I say that they do not.

The idea that you have "been given the gift of "free will" by god" is bogus because it is the current concept of a creator god who demands obedience or else that makes it crystal clear that he does not condone or give freedom or "free will" to anyone.

On the contrary, your creator god seeks to place you in bondage and servitude to him whether it be Jehovah, Satan, Jesus, Allah, or who ever.

The Christian God demands that "The wages of sin is death."
He also claims that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of god."

Therefore all are condemned to die.

If you believe this, then it shows you the reason why you have been convinced that you need a savior. This savior is saving you from the condemnation of and by your very own creator who is supposed to be your loving father.

And yet, Christians will tell you that Jesus, the savior is God. How can the "savior" be the same person as the one who has condemned you?

These are logical and legitimate questions.

You have heard and probably believe that "free will" involves the choice to follow Jesus or not. That's it. NO other options.

That is not what the Will is at all. The Will is the power of self direction and it is inherent in all living conscious things. No creator god can take that from you or claim to have given it to you.

A creator god can and will try to convince you that your choice is limited. He will tell you that you can choose to be saved and serve him or you can serve in Hell and die.

Some choice Huh?

JB

Religion does not... (to much would interfere with the collection plate).

God does (growth happens not without choices).

Which one would you rather be a part of?

God is free and all things are part of that consciousness.

All that manifest from that inherit freedom and the will for they are part of that.

The will is always free and it is inherent, not 'given or taken away.'

Thats the way I see and feel it.

I've found a nice couple to worship. They are a Goddess and God of genuine love and affection.

The only thing that they have suggested is to harm no one. And they didn't even say it threateningly.

I guess they respect me enough to trust that I will accept their wisdom without any need to threaten me.

I supposed their desire that I harm no one could be viewed as a restriction on my 'free will'. However, for me it's not a restriction at all since I have no desire to harm anyone. Therefore I don't see this as a restriction on my own personal 'free will' simply because their request is fully compatible with what I already 'will'. In other words, their request of me is already in accordance with my 'free will'.

There could come a time when that might change. I might come upon an evil man who is raping a young girl with intent to murder her. In that situation I may very well remove his lifeforce from him. I would do that in an instant without a thought or regret.

How would my Goddess and God react to that? I have no clue. But for some reason I feel in the middle-middle of my heart that they would actually be proud of me, and approve of my action.

In the meantime I don't seek out those situations and I hope that I never stumble upon one. I just play in my little magickal forest and entertain anyone who comes to visit me.

1) "Religion" requires a being that controls all of creation.

2) "Free will" requires the ability to control one's own destiny.

The two are, by definition, mutually exclusive.

What is generally (and misatakenly) called "free will" by religionists is not truly free will. At best, it could be called "limited will". You are given a limited number of options and only allowed to choose from those limited options. This is not "free" at all. It is, in fact, very restricted will.

So true.

once again the logic and the reasoning are quite perfect.
However, once again all the perfection in the logic and reasoning falls apart because everything starts with a fallacy: "God condemns you."
There is something call natural law which is imprinted in the human soul this the moral code which allows man to decide between good and evil (free will).
This natural law comes into action regardless of religions just because our soul is created on the image and likeness of God.
Since man has the capacity to decide his behavior based upon this intrinsic natural law when man decides to go against it, is when man condemns himself.
Ergo, it follows that God does not condemn man, man condemns himself.

TLW

That's a very interesting view Miguel, but is it truly supported by biblical scripture?

I personally don't feel that it is.

The Bible proclaims that all men are sinners in several places (although Jesus himself is quoted as have suggested the contrary).

But the very idea that men can choose their own fate appears to be contrary to claim of the fall of man from grace through Adam.

According to the Bible man has not choice but to sin. The only choice he is given is to grovel for forgiveness for having sinned.

But that's an irony right there because now we have man groveling for forgiveness for something he supposedly has no choice or control over.

The Bible shot itself in the foot when it proclaimed that all men are sinners and all have fallen from the grace of God.

With that very proclaimation they have taken the choice to sin away from man. They have proclaimed that all men are sinners whether they choose to be or not.

So according to the Bible the choice isn't about a choice of whether or not to sin at all.

In fact, I tell Chrisitians all the time that I have chosen not to sin and therefore I have indeed chosen to be a righteous person.

They completely denounce that as being impossible. They say that all men have sinned and I'm no exception. And they don't seem to be concerned with my choices regarding sin, but instead they are totally obcessed with my choice to accept Jesus Christ as my savior.

So according to them men have no choice in the matter of sin.

The only choice they have is to convert to Christianity and appease the Christians.

I don't see how anyone can't see that this religion is an unscrupulous brainwashing technique invented by mankind to lay a guilt trip on people to try to get them to worship a particular religion (not God at all).

God is secondary to the religion.

The religion doesn't care about God at all. All it cares about is forcing its dogma down the throats of all other men, and before truly decent men created a separatation of Church and State and made laws forbiding the arbitary murdering of innocent people those religious people were indeed mass murdering anyone who didn't worship their religion.

How anyone cannot see that this religion is not of God is beyond me.

It's clearly the evil demagogurey of very cruel and heartless men.

Sorry Miguel, but there's just no excuse for it. God can't possible align himself with such a hateful religion.

If God had inspired the Bible he would have been totally irresponsible for not having blown the whistle long ago and stopping the atrocities that had been carried out in his name.

To simple sit back and allow those atrocieties to be carried out in his name would be a message that he approves of them.

But if God approves of murdering non-believers then it isn't much of a God.

Not according to what many Christians have stated.

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

"The wages of sin is death." So commanded God.

Hence all are condemned to death and are in need of a savior.

If I have been told anything at all by Christians it is that everyone is a sinner and that everyone needs to be saved and the no one is without sin.

This is the assumption of course.

So we are already sinners. Our only choice is to do more sinning... and to purposely live a life of more and more sin. But even if we do not purposely sin, we are still labeled sinners.

Is your religion any different?

JB

James:
First of all, all what I write is based on the Bible and my interpretation goes according to the Catholic Church.
Second of all, i never dondemn anybody. I always say that people can believe in flying pigs if they want to. So my friend if you are happy the way you are, I'm also happy.
Third of all, your interpretations in what the Bible say are really coming from a fundies background.

no, anythings there are guidelines there is no free will.

Have I call you or anybody here a sinner?
sin and evil are concepts which are real but I apply it to myself.
There is the basic difference between me and most christians, I don't go around calling sinners others.
I have enough with mine. After all faith (not religion) is a matter between the individual and God.
What I do here is to show that christianity is not the view that fundies show.

I am assuming that you are a Christian LW.

I am addressing the doctrine of Christianity. I am not accusing you of "calling anyone a sinner" or addressing what you refer to as "fundies."

It does not matter if you "go around calling others sinners" or not. If you profess to be a believer in the Christian doctrine and if you believe in "sin" and if you believe that you need to be saved from your sins, then I am addressing that paticular doctrine, not your personal religious deviations from it.

Of course I am assuming that being Catholic is still being a Christian and that Catholics still believe in Jesus as their personal savior. Am I wrong? Has something changed?

Surely Catholics do not differ that much from the basic tenants of Christianity do they?

JB

no, there is not much a difference. Jesus Christ is my God, Lord, and Savior. Yes, I personally need to be saved by my Lord.
How does that affect you personally?
If it does not affect you, then what is the purpose of this thread.
You are above the slavery in which apparently christians are from your point of view.
Are you in some sort of crusade to save christians of this sort of slavery?
Probably, you may want to become in some sort of cyber savior of all these christian slaves.

Is it not your free will to choose religion or not?

The Bible makes these proclamations.

All you're saying it that you claim to be a "Christian" but you don't believe in the Bible.

There are actually quite many people who claim to be Christians who don't truly believe in the Bible at all.

They have been dubed "Designer Christians". They just make up their own ideas of what they'd like to believe and reject the Biblical doctrine all the while claiming to support it.

In fact, I once saw a study that showed that "Designer Christianity" is the fastest growing phenomenon today.

What it truly represents are people who are clinging to the idea of Jesus as their Savior, but who are basically rejecting all the negativity of the Bible.

This is actually quite respectable IMHO. These people are out to do the right thing, and they are rejecting the negative aspects of the religion in favor of promoting a more positive picture.

But the truth of the matter is that it doesn't agree with what the Bible actually states.

The Bible clearly states that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and that all men are sinners.

Like Jeannie pointed out. We have no choice in that. We are already condemned according to the Bible. Jesus is the only way to salvation at this point.

There are no choices. All that is left to do is grovel in guilt for the sins that we had no choice but to be burderned with.

This is truly an unscrupulous guilt trip designed by seriously heartless men to try to use guilt and shame to make people grovel before the authority of their churches.

The religion has nothing to do with any God. It's a very nasty dirty brainwashing trick of unscrupulous men.

And that makes me quite angry.

I'm sorry that so many people fell prey to such a nasty brainwashing scheme. It just lays totally unnecessary guilt trips on the decent honest people and does nothing to prevent the really nasty people from continuing to do bad things.

All you appear to be saying is that you claim to be a "Christian" and worship Christ, but you don't truly believe in the Bible because you don't accept its proclamation that all men are sinners.

The purpose of the thread is more of a discussion about "free will" than Christianity.

Since Christians are the ones always claiming that God gave us "free will" I am addressing that assertion and disagreeing with their idea that "free will" is a limited choice of whether or not to choose Jesus and follow Christianity or not.

That is NOT what free will is.

I am not on some crusade to save Christians from their chosen servitude to their Lord and master for eternity. That is their choice.

I am on a crusade to interject their spreading of false ideas about what "free will" is as it relates to choosing to follow Jesus or not.

That is UNTRUTH about the WILL.

It rings loud and clear as untruth. The will is inherent in all consciousness and cannot be given or taken away by any lessor creator god.

jB

Invisible,

Yes it is, and I choose not to involve myself with any religion. But that choice is not the whole of what "free will" is.

It does not end there.

Once a person does chose to follow a particular Master or religion, they are then agreeing to agree with and follow its doctrine and they are agreeing to follow its rules or commandments.

They have sold their soul or given it away for the promise of heaven or everlasting life.

Some really fanatic Christians have found not just ten commandments but hundreds of them within the pages of the Bible.

Not only that, they believe that to disobey these commandments is a sin with the punishment of death. But they never fear, because they believe they have a savior who has forgiven them all of their sins even the ones they have not committed yet.

Do they have free will? They certainly say and think they do, and they believe that they are saved and forgiven. But they are so stifled from following their hearts for fear that what they want is not what God has planned for them.

They are lead around by what they think God would want them to do and be and they have lost touch with what they really want to do and be.

They cannot be true to themselves and their own desires because they have given their lives to their Lord and Master.

The seriousness of all of this often destroys creativity and it definitely destroys the feeling of freedom as they are always second guessing themselves and their true desires, fearing that they will be lead into sin.

They are in bondage and that bondage is all in their own mind. They are not free but they convince themselves that they are.

Freedom is of paramount importance to soul and to God. Prime Source wants you to be free and wants you to have what ever you desire. You have the power to have what ever you desire through the creative techniques of the law of attraction and there are no limits to what you can have or accomplish except those that you place upon yourself.

But every day people give over their lives to someone else and follow the authority of anyone who will tell them what to do and how to think.

The challenge of life is to accept responsibility for you own life and to think for yourself. But if you are not up to that there are many Masters who will take you under their wings and steal your power and tell you what to do and think.

JB

The fallacy in the above is contained withing the line ' There is something call natural law which is imprinted in the human soul this the moral code which allows man to decide between good and evil (free will).'

Such is not the case by your own book.

Until the first people aware of god chose to eat of the forbidden fruit evil did not exist in the eyes and hearts of mankind... so saith your book.

DIE? no! But life in hell for all eternity, in bondage and in punishment. Guess oil and water, or water and fire, just don't mix in heaven iether. lol and oil and fire is so explosive, lol.