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to the native indians of past generations before jesus was even born? and also all others born before him? if he is the only way to live eternally, then where are they?
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their spirits still fly, my friend, they still fly.....and they know, just like you and me....they know.
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Why? Who's Jesus
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Why? Who's Jesus A figment of some peoples imaginations |
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to the native indians of past generations before jesus was even born? and also all others born before him? if he is the only way to live eternally, then where are they? they are wailing and screaming in exquisite pain in a pit of brimstone. That goes for all the unbaptized babies too. (this is the christian mentality, isnt it nice?) |
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http://www.tbm.org/were_people_saved_before_christ.htm |
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http://www.tbm.org/were_people_saved_before_christ.htm Money grubbing,hypnotizing thieves |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Sat 09/13/08 10:28 PM
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well MS this is what you sent me to read
Today’s Question: So what happens to the people that are not Christians—I mean the people before Jesus? Did they go to hell? Melinda Fletcher Bible Answer: This question has bothered many compassionate Christians through the centuries. They rightly do not want to believe that God would cast everyone that was born before Christ into hell. That doesn’t seem fair! They are right! Gen 18:25 says, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” God never judges righteous people in the same way that He judges the wicked. It is clear throughout the ages, that many people, prior to Christ birth, lived good lives. The question is: How did they live such good lives without Christ saving them? The answer: they could not without salvation. So how could Christ save people before His coming to die on the Cross? Here is the answer: First of all, Christ birth was not the time that Christ existed. He has always existed, because He is God the Son; He just did not have a flesh and blood body prior to His birth. However, He is the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world (Rev 13:8). So before His birth, God credited Christ death as an “I owe you.” Just like you write down I owe you to someone, you promise that one day you will pay it. The same is true of God. Before Christ came to the earth, God promised all people that one day He will pay for their debt, and so he counted their debts paid even before Christ died. So how did He save them without the Holy Spirit regenerating them? Remember, Christ is the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24), and His wisdom has been available from the beginning of creation. By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations (Prov 3:19). Jesus is the one who laid the earth’s foundations. Through him all things were made (John 1:3). Jesus, prior to His birth, existed in the form of the wisdom of God. When someone “found Jesus” they found “wisdom.” This wisdom enabled people to live righteous lives, just as the Holy Spirit gives us this ability. People’s noble lives proved that they had touched Christ in some way, or should I say, Christ touched them in some way. The book of Proverbs is the book of Wisdom. I want you to notice that Solomon wrote nearly all the Proverbs, however, the last two chapters were written by two other men: Agur and King Lemuel. Search Israel’s biblical genealogy and you will notice that these two men are not mentioned in the Bible. A closer look at their names reveals that they were Gentiles and not Jews. How did Gentiles have a part in writing the Old Testament? Simple: wisdom is all inclusive. It belongs to all people who desire it. Agur wrote: “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.” (Prov 30:3) This was his humble way of saying that he did not know God in the same way as the Jews. Then he adds: “Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son?” (Prov 30:4) He did not know the name of God’s son, yet he had wisdom—enough that God would place his words in the Word of God. This shows you that non-Jews were saved outside of the Jewish system of sacrifices. When I look in the past before Christ was born, I discover many religious leaders and philosophers that had the wisdom of God, and so I conclude that they were saved by Christ. Consider Buddha: he lived 500 hundred years before Christ, yet he was enlightened by wisdom. Look at his eight-fold path and you will recognize much of the Sermon on the Mount. How did he get such truth before Christ was born? He received this truth simply because Christ came to him in the form of wisdom. Don’t misunderstand me: Buddha cannot save; only Christ can. I do not believe today's Buddhists are saved; only that if Buddha were alive today, he would be a Christian. The point is that I believe Christ saved Buddha and the evidence of his salvation was his wisdom. (Of course, only the Lord knows each heart, and He is the final Judge.) We could say this about some philosophers like Aristotle and Plato. They often showed the spark of wisdom that could only come from Christ. In fact the early church fathers used their writings to confirm the truth of the gospel, and that was one way the western world accepted the gospel. For those who want a clearer scripture to prove that non Jews were saved prior to Christ, then consider the words of our Lord: "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here." (Matt 12:42) Jesus plainly considered the Queen of Sheba to be saved, or else how could she judge the generation of Christ? What was the evidence that she was saved? She came to hear the wisdom of God spoken through Solomon. There is no evidence in Scripture or in history to suggest that the queen ever became a Jew. Her hunger for wisdom confirmed her acceptance of Christ. In conclusion, people prior to the birth of Christ were saved through Him by His wisdom. They were not saved in the sense of being born again and filled with the Spirit, but they were saved with the meaning of being forgiven by God. They did not enter heaven upon their death, because the way for heaven was not made available until Christ ascension, however they were in paradise (see Luke 16:19-31). During Christ ascension they were then carried into heaven with Him. That is where they are today—in heaven with Christ. TRIBO REPLY: is that your take on it? if so, then let me ask you this: why then can't people who are not wicked today as your article says, not be saved without accepting jesus? why would it even be necessary to send himself here to be slaughtered if he could save un-wicked people to begin with? and what is wicked? define what wicked is to god? and what percentage of people before him were what god concidered "savable" by having wisdom? and how much wisdom did you or do you have to have in order to meet the requirements? where's the cut off line a dollars worth gets you in but 99 cents won't? I've been hearing for months now that sin is what seperates of from god correct? now all of a sudden if you have "some" wisdom, at least back then you were saved correct? well then why not now? i see wisdom in some of gods sayings, i see wisdom in some of christ, so why is that not enough? |
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their spirits still fly, my friend, they still fly.....and they know, just like you and me....they know. for you my friend "nuwadohiyadu" [cherokee for peace] True Path Walkers Obligations of the True Path Walkers To bring back the natural harmony that humans once enjoyed. To save the planet from present practices of destruction. To find and re-employ real truth. To promote true balance between both genders. To share and be less materialistic. To become rid of prejudice. To learn to be related. To be kind to animals and take no more than we need. To play with one's children and love each equally and fairly. To be brave and courageous, enough so, to take a stand and make a commitment. To understand what Generations Unborn really means. To accept the Great Mystery in order to end foolish argument over religion. later my friend - "ulisigi uguyu" [dark owl] |
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Not just "some" wisdom Tribo..but the wisdom of Christ ,revealed to those back then , who SOUGHT after wisdom and truth... God revealed Himself to them.
Point is, God gives all a chance to know Him....even to those back then, before He came in the flesh. God is a merciful and Just God..and gives all a chance to be saved. Today, He reveals Himself to Us thru His WORD....For God IS the Word . Cause God has now already come to dwell among us.....He Now has Left Us His Word....so ALL can Now Get to Know Him Too .....thru His Word. God Has Revealed Himself to Us Today, thru His Word Now. God and the WORD are One. |
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MS:
Point is, God gives all a chance to know Him....even to those back then, before He came in the flesh. God is a merciful and Just God..and gives all a chance to be saved. TRIBO: so your saying """"everyone"""" had a chance to know god/jesus before he came is that correct? every person who ever lived before he came had a chance to know him personally?? And the interrem? the time between jesus life and death and then afterwards? before those who had not heard the good news, all the romans, greeks, africans, chinese, other asians, eskimos, american indians, SA indians, everyone else alive from the time of jesus' birth till the gospel reached what ever percentage it reached till now - did the "ALL" have a chanced to be saved? or hear of christ? or have gods wisdom? if these non hearer's were in the midst of batle protecting their familes,land,etc.. were these people concidred unwise? what percentage of people do you think were saved by wisdom before the time of christ? 10? 1000? 100,000? do you realize how many people lived and died before jesus appeared? any clue? lucyyyyyyyyyyy - you've got some splaining to do to ricky!!!!!!! |
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God put it in every man's heart , to know God.
Look at the world around you...look up at the stars in the sky....look at God's handiwork... yes..every man will marvel and wonder and seek God...cause God put that desire in every man's heart. Are you not seeking the truth yourself.. to know God? Even right now on this forum? And God will always make Himself known to ALL man, that seek Him...cause again..that desire to seek God ,is planted in every man's heart. NO Man is without excuse. Btw, every question you ask , has an answer found in God's Word. Seek God's Word..not a forum , to know Truth. |
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to the native indians of past generations before jesus was even born? and also all others born before him? if he is the only way to live eternally, then where are they? Well - since it is clear that the only way one does not get into heaven is by blaspheming the Holy spirit (the only unforgivable sin) - who's testimony is about Jesus - then that would mean they are incapable of commiting the only unforgivable sin. It is not ignorance (as in lack of knowing) of Jesus that keeps one from Heaven - but rebellion. Since there is no one around who can testify whether or not the Holy Spirit visited those who passed away before Jesus' time - there isn't even proof that the hypothesis that people pass away not knowing about Jesus even is viable. It is a presumption at best, and very humanistic to assume that any scenario born out of this presumption has a basis in sound logic. |
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well MS this is what you sent me to read Today’s Question: So what happens to the people that are not Christians—I mean the people before Jesus? Did they go to hell? Melinda Fletcher Bible Answer: This question has bothered many compassionate Christians through the centuries. They rightly do not want to believe that God would cast everyone that was born before Christ into hell. That doesn’t seem fair! They are right! Gen 18:25 says, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” God never judges righteous people in the same way that He judges the wicked. It is clear throughout the ages, that many people, prior to Christ birth, lived good lives. The question is: How did they live such good lives without Christ saving them? The answer: they could not without salvation. So how could Christ save people before His coming to die on the Cross? Here is the answer: First of all, Christ birth was not the time that Christ existed. He has always existed, because He is God the Son; He just did not have a flesh and blood body prior to His birth. However, He is the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world (Rev 13:8). So before His birth, God credited Christ death as an “I owe you.” Just like you write down I owe you to someone, you promise that one day you will pay it. The same is true of God. Before Christ came to the earth, God promised all people that one day He will pay for their debt, and so he counted their debts paid even before Christ died. So how did He save them without the Holy Spirit regenerating them? Remember, Christ is the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24), and His wisdom has been available from the beginning of creation. By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations (Prov 3:19). Jesus is the one who laid the earth’s foundations. Through him all things were made (John 1:3). Jesus, prior to His birth, existed in the form of the wisdom of God. When someone “found Jesus” they found “wisdom.” This wisdom enabled people to live righteous lives, just as the Holy Spirit gives us this ability. People’s noble lives proved that they had touched Christ in some way, or should I say, Christ touched them in some way. The book of Proverbs is the book of Wisdom. I want you to notice that Solomon wrote nearly all the Proverbs, however, the last two chapters were written by two other men: Agur and King Lemuel. Search Israel’s biblical genealogy and you will notice that these two men are not mentioned in the Bible. A closer look at their names reveals that they were Gentiles and not Jews. How did Gentiles have a part in writing the Old Testament? Simple: wisdom is all inclusive. It belongs to all people who desire it. Agur wrote: “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.” (Prov 30:3) This was his humble way of saying that he did not know God in the same way as the Jews. Then he adds: “Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son?” (Prov 30:4) He did not know the name of God’s son, yet he had wisdom—enough that God would place his words in the Word of God. This shows you that non-Jews were saved outside of the Jewish system of sacrifices. When I look in the past before Christ was born, I discover many religious leaders and philosophers that had the wisdom of God, and so I conclude that they were saved by Christ. Consider Buddha: he lived 500 hundred years before Christ, yet he was enlightened by wisdom. Look at his eight-fold path and you will recognize much of the Sermon on the Mount. How did he get such truth before Christ was born? He received this truth simply because Christ came to him in the form of wisdom. Don’t misunderstand me: Buddha cannot save; only Christ can. I do not believe today's Buddhists are saved; only that if Buddha were alive today, he would be a Christian. The point is that I believe Christ saved Buddha and the evidence of his salvation was his wisdom. (Of course, only the Lord knows each heart, and He is the final Judge.) We could say this about some philosophers like Aristotle and Plato. They often showed the spark of wisdom that could only come from Christ. In fact the early church fathers used their writings to confirm the truth of the gospel, and that was one way the western world accepted the gospel. For those who want a clearer scripture to prove that non Jews were saved prior to Christ, then consider the words of our Lord: "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here." (Matt 12:42) Jesus plainly considered the Queen of Sheba to be saved, or else how could she judge the generation of Christ? What was the evidence that she was saved? She came to hear the wisdom of God spoken through Solomon. There is no evidence in Scripture or in history to suggest that the queen ever became a Jew. Her hunger for wisdom confirmed her acceptance of Christ. In conclusion, people prior to the birth of Christ were saved through Him by His wisdom. They were not saved in the sense of being born again and filled with the Spirit, but they were saved with the meaning of being forgiven by God. They did not enter heaven upon their death, because the way for heaven was not made available until Christ ascension, however they were in paradise (see Luke 16:19-31). During Christ ascension they were then carried into heaven with Him. That is where they are today—in heaven with Christ. TRIBO REPLY: is that your take on it? if so, then let me ask you this: why then can't people who are not wicked today as your article says, not be saved without accepting jesus? why would it even be necessary to send himself here to be slaughtered if he could save un-wicked people to begin with? and what is wicked? define what wicked is to god? and what percentage of people before him were what god concidered "savable" by having wisdom? and how much wisdom did you or do you have to have in order to meet the requirements? where's the cut off line a dollars worth gets you in but 99 cents won't? I've been hearing for months now that sin is what seperates of from god correct? now all of a sudden if you have "some" wisdom, at least back then you were saved correct? well then why not now? i see wisdom in some of gods sayings, i see wisdom in some of christ, so why is that not enough? Because you have been given more. These are biblical concepts being discussed here - so following that line, are you not aware of who Jesus was/is? What his purpose for coming here was? What the fall of man represents, and the redemptive work of the cross? For you - my friend, these are not concepts you are unaware of. Amoungst today's generation - who on the planet is not aware of the name of Jesus, and what it represents? A handful of tribes in South America, and the backwood Aboriginies of Australia? Who are these people who have "never heard of Jesus" that everyone is so concerned about. (Not you specifically Sam - I often see it posted as an hypothesis.) I would venture a guess that God has not "forgotten" anyone, and then all of a sudden is caught off guard when they are before Him upon their passing. It is not man who calls upon God while they are here on this earth - it is God who calls upon man. He is not apt to lose even one. These are biblical concepts. So - what are you asking here? Are you wondering if God will forget to inform anyone on the planet about the work of Jesus on the cross? That He will decide that there are large groups of people He cares nothing about? These are contrary idea's to scripture. "For God so loved the world - that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) Of course it goes on to say more, and further on in John - Jesus speaks of the generations not born yet who will not have the benefit of faith through seeing and walking with Him - but on the testamony of those very disciples he was praying for. God is not mocked. His ways are not our ways. We can envision scenario's where people would not have heard of Christ - and through hypothesis stand in judgement of God for condeming them? Is this understanding God? Or Pretextual subjectivity on literal grasping of a passage here and there in his word without extended exegesis. You can ask the question to all the posters here - but don't kid yourself about drawing any conclusions about what might be thought. I would say that you'll be lucky if even ANYONE has attempted the exegesis on this topic - let alone understand it once they've completed it. |
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I worked my @ss off at work, and I got a raise, someone said I earned that raise through God and only because of GOD
I studied my @ss off to get an A in a class, someone said I earned that A through God and only because of GOD I do good deeds, I'm a good person, and I help the less fortunate, someone said God is working through me my response: Hell no! I do all that MYSELF, I EARNED that raise I EARNED that A I do good deeds because I AM a good person, not because GOD programmed me to do sh*t this way, not because GOD is responsible for me being a good person. I HIGHLY disliked this person for never giving credit to me, for the things I did in life to better MYSELF. and that person was my own mother... God didn't put anything in Mans heart, Man has to find sh*t out on Man's own. There are bad people and good people out there, some are religious and believe in God, some aren't. It is ridiculous to say everyone is the way they are simply because God implanted something in their heart/mind/soul...if that were true...then God is also responsible for some of his worst creations who slaughtered people just for the sick thrill of it, who rape young girls for the fun...then one would debate that "oh it's because of Free will"...it's a never ending circle with people who think this way...making up some excuse for the way things are... It's so much easier and realistic to say..people are people..and leave it at that. I understand much pride can be taken in one's belief...but I'm just really sick of that type of mentality where a person thinks everything happens because of God... |
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and as to what happens, that's something each and every person in the world is supposed to answer for themselves and believe what they believe in. For me, all possibilities are open...since I can't say I for sure know anything related to death.
wherever they are at, I'm pretty sure it's not a bad place if they weren't evil individuals. If you are an evil individual [based on what you think evil is], I think a lot of different things can happen to you when you die...maybe hell exists and you go there, maybe you are tied to the earth filled with greed and hate so you forever roam the place you used to dwell in, because you cant "let go"...or maybe...being evil doesn't even matter... |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 09/14/08 02:18 AM
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God gives every man a chance to KNOW God.
But not only does God give every man a chance to Know God ... God ALSO Gave Every Man a FREE WILL.... to Choose ..... either to RECIEVE God or REJECT God. |
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to the native indians of past generations before jesus was even born? and also all others born before him? if he is the only way to live eternally, then where are they? they are wailing and screaming in exquisite pain in a pit of brimstone. That goes for all the unbaptized babies too. (this is the christian mentality, isnt it nice?) |
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http://www.tbm.org/were_people_saved_before_christ.htm Money grubbing,hypnotizing thieves |
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their spirits still fly, my friend, they still fly.....and they know, just like you and me....they know. HERE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COMIN FROM ONE MY SELF!!! |
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