Topic: Howard Stern exposes the Obama cult
pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 12:46 PM


This doesn't prove anything. On the Republican side, you've got people who are voting because they think Sarah Palin's hot, or that Obama's a terrorist, or because they've heard that McCain's a maverick. There are also a lot of people on either side who have very good reasons for voting the way they do. Videos are easily manipulated, and we're talking about Howard Stern here...obviously going for sensationalism and comedic effect. Anybody who made an intelligent response would have been edited out.

EEk... Howard Stern only did what others have before him.

I watched a group of people answer with names of people they thought associated with pictures they were shown..

Judge Judy was correctly identified by 100% of the persons asked.
Bush was identified by about 60% of the persons asked.
Obama by about 50%.
Mccain by about 50%.
Sara Palin by only about 40%.
Biden (get this) was misidentified by nearly all as 'mccain'.

Not a single person in the group knew anything about the actual issues when asked. NOT A ONE.

Yet that would be the majority of people we have voting in our current campaigns.

I personally asked a woman in my neigborhood who she was voting for and the answer shocked me. She intends to vote the 'straight Republican ticket' as she has 'since I was old enough to vote'...

when I asked her who Obama was she did not even know the name... Nor did she know the Vice Pres canditate was a female.





Yeah, a week ago I took my mom to the store and she saw a magazine and asked me who Sarah Palin is...and she's voting Republican. On another mag, she misidentified McCain as one of his sons. I don't know if it's a majority, but a lot of people have no idea what's going on, never have, and maybe never will.

I think that schools should be educating people on how to think critically, look through propaganda, and understand the issues of a political campaign. That might help the problem a little bit, but it's never going to go away, and it's not just one party that has the issue.

warmachine's photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:16 PM




I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.


I'm sorry, but that seems a bit vague. I can say Dr.Paul was right on the war and I can provide you the video from C-Span where he got up and slammed everyone who was beating the drums for war.

How was he right on the war, show me how he voted. I disagree that health care is a right, if it was, then the founders would have stuck it in the Constitution somewhere. Is having a home a right? How about access to a meal?

When it comes to his approach, I've not seen anything other than spend money we don't have, would you care to clarify that?

Actually, both McCain and Obama are wrong on their tax policies, show me the law that states the American people are responsible to pay the IRS, also I'd like to see evidence that the money the IRS collects is going anywhere but the Federal Reserves deep pockets. The tax system is unconstitutional, we are being taxed and as the bailout proves, without representation.
I do agree with his infrastructure/energy policies, it's just not something that should be that hard to do, shoot, Carter had solar panels on the White House and Reagan took them down.

If when you say enviromental issues, you mean Global warming, don't worry, you're about to see what the globalists wanted, they got their Carbon tax in the bailout. If you mean actual conservation, I'm with that.

Neither he nor McCain are right about education, the public school system isn't a joke, it's a brainwashing prison camp. Let me know when they start teaching Life Applicable math and Civics or when they can teach those seniors to read above a d ick and jane book.

All that just to ask for some clarification!

pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:20 PM

show me the law that states the American people are responsible to pay the IRS,


...the 16th amendment?

AdventureBegins's photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:37 PM




I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!

no photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:41 PM
Edited by Unknow on Mon 10/20/08 01:50 PM





I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!
I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.
I got news for you you already are!!!!! To me the end result wouldnt be as bad if they had access to healthcare from the start..One way or another you will pay!!..JMO

pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:41 PM





I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!


So all medical conditions are preventable?

I guess I should tell my genetic disorders that they don't actually exist.

Why isn't health care a right? What, for you, IS a right?

MirrorMirror's photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:44 PM





I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!
drinks As usual, a very well thought out post, Adventure.drinksIts hard to argue with a guy that actually uses his brain (even though I dont always agree with ya).drinks

AdventureBegins's photo
Mon 10/20/08 01:56 PM






I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!


So all medical conditions are preventable?

I guess I should tell my genetic disorders that they don't actually exist.

Why isn't health care a right? What, for you, IS a right?


Life, liberty and the PERSUIT of happiness.
Free speach.
Freedom to worship as I see fit.
Freedom to make mistakes (and fix them).
Freedom to defend any of the above. Which brings up freedom from oppression (as I will defend my other rights).

What exactally is the percentage of people using the health care system that has a genetic disorder or some other REAL problem vs those that have never attempted to prevent the condition they are now facing?
You allso have free speach... Please don't use it to put words in my mouth or assume my view is that limited... One can only write upon a single subject at a time I have no problems helping with true medical needs (that is why I donate... when I can and I know where it is going).

warmachine's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:03 PM


show me the law that states the American people are responsible to pay the IRS,


...the 16th amendment?


Never ratified. In fact, when people who don't pay go the right routes, they always win in court. Go ask Wesley Snipes.

when it comes to the Income tax: the US Constitution gives Congress the power to “lay and collect taxes” on incomes.

16th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Keep in mind: this amendment give the power to Congress, but a law must be created to enforce it. Without a law, there can be no legal enforcement.

The Constitution itself is not legislation. It is ‘the law of the land’ - the appropriation of powers to the government, and the protection of the rights of the people. It gives the power to make law. The 16th Amendment itself does not enforce anything.

Most laws are created to say what you cannot do. Some laws also state what you are obligated to do. But when it comes to the Income Tax, the US Congress has never used their power to create a law that requires that you must pay a tax or that you are liable for doing so. (And nor should they!)

And to add to the holes in this illegal enforcement of tax, the IRS tax code itself even says that the federal income tax is a “voluntary” tax - hence, when you pay these taxes you are doing so by consent, not obligation.

Go watch this movie: America Freedom to Fascism.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

If you believe in the Emancipation Proclamation, then you should realize that the IRS system is in opposition to that. It creates the implied ownership of the Government over it's people. They get first dibs at the fruits of our labor.

The many other taxes paid fund all of the aspects of America that the federal government provides (or are at least meant to). The sole purpose of the income tax is to pay the interest on the loans the federal government takes from the ‘Federal Reserve’.

Fact: The Federal Reserve Act and the 16th Amendment were enacted in the same year: 1913.

In other words, it is used to transfer wealth from the people - to the private bankers that control our financial system. And the more the government spends, the more they’ll need to take!

William J. Benson, author of a two-volume investigative report on the ratification of the 16th Amendment entitled "The Law That Never Was."

Benson was a special agent with the Illinois Department of Revenue for 10 years. He was fired after uncovering evidence of corruption in the agency. It took more than six years to get the case into a federal court, but the jury awarded him "a large amount" he says, for violations of his First Amendment rights.

What followed his victory is an even more amazing story. Benson delved into the history of the federal income tax-- the granddaddy of the state income taxes-- and became suspicious. He noted irregularities in the ratification of the 16th Amendment and pressed on in his research.

That research took him to the archives in the state capitals of each of the 48 states that were part of the United States in 1913, when the 16th Amendment was passed by the Congress. The Constitution requires ratification of amendments by three-fourths of the states, and Benson's meticulous research says this was never properly done. Secretary of State Philander Knox declared the amendment ratified on the basis of a report from his solicitor, but that report was "fraudulent," says Benson.

In each state archive, Benson uncovered the records of that state's consideration of the proposed amendment. To present a legally acceptable case "you must have documents that are notarized and certified," he explains. "Otherwise they're considered hearsay in court."

All total, Benson collected 17,000 documents, all properly notarized and certified by officials of the states. And what they reveal is shocking.

The ratification required by at least 36 states-- three-fourths of the 48 states then in existence-- has to be identical to the amendment passed by Congress. Benson cites federal documents affirming that for state approval to be acceptable, neither words nor punctuation can be changed. And the states may not violate their own state constitutions in ratifying the amendment.

Of the 48 states, here's the story:

----Eight states (Rhode Island, Utah, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Kentucky, Florida, Virginia and Pennsylvania) did not approve or ratify the amendment.

----Texas and Louisiana were forbidden by their own state constitutions to empower the federal government to tax.

----Vermont and Massachusetts rejected the amendment with a recorded voice count, and only later declared it passed without a recorded vote after the amendment was declared ratified by Knox.

----Tennessee, Ohio, Mississippi, California and Washington violated their state constitutions in their ratification procedures.

----Minnesota did not send any copy of its resolution to Knox, let alone a signed and sealed one, as required.

----And Oklahoma, Georgia and Illinois made unacceptable changes in wording. (Some of the above states also made such changes, in addition to their other unacceptable procedures.)

Take 48 states, deduct these 21, and you have proper ratification by only 27 states-- far less than the required 36.


pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:05 PM
Edited by pingpong on Mon 10/20/08 02:21 PM


Life, liberty and the PERSUIT of happiness.
Free speach.
Freedom to worship as I see fit.
Freedom to make mistakes (and fix them).
Freedom to defend any of the above. Which brings up freedom from oppression (as I will defend my other rights).

What exactally is the percentage of people using the health care system that has a genetic disorder or some other REAL problem vs those that have never attempted to prevent the condition they are now facing?
You allso have free speach... Please don't use it to put words in my mouth or assume my view is that limited... One can only write upon a single subject at a time I have no problems helping with true medical needs (that is why I donate... when I can and I know where it is going).


What's the percentage? I don't know. What's the percentage of people who have preventable conditions? What's the percentage of people who have preventable conditions that could have been prevented by medical care they didn't have access to? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be implying that a majority of people who need health care need it because they have eaten themselves to a heart attack or smoked themselves into lung cancer, and if that is what you meant to say, then I'm wondering what your proof is of that.

As for how you define a human right, it's right there--LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If you have breast cancer and can't get treated, how do you have the freedom to live that is enumerated in the constitution?

mnhiker's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:11 PM

I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


Isn't there also a cult of personality for Sarah Palin?

People back her because she speaks against Obama, or because she's a hockey mom, or because she kept her child, even though it has Down's Syndrome, or a number of reasons that have nothing to do with being a VP or President if anything should happen to John McCain due to health reasons.

Not much reason for supporting a VP candidate.

no photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:20 PM







I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!


So all medical conditions are preventable?

I guess I should tell my genetic disorders that they don't actually exist.

Why isn't health care a right? What, for you, IS a right?


Life, liberty and the PERSUIT of happiness.
Free speach.
Freedom to worship as I see fit.
Freedom to make mistakes (and fix them).
Freedom to defend any of the above. Which brings up freedom from oppression (as I will defend my other rights).

What exactally is the percentage of people using the health care system that has a genetic disorder or some other REAL problem vs those that have never attempted to prevent the condition they are now facing?
You allso have free speach... Please don't use it to put words in my mouth or assume my view is that limited... One can only write upon a single subject at a time I have no problems helping with true medical needs (that is why I donate... when I can and I know where it is going).
Like I said in my previous post..You are paying for it now..To me if people had access to healthcare all along the end result would not be as costly..Which you are paying for now..

Dragoness's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:22 PM
Edited by Dragoness on Mon 10/20/08 02:25 PM







I think it blows a hole in the fact that alot of people don't seem to actually know what Obama stands for. They're just voting in a form of the Cult of Personality.

Thanks Drivin' I always try to be thought provoking...if nothing else.


I saw him speak in St. Louis Saturday. I went to see him to understand more about him. About 100,000 people were listening with me.

Every time I see him speak and read what he has to offer, the more that I like him.




Okay, why?


He was right on the war in Iraq. He is right that all Americans deserve access to health care and right in his pragmatic approach to meeting that goal. He is right on tax policy, infrastructure investment, energy policy and environmental issues. He is right about what he wants to do with education.

That's why.

Beg to differ. Tax policies? The man hasn't got a clue... DO THE MATH... You can not support even ONE of his proposals on those tax policies... diminishing returns leading to failing systems leading to diminishing returns. Our economy will eat itself faster then it allready is. (Our economy is correcting itself because it's pricing structure is FALSE and inflated... It will continue to correct itself until it reaches equilibrium NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOES NOT DO).

Infrastructure Investment? Ain't that a local thing... How is big government going to effect that without making a few contractors very rich and get nothing done.

Energy and Environmental issues... Buzz words for 'lets make oil cost more so we can squeeze more money out of the poor americans by making them think the alternative is cheaper'

Health care is NOT a right... It is something you strive for and work and earn... It would be nice to see some of the prices come down to what is REAL but GOVERNMENT does not control that.

I for one do not want my taxes paying for the medical treatments of a person that has NEVER CARED FOR THEMSELVES and now needs health care cause they smoked their lungs to ashes, gorged themeselves to a heart condition, never exercised to prevent this and now expect ME to pay for it.

PAHHHHHH!


So all medical conditions are preventable?

I guess I should tell my genetic disorders that they don't actually exist.

Why isn't health care a right? What, for you, IS a right?


Life, liberty and the PERSUIT of happiness.
Free speach.
Freedom to worship as I see fit.
Freedom to make mistakes (and fix them).
Freedom to defend any of the above. Which brings up freedom from oppression (as I will defend my other rights).

What exactally is the percentage of people using the health care system that has a genetic disorder or some other REAL problem vs those that have never attempted to prevent the condition they are now facing?
You allso have free speach... Please don't use it to put words in my mouth or assume my view is that limited... One can only write upon a single subject at a time I have no problems helping with true medical needs (that is why I donate... when I can and I know where it is going).


Let me give you a little clue about donations. I have MS and I contacted the MS society for help during my attack. I recieved alot of information from them, very helpful, but when it came down to say getting my medicine which cost 6000.00 dollars per three months, they did not help me but referred me to NORD. The money donated goes to researching the new medicines they are coming up with but if you opt for a natural type treatment, they will not even let you post your sucesses with the natural treatments in their monthly magazine to help others.

Those donations do not do what is REALLY needed which is healthcare, pretentative and ongoing. Those donations make the fat cats in the pharmacutical companies very rich indeed.

My medicare only covers a small amount of my care and almost none of my preventative care.

Healthcare is a big big issue in this country for alot of people.

warmachine's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:29 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it used to be that the Churchs and other charitables took care of healthcare, no one was turned away.

Then the Government got involved...

pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:32 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it used to be that the Churchs and other charitables took care of healthcare, no one was turned away.

Then the Government got involved...



Where's the evidence of this? When was 'used to be'?

warmachine's photo
Mon 10/20/08 02:54 PM


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it used to be that the Churchs and other charitables took care of healthcare, no one was turned away.

Then the Government got involved...



Where's the evidence of this? When was 'used to be'?



Healing the Health-Care System
Lawrence D. Wilson, M.D., December 2001


HISTORY CAN OFTEN yield insights into our dilemmas. Health care is no exception. The Founders of America envisioned a health-care system based on principles of the dignity and liberty of every person. They were:

1. A right to work. England’s system of guilds and licenses kept many people out of the healing arts. America would allow anyone to become a doctor or to open a healing school or clinic.

2. A right to choice. America would permit a variety of healers and healing modalities. Benjamin Rush, physician to the Continental Army and a signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote, “To restrict the practice of medicine to only one class of men would constitute the Bastille of medicine.”

3. A limited role of government to protect the right to contract and to prevent fraud. Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution reads, “No state shall ... pass any ... law impairing the obligation of contracts.” Laws against fraud were to protect the health consumer. The government was not to play favorites and could not pay for, restrict, or subsidize any group or healing method.



Free-market care
A few licensing laws existing at the time of the Revolution were soon repealed. The three principles outlined above elevated America in the 19th century to the healthiest nation on earth, although the American people were mainly poor immigrants. Innovation produced many new systems of healing. However, if you wanted to visit a witch doctor, it was your right.

Herbalists, nature-cure therapists, hydrotherapists, nutritionists, osteopaths, allopaths, homeopaths, and eclectic practitioners offered services. There were a variety of healing schools and clinics. No healing modality or group of healers had a legal advantage over the others. Whoever helped people the most prospered.

The large number of practitioners kept prices down and made health care very accessible to the population. There was no need for insurance. Organizations similar to consumers’ unions sprang up to inform people about the best doctors and the best methods of treatments. Certifying groups set standards for quality and training.

Many people used private doctors. Others joined associations such as the Lions Club or the Order of Elks. They paid annual dues and their families were taken care of if they became ill or unable to work. Often these societies hired doctors called “lodge doctors” to care for their members. Government welfare later drove these societies out of the health-care business.

Others in early America formed community health associations. These were cooperatives that hired doctors to take care of their members. A variety of church-supported, community-supported, and other private charities served those unable to pay for health care.



The winds of change
Doctors at this time didn’t make much money. This angered one group — the allopaths, or drug doctors. In 1847, they formed the American Medical Association (AMA). A report submitted at the AMA convention in 1847 was unusually candid:
The very large number of physicians in the United States has frequently been the subject of remark.... No wonder that the merest pittance in the way of remuneration is scantily doled out even to the most industrious in our ranks.
The AMA decided to increase their members’ income by outlawing their competition. This is a standard way to raise prices, for it reduces the supply of a commodity. They would lobby the government for licensing laws. The laws would limit the number of doctors. In their excellent volume on American health care, Patient Power: Solving America’s Health-Care Crisis (Cato Institute, 1992), John C. Goodman and Gerald L. Musgrave wrote,
Virtually every law restricting the practice of medicine in America has been enacted not on the crest of public demand, but due to intense pressure from the political representatives of physicians.
The AMA’s efforts culminated in 1910 when Abraham Flexner, a former school director and not a physician, was commissioned by the Carnegie Foundation to evaluate medical schools. He was the brother of Simon Flexner, head of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research. Working closely with the AMA, he completed a survey of medical schools that was practically a carbon copy of a report the AMA had done several years before. The report found most schools to be “substandard.”

Flexner and his AMA friends convinced Congress that to “improve health care,” most healing schools should be closed. They also recommended licensing of doctors and hospitals and government subsidies to drug-medicine schools and drug research.

Because of heavy lobbying and because people were frightened into thinking they needed licensing, these measures were adopted by Congress and state legislatures between 1900 and 1920. The medical-licensing laws violated Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution. To circumvent the Constitution, they invoked another legal doctrine — the “police powers” of the state.

The new laws caused the number of medical schools to fall from 140 in 1900 to 77 in 1940. The closings meant fewer physicians were trained. Schools either were shut down or failed because their graduates could no longer get a license. All schools that accepted women were closed. All but two schools that trained blacks were closed. Only the drug-medicine schools remained.

This was the end of the right to work, the end of the right to choose, and the end of an impartial attitude by the government. A monopoly drug-medicine cartel replaced freedom of choice in health care.

Later, chiropractors, physical therapists, psychologists, and others would push through their own licensing laws, joining the horrendous system that persecuted them for so many years.

Interestingly, the medical monopoly was imposed about the same time as the FDA (1906) and the IRS and Federal Reserve System (1913).



From bad to worse
Costs began to rise because of a doctor shortage, the outlawing of less-costly healing methods, and monopoly laws. For instance, in Mexico one can walk into a laboratory and have one’s cholesterol level checked. In America, one needs a doctor’s permission to go to a laboratory and a second doctor visit to obtain the result. A $10 test can cost you $100.

In the 1930s, a group of doctors started the first modern health-insurance company — Blue Cross and Blue Shield — as a way to keep their hospitals full. By the 1960s, pressure was brought on the government to do something about rising costs. Few people remembered it was government intervention (licensing laws) that created the mess in the first place.

In response, Congress enacted Medicare and Medicaid around 1967. They were hailed as the mark of an advanced and compassionate nation. However, the official U.S. government health statistics show that costs exploded after 1967, and this continues today.

A physician who worked in an emergency room at that time told me that when Medicare and Medicaid passed, prices tripled overnight. Essentially, the government told hospitals and doctors to charge whatever they wished and the government would pay for it.

Not only did doctors raise their prices dramatically, patient demand for services skyrocketed with the new “free” health system. Market controls and common sense were removed, replaced by an Alice-in-Wonderland “free-lunch” mentality. Exploding demand for services further drove up prices.

Health-care costs in America doubled between the 1960s and the early 1970s from about $35 billion to about $70 billion. This obviously couldn’t continue indefinitely. Instead of repealing the government programs that were causing the mess, in 1983 Congress changed Medicare, adopting what are called DRGs or diagnostic-related groups. This replaced the cost-plus system with fixed reimbursement for different categories of illness. Since then, many more restrictions, rules, and penalties have been added to rein in the costs.

None of the rules have stopped the spiraling costs. How can they, when the cartel is still firmly in control, there is little competition and few market forces at work, and responsibility for health care remains shifted from the individual to the government? These factors guarantee failure. The authors of the book Why We Spend Too Much on Health Care (1992) summarized it well when they wrote, “Government’s entry into the health care market dramatically expanded the volume, intensity and price of health care.”

Also to control costs, Edward Kennedy sponsored the HMO Act of 1973. The idea was to herd everyone into “managed care.” The law forced employers with more than 25 workers to offer an HMO option and offered $373 million in subsidies to start HMOs.

HMOs and other managed-care options have failed to control costs for the same reasons. The medical monopoly remains intact, and consumers don’t control their health care. Now Kennedy wants a patient’s bill of rights to fix the system. It won’t work either, but it will destroy the privacy of medical records.

It is interesting to note that our senators and congressmen are not subject to the health-care laws they pass for us. They have their own health-care system. The Federal Employees Health Benefits Program is wonderful, with more than 20 choices of health-care plans.

Another consequence of the government-sponsored monopoly is the overuse of dangerous surgery and drugs, instead of safer methods. In a landmark article, the Journal of the American Medical Association recently revealed that medical mistakes are now the third leading cause of death in America, just behind cancer and heart disease. Aside from the human cost, malpractice costs are enormous.

Many people believe the real intent of the patient’s bill of rights is to destroy the HMOs so that Americans will believe they have no choice but to adopt socialized medicine. Before discussing a better solution, let’s examine socialized medicine.



Socialized medicine
The first socialized medical system began in Germany on January 1, 1884 under Kaiser William I. Its purpose was to displace the ideas of the Enlightenment and reinvigorate support of the monarchy by forcing everyone into one state-controlled system of medical care. The program spread to other European nations in the early 20th century. It was accelerated and further centralized by Adolf Hitler. As Melchior Palyi explained,
The ill-famed Dr. Ley, boss of the Nazi labor front, did not fail to see that the social insurance system could be used for Nazi politics as a means of popular demagoguery, as a bastion of bureaucratic power, [and] as an instrument of regimentation.
Many people say to me, “Universal free health care sounds pretty good.” I ask, “Do you really think it is free? Do you really think it will be universal?” That is never how it works. Just ask any Canadian or Englishman. Canadians pay an extra 15 percent tax on everything they buy, and their system is still failing. The right to free health care becomes the right to stand in line for what the government decides to give you.

Socialized medical systems require large, costly bureaucracies. Government administration is five to ten times the cost of private-sector administration. Special interests always infiltrate the bureaucracy, so it rapidly becomes corrupt. Doctors find ways to defraud the system, so massive paperwork is required in an attempt to control fraud.

They also require high taxes. Including time spent and fees for lawyers, accountants, and tax preparers, individuals and companies in America spend more to comply with the tax laws than the income tax actually collects. That does not sound like an efficient system. Taxes, of course, are collected under the threat of force. That hardly sounds like a compassionate system.

While the IRS code and regulations are only some 10,000 pages, the Medicare law is 110,000 pages. Socialized medicine would be a jumbo form of Medicare. Are you sure that is what you want? Do you really think a Washington bureaucrat knows better than you do which healing modality and how much care is best for you? When you go to the doctor, do you really want to pay for a swarm of paper-pushers to monitor every aspect of the transaction?

I think the Germans had it right. Socialized medicine is not about health. It is a government power grab to control a trillion-dollar industry and a critical area of people’s lives. It would also further entrench the drug monopoly, ensuring poor quality care and high prices. It appears compassionate, but it is actually akin to the compassion of a Mafia boss. Driving costs through the roof, confiscating the money at gunpoint through taxes to pay for it, and establishing a wasteful system do not seem compassionate, charitable, or “advanced.”



Dismantling and repealing
The alternative to socialized medicine is to dismantle the monopoly. When special interests pass laws that do not serve the public, eventually they must be repealed. America did this with the trucking industry, the phones, the airlines, and many others.

Getting rid of the medical-licensing laws, HMO laws, and government subsidies to medical schools and drug research would terrify the monopolists but it would return the health system to health and sanity. Competition would increase, prices would drop, insurance might not even be necessary, and access to care would increase.

Lower-cost alternative health-care methods, now shut out of mainstream medicine, would be given a chance. In case replacing mandatory licensing with private certification seems odd to you, here is what Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman wrote,

I am persuaded that licensure has reduced both the quantity and quality of medical practice.... It has reduced the opportunities for people to become physicians, it has forced the public to pay more for less satisfactory service, and it has retarded technological development.... I conclude that licensure should be eliminated as a requirement for the practice of medicine.
Lori B. Andrews, professor of law and Norman and Edna Freehling Scholar, Chicago-Kent College of Law, explained,
Licensing has served to channel the development of health care services by granting an exclusive privilege and high status to practitioners relying on a particular approach to health care, a disease-oriented intrusive approach rather than a preventive approach.... By granting a monopoly to a particular approach to health care, the licensing laws may serve to assure an ineffective health care system.
I was trained within the monopoly system. I left it for the alternative health field because orthodox methods were unable to help my family with a cancer problem. Thus I have worked on both sides. Americans have been thoroughly misled about their medical-care system. Slowly, the same people are urging you to accept an inferior government-controlled system.

“Control” is the key word. The choice is whether to deregulate and return to a consumer-controlled health system or drift into a totalitarian system that isn’t working well anywhere in the world. Health-care goods are a commodity like any other. They will be rationed. Either you will control how to spend your health dollars, or the bureaucrats will decide for you.

The choice is yours. But make no mistake about it: your health and maybe even your life turn on it.


pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 03:00 PM
That article contains zero citations. Am I supposed to take that guy's word for it?

no photo
Mon 10/20/08 03:06 PM



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it used to be that the Churchs and other charitables took care of healthcare, no one was turned away.

Then the Government got involved...



Where's the evidence of this? When was 'used to be'?



Healing the Health-Care System
Lawrence D. Wilson, M.D., December 2001


HISTORY CAN OFTEN yield insights into our dilemmas. Health care is no exception. The Founders of America envisioned a health-care system based on principles of the dignity and liberty of every person. They were:

1. A right to work. England’s system of guilds and licenses kept many people out of the healing arts. America would allow anyone to become a doctor or to open a healing school or clinic.

2. A right to choice. America would permit a variety of healers and healing modalities. Benjamin Rush, physician to the Continental Army and a signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote, “To restrict the practice of medicine to only one class of men would constitute the Bastille of medicine.”

3. A limited role of government to protect the right to contract and to prevent fraud. Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution reads, “No state shall ... pass any ... law impairing the obligation of contracts.” Laws against fraud were to protect the health consumer. The government was not to play favorites and could not pay for, restrict, or subsidize any group or healing method.



Free-market care
A few licensing laws existing at the time of the Revolution were soon repealed. The three principles outlined above elevated America in the 19th century to the healthiest nation on earth, although the American people were mainly poor immigrants. Innovation produced many new systems of healing. However, if you wanted to visit a witch doctor, it was your right.

Herbalists, nature-cure therapists, hydrotherapists, nutritionists, osteopaths, allopaths, homeopaths, and eclectic practitioners offered services. There were a variety of healing schools and clinics. No healing modality or group of healers had a legal advantage over the others. Whoever helped people the most prospered.

The large number of practitioners kept prices down and made health care very accessible to the population. There was no need for insurance. Organizations similar to consumers’ unions sprang up to inform people about the best doctors and the best methods of treatments. Certifying groups set standards for quality and training.

Many people used private doctors. Others joined associations such as the Lions Club or the Order of Elks. They paid annual dues and their families were taken care of if they became ill or unable to work. Often these societies hired doctors called “lodge doctors” to care for their members. Government welfare later drove these societies out of the health-care business.

Others in early America formed community health associations. These were cooperatives that hired doctors to take care of their members. A variety of church-supported, community-supported, and other private charities served those unable to pay for health care.



The winds of change
Doctors at this time didn’t make much money. This angered one group — the allopaths, or drug doctors. In 1847, they formed the American Medical Association (AMA). A report submitted at the AMA convention in 1847 was unusually candid:
The very large number of physicians in the United States has frequently been the subject of remark.... No wonder that the merest pittance in the way of remuneration is scantily doled out even to the most industrious in our ranks.
The AMA decided to increase their members’ income by outlawing their competition. This is a standard way to raise prices, for it reduces the supply of a commodity. They would lobby the government for licensing laws. The laws would limit the number of doctors. In their excellent volume on American health care, Patient Power: Solving America’s Health-Care Crisis (Cato Institute, 1992), John C. Goodman and Gerald L. Musgrave wrote,
Virtually every law restricting the practice of medicine in America has been enacted not on the crest of public demand, but due to intense pressure from the political representatives of physicians.
The AMA’s efforts culminated in 1910 when Abraham Flexner, a former school director and not a physician, was commissioned by the Carnegie Foundation to evaluate medical schools. He was the brother of Simon Flexner, head of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research. Working closely with the AMA, he completed a survey of medical schools that was practically a carbon copy of a report the AMA had done several years before. The report found most schools to be “substandard.”

Flexner and his AMA friends convinced Congress that to “improve health care,” most healing schools should be closed. They also recommended licensing of doctors and hospitals and government subsidies to drug-medicine schools and drug research.

Because of heavy lobbying and because people were frightened into thinking they needed licensing, these measures were adopted by Congress and state legislatures between 1900 and 1920. The medical-licensing laws violated Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution. To circumvent the Constitution, they invoked another legal doctrine — the “police powers” of the state.

The new laws caused the number of medical schools to fall from 140 in 1900 to 77 in 1940. The closings meant fewer physicians were trained. Schools either were shut down or failed because their graduates could no longer get a license. All schools that accepted women were closed. All but two schools that trained blacks were closed. Only the drug-medicine schools remained.

This was the end of the right to work, the end of the right to choose, and the end of an impartial attitude by the government. A monopoly drug-medicine cartel replaced freedom of choice in health care.

Later, chiropractors, physical therapists, psychologists, and others would push through their own licensing laws, joining the horrendous system that persecuted them for so many years.

Interestingly, the medical monopoly was imposed about the same time as the FDA (1906) and the IRS and Federal Reserve System (1913).



From bad to worse
Costs began to rise because of a doctor shortage, the outlawing of less-costly healing methods, and monopoly laws. For instance, in Mexico one can walk into a laboratory and have one’s cholesterol level checked. In America, one needs a doctor’s permission to go to a laboratory and a second doctor visit to obtain the result. A $10 test can cost you $100.

In the 1930s, a group of doctors started the first modern health-insurance company — Blue Cross and Blue Shield — as a way to keep their hospitals full. By the 1960s, pressure was brought on the government to do something about rising costs. Few people remembered it was government intervention (licensing laws) that created the mess in the first place.

In response, Congress enacted Medicare and Medicaid around 1967. They were hailed as the mark of an advanced and compassionate nation. However, the official U.S. government health statistics show that costs exploded after 1967, and this continues today.

A physician who worked in an emergency room at that time told me that when Medicare and Medicaid passed, prices tripled overnight. Essentially, the government told hospitals and doctors to charge whatever they wished and the government would pay for it.

Not only did doctors raise their prices dramatically, patient demand for services skyrocketed with the new “free” health system. Market controls and common sense were removed, replaced by an Alice-in-Wonderland “free-lunch” mentality. Exploding demand for services further drove up prices.

Health-care costs in America doubled between the 1960s and the early 1970s from about $35 billion to about $70 billion. This obviously couldn’t continue indefinitely. Instead of repealing the government programs that were causing the mess, in 1983 Congress changed Medicare, adopting what are called DRGs or diagnostic-related groups. This replaced the cost-plus system with fixed reimbursement for different categories of illness. Since then, many more restrictions, rules, and penalties have been added to rein in the costs.

None of the rules have stopped the spiraling costs. How can they, when the cartel is still firmly in control, there is little competition and few market forces at work, and responsibility for health care remains shifted from the individual to the government? These factors guarantee failure. The authors of the book Why We Spend Too Much on Health Care (1992) summarized it well when they wrote, “Government’s entry into the health care market dramatically expanded the volume, intensity and price of health care.”

Also to control costs, Edward Kennedy sponsored the HMO Act of 1973. The idea was to herd everyone into “managed care.” The law forced employers with more than 25 workers to offer an HMO option and offered $373 million in subsidies to start HMOs.

HMOs and other managed-care options have failed to control costs for the same reasons. The medical monopoly remains intact, and consumers don’t control their health care. Now Kennedy wants a patient’s bill of rights to fix the system. It won’t work either, but it will destroy the privacy of medical records.

It is interesting to note that our senators and congressmen are not subject to the health-care laws they pass for us. They have their own health-care system. The Federal Employees Health Benefits Program is wonderful, with more than 20 choices of health-care plans.

Another consequence of the government-sponsored monopoly is the overuse of dangerous surgery and drugs, instead of safer methods. In a landmark article, the Journal of the American Medical Association recently revealed that medical mistakes are now the third leading cause of death in America, just behind cancer and heart disease. Aside from the human cost, malpractice costs are enormous.

Many people believe the real intent of the patient’s bill of rights is to destroy the HMOs so that Americans will believe they have no choice but to adopt socialized medicine. Before discussing a better solution, let’s examine socialized medicine.



Socialized medicine
The first socialized medical system began in Germany on January 1, 1884 under Kaiser William I. Its purpose was to displace the ideas of the Enlightenment and reinvigorate support of the monarchy by forcing everyone into one state-controlled system of medical care. The program spread to other European nations in the early 20th century. It was accelerated and further centralized by Adolf Hitler. As Melchior Palyi explained,
The ill-famed Dr. Ley, boss of the Nazi labor front, did not fail to see that the social insurance system could be used for Nazi politics as a means of popular demagoguery, as a bastion of bureaucratic power, [and] as an instrument of regimentation.
Many people say to me, “Universal free health care sounds pretty good.” I ask, “Do you really think it is free? Do you really think it will be universal?” That is never how it works. Just ask any Canadian or Englishman. Canadians pay an extra 15 percent tax on everything they buy, and their system is still failing. The right to free health care becomes the right to stand in line for what the government decides to give you.

Socialized medical systems require large, costly bureaucracies. Government administration is five to ten times the cost of private-sector administration. Special interests always infiltrate the bureaucracy, so it rapidly becomes corrupt. Doctors find ways to defraud the system, so massive paperwork is required in an attempt to control fraud.

They also require high taxes. Including time spent and fees for lawyers, accountants, and tax preparers, individuals and companies in America spend more to comply with the tax laws than the income tax actually collects. That does not sound like an efficient system. Taxes, of course, are collected under the threat of force. That hardly sounds like a compassionate system.

While the IRS code and regulations are only some 10,000 pages, the Medicare law is 110,000 pages. Socialized medicine would be a jumbo form of Medicare. Are you sure that is what you want? Do you really think a Washington bureaucrat knows better than you do which healing modality and how much care is best for you? When you go to the doctor, do you really want to pay for a swarm of paper-pushers to monitor every aspect of the transaction?

I think the Germans had it right. Socialized medicine is not about health. It is a government power grab to control a trillion-dollar industry and a critical area of people’s lives. It would also further entrench the drug monopoly, ensuring poor quality care and high prices. It appears compassionate, but it is actually akin to the compassion of a Mafia boss. Driving costs through the roof, confiscating the money at gunpoint through taxes to pay for it, and establishing a wasteful system do not seem compassionate, charitable, or “advanced.”



Dismantling and repealing
The alternative to socialized medicine is to dismantle the monopoly. When special interests pass laws that do not serve the public, eventually they must be repealed. America did this with the trucking industry, the phones, the airlines, and many others.

Getting rid of the medical-licensing laws, HMO laws, and government subsidies to medical schools and drug research would terrify the monopolists but it would return the health system to health and sanity. Competition would increase, prices would drop, insurance might not even be necessary, and access to care would increase.

Lower-cost alternative health-care methods, now shut out of mainstream medicine, would be given a chance. In case replacing mandatory licensing with private certification seems odd to you, here is what Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman wrote,

I am persuaded that licensure has reduced both the quantity and quality of medical practice.... It has reduced the opportunities for people to become physicians, it has forced the public to pay more for less satisfactory service, and it has retarded technological development.... I conclude that licensure should be eliminated as a requirement for the practice of medicine.
Lori B. Andrews, professor of law and Norman and Edna Freehling Scholar, Chicago-Kent College of Law, explained,
Licensing has served to channel the development of health care services by granting an exclusive privilege and high status to practitioners relying on a particular approach to health care, a disease-oriented intrusive approach rather than a preventive approach.... By granting a monopoly to a particular approach to health care, the licensing laws may serve to assure an ineffective health care system.
I was trained within the monopoly system. I left it for the alternative health field because orthodox methods were unable to help my family with a cancer problem. Thus I have worked on both sides. Americans have been thoroughly misled about their medical-care system. Slowly, the same people are urging you to accept an inferior government-controlled system.

“Control” is the key word. The choice is whether to deregulate and return to a consumer-controlled health system or drift into a totalitarian system that isn’t working well anywhere in the world. Health-care goods are a commodity like any other. They will be rationed. Either you will control how to spend your health dollars, or the bureaucrats will decide for you.

The choice is yours. But make no mistake about it: your health and maybe even your life turn on it.


Good post war.I do not see either canidate going for totalitarian control of the health care system..What I see is we are already paying for the uninsured, higher premiums, taxes and costs.. I see it criminal for health care providers to charge inflated prices on the uninsured and give discounts to insurers..We are paying for the uninsured, so do you want to continue as we are or change it..Access to health care will make the end results less costly..JMO

warmachine's photo
Mon 10/20/08 03:09 PM

That article contains zero citations. Am I supposed to take that guy's word for it?


I believe you are mistaken. There is alot of citations in this article.

He cites Dr.Rush and the Constitution right off the bat.

He quotes the AMA's own documents, provides Ted Kennedy's HMO legislation, and even a Prof. of law, Lori Andrews.

Perhaps, rather than paint brushing the document I provided with such a broad stroke as to say that there were ZERO citations in it, you should get specific.

As far as the original issue, which was Nonprofit/Church ran healthcare, even Dr.Paul talked about how the Church ran things much better than government ever could and that he and some other Dr.'s he knew would routinely donate their time, free of charge, to give people healthcare.

If you don't believe Dr.Wilson (which is good enough for House by the way) then I have to ask, are you going to disprove him or Dr.Paul for that matter?

pingpong's photo
Mon 10/20/08 03:30 PM
Edited by pingpong on Mon 10/20/08 03:35 PM
Okay, I'll point out in bold italics the uncited statements. Will I debunk it? I dunno. Maybe tomorrow. For the moment I haven't even taken a position on whether or not it's true, but if you like I'll take a look at it tomorrow and see if it's correct. My initial reaction is that it sounds like BS.





Healing the Health-Care System
Lawrence D. Wilson, M.D., December 2001
first of all, where did you even find this?

HISTORY CAN OFTEN yield insights into our dilemmas. Health care is no exception. The Founders of America envisioned a health-care system based on principles of the dignity and liberty of every person. They were:

1. A right to work. England’s system of guilds and licenses kept many people out of the healing arts. America would allow anyone to become a doctor or to open a healing school or clinic.

2. A right to choice. America would permit a variety of healers and healing modalities. Benjamin Rush, physician to the Continental Army and a signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote, “To restrict the practice of medicine to only one class of men would constitute the Bastille of medicine.” where did he write this? he's mentioned, not cited. Unless there's a citation pointing to where the author found this information so that the reader can check and read the context, the reader is basically expected to take the author's word.

3. A limited role of government to protect the right to contract and to prevent fraud. Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution reads, “No state shall ... pass any ... law impairing the obligation of contracts.” Laws against fraud were to protect the health consumer. The government was not to play favorites and could not pay for, restrict, or subsidize any group or healing method.

How does this quote from the constitution back up what the author writes in the last line of this paragraph?

Free-market care
A few licensing laws existing at the time of the Revolution were soon repealed.uncited The three principles outlined above elevated America in the 19th century to the healthiest nation on earthuncited, although the American people were mainly poor immigrants. Innovation produced many new systems of healing. However, if you wanted to visit a witch doctor, it was your right. and you still have the right to visit a witch doctor today

Herbalists, nature-cure therapists, hydrotherapists, nutritionists, osteopaths, allopaths, homeopaths, and eclectic practitioners offered services. There were a variety of healing schools and clinics. No healing modality or group of healers had a legal advantage over the others. Whoever helped people the most prospered.

The large number of practitioners kept prices down and made health care very accessible to the population. There was no need for insurance. Organizations similar to consumers’ unions sprang up to inform people about the best doctors and the best methods of treatments. Certifying groups set standards for quality and training. uncited

Many people used private doctors. Others joined associations such as the Lions Club or the Order of Elks. They paid annual dues and their families were taken care of if they became ill or unable to work. Often these societies hired doctors called “lodge doctors” to care for their members. Government welfare later drove these societies out of the health-care business. uncited

Others in early America formed community health associations. These were cooperatives that hired doctors to take care of their members. A variety of church-supported, community-supported, and other private charities served those unable to pay for health care. uncited



The winds of change
Doctors at this time didn’t make much money. This angered one group — the allopaths, or drug doctors. In 1847, they formed the American Medical Association (AMA). A report submitted at the AMA convention in 1847 was unusually candid:
The very large number of physicians in the United States has frequently been the subject of remark.... No wonder that the merest pittance in the way of remuneration is scantily doled out even to the most industrious in our ranks.
The AMA decided to increase their members’ income by outlawing their competition. This is a standard way to raise prices, for it reduces the supply of a commodity. They would lobby the government for licensing laws. The laws would limit the number of doctors. In their excellent volume on American health care, Patient Power: Solving America’s Health-Care Crisis (Cato Institute, 1992)this is the first citation. my bad, there is at least one, not zero, John C. Goodman and Gerald L. Musgrave wrote,
Virtually every law restricting the practice of medicine in America has been enacted not on the crest of public demand, but due to intense pressure from the political representatives of physicians.
The AMA’s efforts culminated in 1910 when Abraham Flexner, a former school director and not a physician, was commissioned by the Carnegie Foundation to evaluate medical schools. He was the brother of Simon Flexner, head of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research. Working closely with the AMA, he completed a survey of medical schools that was practically a carbon copy of a report the AMA had done several years before. The report found most schools to be “substandard.”

Flexner and his AMA friends convinced Congress that to “improve health care,” most healing schools should be closed. They also recommended licensing of doctors and hospitals and government subsidies to drug-medicine schools and drug research. uncited

Because of heavy lobbying and because people were frightened into thinking they needed licensing, these measures were adopted by Congress and state legislatures between 1900 and 1920. The medical-licensing laws violated Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution.how so? To circumvent the Constitution, they invoked another legal doctrine — the “police powers” of the state.

The new laws caused the number of medical schools to fall from 140 in 1900 to 77 in 1940. The closings meant fewer physicians were trained. Schools either were shut down or failed because their graduates could no longer get a license. All schools that accepted women were closed. All but two schools that trained blacks were closed. Only the drug-medicine schools remained. uncited

This was the end of the right to work , the end of the right to choosehow so?, and the end of an impartial attitude by the government. A monopoly drug-medicine cartel replaced freedom of choice in health care.

Later, chiropractors, physical therapists, psychologists, and others would push through their own licensing laws, joining the horrendous system that persecuted them for so many years.

Interestingly, the medical monopoly was imposed about the same time as the FDA (1906) and the IRS and Federal Reserve System (1913).



From bad to worse
Costs began to rise because of a doctor shortage, the outlawing of less-costly healing methods how were these methods outlawed? you do realize that you can still go see a homeoquack, I mean homeopath...and all those others today, right?, and monopoly laws. For instance, in Mexico one can walk into a laboratory and have one’s cholesterol level checked. In America, one needs a doctor’s permission to go to a laboratory and a second doctor visit to obtain the result. A $10 test can cost you $100.

In the 1930s, a group of doctors started the first modern health-insurance company — Blue Cross and Blue Shield — as a way to keep their hospitals full. By the 1960s, pressure was brought on the government to do something about rising costs. Few people remembered it was government intervention (licensing laws) that created the mess in the first place.

In response, Congress enacted Medicare and Medicaid around 1967. They were hailed as the mark of an advanced and compassionate nation. However, the official U.S. government health statistics show that costs exploded after 1967, and this continues today.

A physician who worked in an emergency room at that time told me that when Medicare and Medicaid passed, prices tripled overnight. Essentially, the government told hospitals and doctors to charge whatever they wished and the government would pay for it.

Not only did doctors raise their prices dramatically, patient demand for services skyrocketed with the new “free” health system. Market controls and common sense were removed, replaced by an Alice-in-Wonderland “free-lunch” mentality. Exploding demand for services further drove up prices.

Health-care costs in America doubled between the 1960s and the early 1970s from about $35 billion to about $70 billion. This obviously couldn’t continue indefinitely. Instead of repealing the government programs that were causing the mess, in 1983 Congress changed Medicare, adopting what are called DRGs or diagnostic-related groups. This replaced the cost-plus system with fixed reimbursement for different categories of illness. Since then, many more restrictions, rules, and penalties have been added to rein in the costs.

None of the rules have stopped the spiraling costs. How can they, when the cartel is still firmly in control, there is little competition and few market forces at work, and responsibility for health care remains shifted from the individual to the government? These factors guarantee failure. The authors of the book Why We Spend Too Much on Health Care (1992) summarized it well when they wrote, “Government’s entry into the health care market dramatically expanded the volume, intensity and price of health care.”

Also to control costs, Edward Kennedy sponsored the HMO Act of 1973. The idea was to herd everyone into “managed care.” The law forced employers with more than 25 workers to offer an HMO option and offered $373 million in subsidies to start HMOs.

HMOs and other managed-care options have failed to control costs for the same reasons. The medical monopoly remains intact, and consumers don’t control their health care. Now Kennedy wants a patient’s bill of rights to fix the system. It won’t work either, but it will destroy the privacy of medical records.

It is interesting to note that our senators and congressmen are not subject to the health-care laws they pass for us. They have their own health-care system. The Federal Employees Health Benefits Program is wonderful, with more than 20 choices of health-care plans.

Another consequence of the government-sponsored monopoly is the overuse of dangerous surgery and drugs, instead of safer methods. In a landmark article, the Journal of the American Medical Association recently revealed that medical mistakes are now the third leading cause of death in America, just behind cancer and heart disease. Aside from the human cost, malpractice costs are enormous.

Many people believe the real intent of the patient’s bill of rights is to destroy the HMOs so that Americans will believe they have no choice but to adopt socialized medicine. Before discussing a better solution, let’s examine socialized medicine.



Socialized medicine
The first socialized medical system began in Germany on January 1, 1884 under Kaiser William I. Its purpose was to displace the ideas of the Enlightenment and reinvigorate support of the monarchy by forcing everyone into one state-controlled system of medical care. The program spread to other European nations in the early 20th century. It was accelerated and further centralized by Adolf Hitler. As Melchior Palyi explained,
The ill-famed Dr. Ley, boss of the Nazi labor front, did not fail to see that the social insurance system could be used for Nazi politics as a means of popular demagoguery, as a bastion of bureaucratic power, [and] as an instrument of regimentation.
Many people say to me, “Universal free health care sounds pretty good.” I ask, “Do you really think it is free? Do you really think it will be universal?” That is never how it works. Just ask any Canadian or Englishman. Canadians pay an extra 15 percent tax on everything they buy, and their system is still failing. The right to free health care becomes the right to stand in line for what the government decides to give you.

Socialized medical systems require large, costly bureaucracies. Government administration is five to ten times the cost of private-sector administration. Special interests always infiltrate the bureaucracy, so it rapidly becomes corrupt. Doctors find ways to defraud the system, so massive paperwork is required in an attempt to control fraud.

They also require high taxes. Including time spent and fees for lawyers, accountants, and tax preparers, individuals and companies in America spend more to comply with the tax laws than the income tax actually collects. That does not sound like an efficient system. Taxes, of course, are collected under the threat of force. That hardly sounds like a compassionate system.

While the IRS code and regulations are only some 10,000 pages, the Medicare law is 110,000 pages. Socialized medicine would be a jumbo form of Medicare. Are you sure that is what you want? Do you really think a Washington bureaucrat knows better than you do which healing modality and how much care is best for you? When you go to the doctor, do you really want to pay for a swarm of paper-pushers to monitor every aspect of the transaction?

I think the Germans had it right. Socialized medicine is not about health. It is a government power grab to control a trillion-dollar industry and a critical area of people’s lives. It would also further entrench the drug monopoly, ensuring poor quality care and high prices. It appears compassionate, but it is actually akin to the compassion of a Mafia boss. Driving costs through the roof, confiscating the money at gunpoint through taxes to pay for it, and establishing a wasteful system do not seem compassionate, charitable, or “advanced.”



Dismantling and repealing
The alternative to socialized medicine is to dismantle the monopoly. When special interests pass laws that do not serve the public, eventually they must be repealed. America did this with the trucking industry, the phones, the airlines, and many others.

Getting rid of the medical-licensing laws, HMO laws, and government subsidies to medical schools and drug research would terrify the monopolists but it would return the health system to health and sanity. Competition would increase, prices would drop, insurance might not even be necessary, and access to care would increase.

Lower-cost alternative health-care methods, now shut out of mainstream medicine, would be given a chance. In case replacing mandatory licensing with private certification seems odd to you, here is what Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman wrote,

I am persuaded that licensure has reduced both the quantity and quality of medical practice.... It has reduced the opportunities for people to become physicians, it has forced the public to pay more for less satisfactory service, and it has retarded technological development.... I conclude that licensure should be eliminated as a requirement for the practice of medicine.
Lori B. Andrews, professor of law and Norman and Edna Freehling Scholar, Chicago-Kent College of Law, explained,
Licensing has served to channel the development of health care services by granting an exclusive privilege and high status to practitioners relying on a particular approach to health care, a disease-oriented intrusive approach rather than a preventive approach.... By granting a monopoly to a particular approach to health care, the licensing laws may serve to assure an ineffective health care system.
I was trained within the monopoly system. I left it for the alternative health field because orthodox methods were unable to help my family with a cancer problem. Thus I have worked on both sides. Americans have been thoroughly misled about their medical-care system. Slowly, the same people are urging you to accept an inferior government-controlled system.

“Control” is the key word. The choice is whether to deregulate and return to a consumer-controlled health system or drift into a totalitarian system that isn’t working well anywhere in the world. Health-care goods are a commodity like any other. They will be rationed. Either you will control how to spend your health dollars, or the bureaucrats will decide for you.

The choice is yours. But make no mistake about it: your health and maybe even your life turn on it.




Okay, about midway through I got bored. I read the rest of the article once again, and the only actual cite that the reader can follow up on is the one from Cato. The rest are either mentions of names with no source, books with no authors, etc. Basically, it reads as an article by some whiny homeopath that's pissed that in order to be FDA approved you have to actually have proof that your medicine works. Frankly, I'm glad to live in a society where it is easy to distinguish between a doctor selling proven drugs and a doctor selling magic water. But anyway, I'll take a look at the factual claims of the article tomorrow.