"Skyhook" you use the word "Manifestation" when you were referring to the analogy of how God and Jesus was like ice water and steam ..doesn't Manifest means to change ... so come on quit acting illogical

actually ice can go thruogh the process of sublimation where it by-passes the liquid stage ang goes directly from a solid to a gas. class dismissed -

your way off your post objective!!

get back to your original question or i'll report you for being off topic -

"Tribo" that's not what the class was about Mr. Science ...it was about not using faith based concepts to explain scientific facts ...

read above your post my friend!! if i were you i'd report myself!!!

thanks "Tribo" ..it's been so long since someone has reported me...I kind of miss getting rude obnoxious e-mail from the moderators ...

but what does that has to do with The Trinty

nah iwouldn't do that funch, you'd try argueing withthem and then what? they'd ban you.

so your threat was a hoax to induce me to your will? ...hummm I see you have retain some of your christian values

you must have missed the last emoticon after off topic

so back to the original queston of the trinity as i said the answer is no.
to expand, gos is all 3 father son and spirit so its a moot point.

"Tribo" ....it was a joke

how dare you be illogical!!!

Not to get into it too deeply, but if one must look at something at a superficial level, that, in reality, is so deep as to not be understood, then it would not behoove one to even bother with it. But, for those who wish to look more deeply into things, there will be blessings. It's a promise from above, not from below. This is from a study that I attended, this last sabbath, past.

Gen 1:1

Gen 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.

H7225 ראשׁית rê'shîyth, ray-sheeth' From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

According to Dennis Blackburn (YHVH bless his soul), in the Aramaic Targum (Probably Jonathan), 245 years before Messiah, Gen. 1:1 is read that “in the memrah” or rather, “in the firstborn son” Elohim created all things, so we can see by this that they had an expectation of the Messiah that parallels that which is shown in the Greek commentary (New Testament) of the Ancient Covenant (Old Testament). I have yet to be able to verify this thought, though.

Also, if you were to look at an interlinear Bible, you would see a point of interest that the translators have not brought over into the English. Below and reading from left to right, as we do in English, rather than right to left as we would normally do in Hebrew (I do this for ease of recognition for whoever might be reading this, who is not familiar with this rule. But, at the same time, each of the individual letters in each word are still read from right to left.)

בראשׁיתH7225 בראH1254 אלהיםH430 אתH853 השׁמיםH8064 ואתH853 הארץ׃H776

Between the word numbered H430 (“Elohim” Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God) and the word H8064 (shâmayim; shaw-mah'-yim: from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve) we see the word coded H853 ('êth; ayth: apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely).

The two letters that this particular word is made from are the Aleph and the Tav. We also see that at the close of the Bible a particular claim is made by the Messiah. In verse 13, below, we see the claim of Messiah that he is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the first and the last. This particular principle is used at the very beginning of the Bible in Genesis 1:1 and at the very end of the Bible in Rev. 22:13.

Aleph/Tav in Hebrew. Alpha/Omega in Greek. This particular word (Aleph Tav) appears over 6,000 times between Genesis and Malachi in the Hebrew text.

Rev 22:10-16 And he (the angel to Yochanon) saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. I Yehoshua have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the morning star.

Just as an aside, in verse 11, we are reminded of what we have studied previously, with the capture of an enemy woman that an Israelite would see and want to take as his wife, back in Dt 21:11-13, wherein the Israelite man was to take the captive enemy woman to his own private place and she was to be shown respect for 30 days, and during that time the man was not to interfere with the woman, so if she wanted to continue her idolatrous ways, then she would be showing her true heart by being allowed to continue to do so. She was NOT to be coerced into doing that which she did not want to do in her heart. She was allowed to continue on in her own ways, just as the passage in Revelation shows us. Let the righteous continue to be righteous and let the filthy continue to be filthy. We are simply to bring the Word to people and allow IT to have its way with people. If the one who hears the Word takes heed, then they will make the proper adjustments in their lives. If the one who hears the Word does not take heed, then we have done our part by speaking to them (Eze 3:18-21) and they are given every chance to come to repentance, until the time of judgment.

I apologize for the digression.

Getting back to the thought of the firstfruits:

Gen 49:3 states, “Reuben, you are my firstborn, my might, and the firstfruits of my strength, preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power.”

The Strong's #7225, is shown here in this verse, also. The phrase can be translated as the “first” or “start of my effort”, as it is rendered in the Hebrew. It is shown as the beginning or the “generative power” of Ya'acov (Jacob). This refers to the descendants of Ya'acov, which, if we are of the faith and obedience, we belong.

Regarding the firstborn of a man with two wives where his firstborn son is from the one wife who is not loved, we are shown in Dt. 21: 17: “but he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the firstfruits of his strength. The right of the firstborn is his.” So, we can see the importance of the firstborn in that it takes precedence over a man's own desire to do unjustly to the sons who are born to him. And, if we are to remember that everything in heaven and on earth was given to the firstfruits of YHVH, upon His resurrection, then we can see a clearer picture of the Messiah's preeminence amongst all his brothers. (Ro. 8:28-29)

The key to all of this is to understand the “beginning of YHVH's strength”. We see this first and foremost in YeHoshua, and this was from the very beginning of things in Genesis 1:1, all the way down to the end. And we are to be counted in this list, if we are found faithful and obedient.

In Jeremiah, we are shown the following:

Jer 2:1-3 And the word of Jehovah came to me, saying, Go, and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith Jehovah, I remember for thee the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals; how thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown. Israel was holiness unto Jehovah, the first-fruits of his increase: all that devour him shall be held guilty; evil shall come upon them, saith Jehovah.

This shows us a couple of things. Our own lives parallel that of Israel, when we come to the faith of Avraham. In the youth of our faith and our vow to remain faithful to YHVH, we follow Him through the wilderness of all the world offers us. Those who come against us will be held responsible for their actions against us. This is a promise and a covering of protection that we have with YHVH, when we enter into His covenant for us and stand apart from the world, based on His instructions and testimonies for us (Is. 8:20). We are also told that in the world, we will have persecution because of this (Mt. 5:12; John 15:20) But woe be to those who try to sway us away from our faith, via whatever means they choose to use.

The following passages either directly parallel the words of Gen. 1:1 or bring about the thought of the firstborn of creation, which again, points us back to Gen. 1:1

John 1:1 shows us, “In the beginning He was the Word, and the Word He was with Elohim, and the Word He was Elohim.” This is a more proper rendition of the passage than what most English Bibles have today, a small amount of study will prove this point.

Strong's shows us the word “beginning” as G746 ἀρχή, archē, ar-khay' From the root of G756; a commencement, or chief.

Thayers definition shows:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

Col 1:13-20 “He has delivered us from the domain of darkness (the ways and works of men) and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the ekklesia. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of YHVH was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.”

Heb 1:1-6 Elohim, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, being made so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He say at any time, "You are My Son, this day I have begotten You?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?" And again, when He brings in the First-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of Elohim worship Him."

Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says Adonay, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 3:13-14 'Let the person who has an ear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.' "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the beginning of Elohim's creation, says this:...”


Finally, for this week, a little bit regarding the “trinity.” If one part of this doctrine fails, then it cannot be true. If we are to understand that there are three manifestations of “God” in this, then, by all counts, each portion should have the attributes of “God.” This is not the case, though. We see (through intellectual perception) and know that YHVH is El. We know that YHVH is Spirit (Jn 4:24). So, we see both the Father and the Spirit are Echad. YeHoshua, in physical form, is not, nor can He be considered a part of this “trinity.” We see that YeHoshua was one man in one place at one time. He was limited in movement. He was limited in knowledge. He was limited in power. Christians will try to hold onto this doctrine, no matter the cost to them, even if it is for their very own lives, which they will lose if they continue to hold to pagan doctrine, which the trinity is.

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who makes alive; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen YHVH; the only Elohim, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Joh 5:37-47 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of YHVH within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only Elohim? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Joh 6:45-46 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by YHVH.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-- not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from YHVH; he has seen the Father (known by intellectual perception, since YHVH is a spirit and cannot be seen with eyes).

Joh 14:8-12 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." YeHoshua said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. (It was not YeHoshua that Philip was to get to know, personally. It was YeHoshua/Torah, Spririt, Breath/YHVH that Philip was to get to know.)

Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning He was the Word, and the Word He was with YHVH, and the Word He was YHVH. He was in the beginning with YHVH. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (In the beginning, before YeHoshua had a body, He was YHVH, in essence.)

It must be understood that YeHoshua was simply one man at one place at one time. Getting back to the thought shown to us in John 6:63, then we see that the body counts for nothing. Again, He said, “It is the Spirit who makes alive; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” He was not speaking of His own physical being that was of importance.

1Jn 4:12-15 No one has ever seen YHVH. If we love one another, YHVH abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. (By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Deliverer of the world. Whoever confesses that YeHoshua is the Son of YHVH, YHVH abides in him, and he in YHVH. (The Father has sent forth a physical being into this world, led and guided by His very own Spirit, in a way that no one else has ever been led. And yet we see that this very being had a will of His own, separate from that of the Father. Or else He would not have been understood to have said, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”

If “God” takes second place to anyone, then this god is not God. And yet we see this with YeHoshua, when He says the following:

Joh 5:19 Then YeHoshua answered and said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father doing; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

Joh 5:30 I can of My own self do nothing. Even as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Joh 8:28 Therefore YeHoshua said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and from Myself I do nothing; but just as My Father taught Me, these things I speak.

Joh 8:38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."

Joh 8:42 Therefore YeHoshua said to them, "If YHVH were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth and have come from YHVH; nor have I come from Myself, but He sent Me.

Joh 16:27-28 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from YHVH. I came forth from the Father and I have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and I am going to the Father."

Mat 19:16-17a And behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, that is, YHVH.”

What of this thought that we see at the end of Matthew, wherein we see, “ And YeHoshua came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Mat 28:18-20)

First of all, if authority has been given to YeHoshua, then that, quite possibly, means that he did not have that authority in and of Himself, prior to that point, as we have already seen.

Next, we are to “baptize in the name...”

Let's look at that word “name”

It is shown to us from Strong's G3686 ὄνομα, onoma, on'-om-ah. From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a “name” (literally or figuratively), (authority, character):

G1097 γινώσκω ginōskō, ghin-oce'-ko A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications

G3685 ὀνίνημι oninēmi, on-in'-ay-mee A prolonged form of an apparent primary verb ὄνομαι onomai; for which another prolonged form ὀνάω onaō is used as an alternate in some tenses (unless indeed it be identical with the base of G3686 through the idea of notoriety);

We are to baptize (perform mikvah) in the Authority of the Father, the Son and the Set Apart Spirit. How else can this be interpreted, because we know the name of the Father and of the Son, but there is no known name for the Spirit, so how can we do this, otherwise? It is the authority, through the Spirit that matters. This is what YeHoshua tried to show us. It is the essence of YHVH, Himself, that matters. It is His Torah. His Word. It is by the authority of YHVH, shown to us by His Son, in the Spirit that we are to go about teaching and making disciples of all nations, bringing them into the same Spirit that YeHoshua has shown us in Torah. He and Torah are the very words of YHVH.
Don't forget, that Torah is a transcript of the divine nature of YHVH and extends its authority to the soul of man. It is the essence of who He is. YeHoshua is this transcript brought to life and yet His flesh, by His own words, counted for nothing.

Shalom Shalom

I can be reached at tim.w.beeker@gmail.com, if there are any questions, comments, slams, screams, cursings or anything else that one might wish to come up with. I'll respond to most, if not all replies.

"TWBee"..I have a question...will your reply be a "google cut and paste" like your post or will you be able to form your our thoughts unlike your post

I guess I never really answered the original question to this topic.

The question was, does the "YeHoshua (Jesus) is God" thought go against YHVH'S (God's) law?

One has to look at the dual nature of YeHoshua in order to be able to explain the answer.

The answer is both "yes" and "no", depending on how you view the Messiah. You have a right and proper view as regarding Him as the "son of YHVH" and you have the improper view of Him as Christians see him in the trinity.

The view is contingent upon the reality of what/who the Messiah is.

I guess I'd have to ask the question as to what Ezekiel 16:63 says, in order to answer the question, here.

It says, "...so that you may remember and be ashamed. And you will not any more open your mouth, because of your humiliation, when I am propitiated (or as it might be rendered, "I have become your propitiation") for you for all that you have done, declares the Adonay YHVH."

well - there goes this OP - byeeeeee eveyone

TWBee..the point I'm trying to make is that the christians may have been mis-lead to follow a false God

so going by your "yes" or 'No" and excluding the christian factor are you saying that worshipping Jesus as God violate God's law in the context of false idol worshipping

No, the definition of maniest that I've been using, does not mean to change. However, you are free to choose a definition that does mean change. In which case, the analogy would not be logical to you. I, on the other hande, choose to use a definition that does not mean change, so it is perfectly logical to me.

Sky,

don't forget funches law

Paragraph 1:

funches is always right

Paragraph 2:

Should funches for some reason or other not be right, paragraph 1 applies automatically.