There are many things written.

Just because it is written, does not make it true.

Just because it claims to be true does not make it true.

Just because it claims to be the word of God does not make it true.

There are many books written that claim to be true.

Do you believe them all?

If not, why not? What are your objections?

JB

I think it is unrealistic to think that anyone who reads the Bible will naturally become a Christian.

JB

Baloney.

The bottom line with the Bible is that the only way to God is through salvation from a confession of sin.

Period.

That's the the bottom line of the Bible. And it also claims that no man come go to God other than through this negative process.

It's a negative relationship with God.

Period.

You just want to try to obsure that fact by trying to distract on details. Meaningless petty arguments about specific verses and meanings of verses, etc.

I'm done with that evasive bull crap.

The biblical picture is a negative picture of man's relationship with God.

That's the bottom line of the biblical story no matter how you read it.

There is no other way to get to the Biblical God outside of this negative picture of confessing that we have miserally failed God and were responsible for him having to have his Son nailed to a pole.

All the rest is just excuses of how this negative story came to be. And those excuses don't hold water for me.

Religions must be following on 'pure faith'.

I see no reason to put my faith in such a negative picture of God.

If I have to put faith in something, let it be a postive picture of God.

This I turn to Wicca. A very positive and beauitful picture of God. And I even recognize that this picture is just another myth.

That's ok with me because I'm merely chosing my relationship with God. And so I choose a positive relationship.

I see nothing postive in a religion that is based on sin and salvation.

And therefore I'm not going to chose to put my faith in such a negative picture.

It's as simple as that.

And so I'm just sharing this with anyone else who wants to place their 'faith' in God wisely.

Ah ha! But here's the slippery slope logic commonly used in this type of discussion....

Did you study the bible with a learned mentor/teacher to guide you?

Did you attack the bible as one would a degree in ergonomics?

If not, then apparently you haven't READ the bible...

(sort of like the fine print/loophole on a dodgy used car finance contract)

No such slippery slope. Abra doesn't understand the Bible and has no working knowledge of what it teaches. He has proven that many times. It doesn't matter if he had a mentor or what translation he used. Simple concepts, which are taught in Children's Sunday school have surprised Abra. I'm not trying to be hurtful or anything, I'm just pointing out the obvious facts.

Perhaps, but have you read and tried to understand the Bible?

JB,

I was asking someone else the question. I will wait for her to respond. I'm not interested in rehashing the discussion with you.

Yes and I understand it perfectly.

I'll be glad to answer this question. And contrary to Spider's misinformation I have indeed read the Bible many times. I just haven't read every single word of it because there were parts that were either simply too boring, or took sick, or too absurd to continue. So I skipped over them.

I could write a book on why I don't believe the Bible.

To begin with God is supposed to be all-wise, all-powerful, all-perfect, and so on and so forth, yet the stories in the Bible don't have God doing things that I personally consider to be very wise.

At one point God tells people to stone sinners to death. This would require that the people actually judge others to be sinners. So God is actualy asking people to do his judging for him.

I don't believe that God would ever do such a thing, but there it is right in the Bible. Thus I don't beleive that the Bible was written by God. I believe that men wrote the Bible to entice other people to do their murdering for them. The authors of the Bible knew they couldn't be there to know who the "sinners" were. So they had the people erradicating them for in their stead.

Why would God ever do such a thing?

If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-wise, then why doesn't he just give the sinners a heartattack when appropreate? Why ask mere mortal men to stone sinners to death?

So this is out of character for what God is supposed to be capable of and it makes no sense to me that God would have ever done that.

God also requested blood sacrifices to pay for sins. Again I don't see any wisdom in this. If God is supposed to be an all-wise Fatherly Figure, then why ask for blood sacrifices as atonements for sin? There's nothing wise or positive about that.

Instead I believe that an all-wise supreme being would have requested some kind of positive constructive atonements. Like maybe demanding some kind of constructive community service or something like that.

As a mere mortal man I can think up a lot of very constructive positive ways to have men atone their sins in ways that would keep them occupied in positive acts and teach them responsiblity.

So again, I have no reason to beleive that God would be less wise than myself. I just don't see anything positive or constructive in blood sacrifices.

As an aside: This is also too much inline with all the other mythologies of the Mediterranean region including Greek Mythology. Why would the real supreme creator of the universe just happen to want the same things that were common to all mythologies in the region? This to me indicates that the story is nothing more than just more supersitions of men.

As I've read through the Bible I've run across a lot of male-chauvinist rituals and rules. I personally don't beleive that God is a male-chauvinistic pig.

In fact, the Bible actually starts out with a male-chauvinist picture.

Adam is created in God's image. Then Eve is created almost as an afterthought from a rib of Adam to indication that she is his property.

This is definitely a patriarchal religion. I don't believe that God is like that.

It even goes on to have Eve leading Adam to sin. Once again playing the woman in the more guilty role of leading the man into sin. Just more male-chauvinism IMHO.

Just to keep this brief, let me jump ahead to Jesus. He we have Jesus teaching against an-eye-for-an-eye (revenge) which was the law of the God of Abraham and replacing it with "turn the other cheek" (forgiveness)

That's a complete about face for a God that isn't supposed to change his fundamental essence.

Jesus also denounced the stoning of sinners which people were still doing in his day as the God of Abraham had commanded them to do.

So I don't see where Jesus could have been the Son of the God of Abraham. He had a whole different view of life.

Yet the idea that the God of Abraham sent Jesus as a blood sacrifice (to appease his own need for blood sacrifices by the way!), is totally senseless to me.

I also believe that an all-wise, all-intelligent, all-powerful God could figure out better ways to solve problems. Has anyone ever noticed that the biblical God always solves porblems with negative horrific acts (including having his own son butchered on a pole)?

How is that all-wise? I don't see it at all. An all-wise God could do better.

I haven't even touched on the Great flood which gives me a myriad of reasons to not believe that the bible came from any all-wise God. I just don't see any wisdom in that act at all.

Also if God was all-powerful why a messy flood? Why not just give the sinners heartattacks. They were supposedly having lots of sex anyway.

Is this the same God that can miraculously cure cancer when you pray to him? If so then why couldn't he just make all the sinners just disappear with the flick of his wrist?

Why the need for a messy mechanical erradication using a flood?

It's a silly story IMHO.

In fact, it's utterly absurd.

I see not reason to believe it on pure faith. And it's far too negative and unwise for my tastes.

I don't believe that God is like that at all.

You, know I never could understand, if God is all knowing, then me must already know I am sorry before I do.

You posted this:

"I honestly believe that if you ever read the Bible you would become a Christian. No right thinking, honest person could do any different."

I am a right thinking, honest person and am not a Christian. So, the question isn't what objections I have to the Bible, but why do you think that only people that think the way you do and believe what you do are "right thinking and honest"?

Yes, but only if you are sorry.

No, the question in my mind is "Did she read and understand the Bible", so I asked for objections to see if you could pose your own objections or if you would copy/paste from some website. You did neither, so I am no closer to answers to my question.

That's an excellent answer Ruth.

I think Spider Almighty has allowed his religion to go to his head.

come on who is not sorry, if we are made after his image then we must be inherently good? Therefore sorry for any bad things we do. Unless, he has a part of him that isn't sorry.

Again this implies that you believe my objections simply need to be addressed and "fixed". I care not to debate the truthfulness of religion as it is a subject that will just go around and around and around. Right thinking and honest people cannot be convinced when it come to religion. They simply come to understand what is true for themselves and recognize it may or may not be the same for others.

The truth is, Spider, that I could post objections all day long and in the end, if I didn't agree with you I would still be considered by you to be not "right thinking and honest".

Pointing out the obvious facts?

You're lying is what you are doing.

You're committing slander is what you are doing.

You have no clue how I react to concepts that are taught in Children's Sunday school, and if I've seemed to be surprised it's only because I'm shocked that adults could teach such terrible things to little children.

You knowing lied on the previous page too,...



You know perfectly well that I have read the Bible. So your accusation here is something that you know is a lie.

You also know that I was born and raised into a Christian family. You know that several of my uncles were preachers. You know that I was 'saved' when I was in my teens. And you also know that I was a Christian for the entire first 30 years of my life.

So to claim that I've never been a Christian is another known lie.

Why are you lying Spider?

I thought Christians weren't supposed to bear false witness against their brothers?

You spew this personal garbage knowing full well that it's lies.

Shame be on you brother.

No, not at all. I know that many people have objections to the Bible and have read it. I suppose I exaggerated when I made my first post, there are surely many Jews and Muslims and others who have read the Bible and haven't become Christians. That was really a tertiary point of my post, but whatever.

My implication is that you might not have read the Bible and I wanted to test your knowledge. My implication is that you might not have understood the Bible and therefore wouldn't be "Right thinking" (you can't be right thinking if you start with wrong information). I guess you are trying to read my mind, but you aren't doing a good job. I asked politely if you would share your objections with me, if you don't want me, cool. Gives me more time to do the things I enjoy other than discuss religion.

The truth is that you don't know me and shouldn't assume to know what I would think.