutes.



Anyone can have a non-profit corporation, but it must follow certain guidelines. The non-profit status is simply a way to make and use money that is tax exempt.

If you are operating a group that makes money and you do not pay taxes on that money and you are not registered as a legal non-profit organization with the government, then you are in violation of statutes. You (or your group or church) are also not recognized as a legal entity.



The government does not endorse "religions." Churches are corporations. They are usually registered as non-profit so they don't have to pay taxes on income generated.

A belief system is not always a "religion." A belief system does not have to be registered as a corporation or pay taxes.
It is only when you acquire members and start collecting dues and generating income that you are required to register as a business or non-profit. If you do not, then you are operating illegally. It is not wise to be a member of such a group because you are not protected against fraud. The group leader could easily steal all the funds.



Religions don't "compete" for governmental recognition. If you are a church you must be a corporation. You don't HAVE to be a non-profit corporation, (but you will have to pay taxes on income if you are NOT a non-profit corporation.)

Any "church" that is not a corporation is just a group of people who have a belief system.

It is when that group gets a bank account (or a piggy bank) and starts to make money, that it needs to become a legal entity or corporation. This is also for the protection of the members in the group. It can help prevent the leader (or high priestess) from absconding with the funds with no paper trail to prove anything.

A "private organization" is either a company, partnership, corporation or association. All of these entities are registered with the government, state or federal.

Anything not registered is not a legal "entity" and does not officially exist except as a "secret society" or private club or group.



The government (our government) doesn't give a rats ass about religion and does not support or endorse it. All it cares about is Law, taxes, and money.

I am using the term "True Wicca" to apply to that religion started by Gerald Gardner. My understanding is that there are 3 levels or degrees of initiation. I don't know if 3rd degree is the same as High Priest or High Priestess or if that is the next step.

I believe that there are Wiccan churches that have tax exempt status.

A High Priestess has gone throught the training set out by Gerald Gardner and others. Kind of like a Catholic Priest has gone through the training set forth by the Catholic Church.

I don't know what the legal status is of all this. Lily could probably answer these questions much better than I. I am not Wiccan and never looked into it once I found it to be an organized religion.

Thanks. (I imagine Gerald Gardner's church is a registered non-profit organization.)

Also, anyone who would like, can take any spiritual beliefs and practices (to include wicca,) register a non-profit organization and start their own church or sect, get ordained or ordain themselves and start a religious organization.

If you are going to be part of a group that calls itself a church or religion and they extract money and earn money from your efforts then it is a good idea to make sure they are a legal corporation. Otherwise you are putting your money and faith and time into something that has no foundation and no legal recourse (other than civil court) if you get ripped off.

JB

It all gets very complicated. That's why I just "do what I do". I allow people to call me Wiccan because it's the only term that they can understand quickly.

Thanks Ruth. This was my understanding also and in fact why I also have not devoted myself to the pursuit of Wicca. When I first began to take an interest in the spirituality itself I had no idea that they were designated as an "organized religion" and that concept kind of turned me off. Though I certainly find the premise interesting. I would never consider donating money or involving myself financially with any religious organization and I would immediately question ANY group that requested this means of support from me. I guess some people can fall for it though and its sad. I must say I have never had Wiccans request or solicit funds from me in any manner. I think I will hit up Lily as I know she was involved for quite some time.

The Wiccans here do not solicit funds. I have only seen them ask for donations when they do a public event for anyone who cares to attend. Once a month they put on a Pagan Meet Up and anyone is invited to attend. It's the best way to meet other pagans in the area. They ask for a donation to help pay for the advertising of the event.

Yes, Lily would be the person most knowledgeable on Wicca.

Oh yeah, something like that is totally reasonable because it is paying for the actual expense to put on a fair or meet up. I am well aware of that financial burden as I attend Renaissance Fairs with my alpaca goods and rent a booth. I just meant someone creeping around asking for $100s of dollars out of the blue for something that is not clearly defined. That would make me a little nervous. Or someone telling me it is obligatory or that I should invest myself in such a manner. Thats a little different.

Hopefully that will not happen. The kind of "fundraising" that is unacceptable seems to be mainly a Christian thing. Or do Mormons and JW do that too? I don't see Buddhists or Hindus doing it. Do Muslims?

Yep. Ive never been comfortable with the idea of having to purchase my salvation.

I posted a couple pics of my altar on my profile for anyone who is interested.

Cool! What is that drawing? Is that the God and Goddess? Can you get any closer on that in the light maybe?

Well this settles it for me. I'm definitely not a Wiccan and not about to become one either.

However, I will indeed continue to enbrace witchcraft and use the symbology of the moon and sun Goddess and God to represent the spiritual Yin and Yang of nature.

On Recognized Religions

I think it's a shame that religions need to be 'organized' in order to be recognized.

Like Krimsa points out, there are a lot of 'natural witches' who want to just practice their natural spirituality in privacy in their own way. They may be willing to share and teach what they know, but they want to do it in a very non-dogmatic way.

What I would suggest is that for all 'Natural Witches', (i.e. not Wiccans). To simply start a movement encouraging all natural witches to support a "Checkbox".

Yep that's right.

That's all they want, and all they need.

They don't need a leader, or a spokesperson, or anything. All they need is a checkbox on religious surveys.

When the survey is passed around it might look like the following:

_ Christianity
_ Islam
_ Judaism
_ Hinduism
_ Wicca
_ Natural Witch
_ etc.

Then when surveys are taken people could just check the checkbox so we know they are there.

They could check that checkbox without feeling as though they are supporting any particular doctine that was written by any particular person claiming what the religion might need to be.

That's about the only way a religion could be 'recognized' without becoming dogmatic.

Natural Witches could then be recognized without forcing any specific doctine on them. Just recognize a label that has no detailed meaning.

Where's Jess Lee?

I wonder what she would think of a label that has no meaning outside of being a label applies to people who don't want to be labeled.

I'm just trying to find a way to make it potentially visible without a need to forcing it to become a dogma.

I think Wicca has indeed gone the way of dogmatism. Especially if it requires an initiation process by a high priestess.

Now you've really got me scared off of it as an organized religion.

But I'm still totally into the actual techniques of witchcraft.

To Jeannie,

Where does the "Law of Attraction" fit into all of this? It's clearly not claiming to be a religion, but it's certainly claiming to be 'spiritual' or at the very least psyche related.

In does suggest that we need to ASK teh universe or higher self. So it's talking in terms of appealing to some higher power. Even if it believes that power to be our higher self.

It's still a form of 'spirituality' or at the very least, a philosophy based on a power of the psyche.